51 replies to this topic

[nihilist]

as broadband has proliferated across the world, and many distros of linux are now very noob friendly, linux has taken a bigger hold in the desktops of the curious and geeks everywhere.

first, let me dispell some rumors that you might have heard:

linux does not turn you into a hacker/cracker. a change in operating systems does not magically give you exploits.
linux is not hard to install, leastwise the distros im going to talk about.
linux is not as reliant on the command line now as it was. you wont be using alot of linux/unix commands, if any.
package managers such as apt-get take away the dependency hell that was common with linux.

on the other [good] hand:

there are 6 active virii for the linux kernal. there are well over 10k for XP alone.
spyware is virutally non-existant. i havent encountered any and ive been using linux with firefox for almost 2 years now.
decent distros are much more stable than windows. no spontaneous lockups or crashes.
the software is generally open source, which means hundreds if not thousands of ppl have looked over it and submitted bugfixes. the code is as flawless as can be expected. the linux kernal for example, has 900 instances of bad code compared to windows clocking in at 6k. linux recently added several hundred thousand lines of code, and actually saw the bad code numbers drop.
no worries about your sister fouling your pc up. not only would she prolly not have any idea how to do it, but shed need the root [administrator] password.

linux is not for you:

if you like playing the newest games, or alot of games. WINE can play some games, but you arent going to be playing vice city or san andreas on it.
if you use your pc to watch dvds. generally, there isnt alot of titles that wont play on xine, the kde video player. but sometimes the ones they wont play really piss you off. such as when xine wont play fight club which is your fave movie of all time. there are other, some would say better media players out there however.


i got into linux because of the security aspect. since windows is too much for most ppl, i figure with linux no one has a chance of dicking with my stuff. the truth is, no ones looking to hack linux boxen if you have some script kiddie, or a identity thief it makes no sense to target linux. theres not enough of us to net a decent wage from ripping off. and from distro to distro proigrams vary so much that theres not one thing you can rely on to be able to pull.

in the computer world, you are the %2 that will survive anything. no seasonal worms will bother you this christmas.

if theres some interest in what im saying, ill continue. ill set you up with a distro that will allow you to keep windows and help you with the installation process in a general manner.

[emerson]

package managers such as apt-get take away the dependency hell that was common with linux.

if you use your pc to watch dvds. generally, there isnt alot of titles that wont play on xine, the kde video player. but sometimes the ones they wont play really piss you off. such as when xine wont play fight club which is your fave movie of all time. there are other, some would say better media players out there however.

I agree with most of what you said, but just have two somewhat minor quibles. I'd say the package managers help deal with dependency hell, but I still find it somewhat annoying. The big problem is that it solves things for programs that have packages, but I've never seen a distro with a repository that had every program I want. At home I use debian unstable for the sole reason of the larger package selection, easily the largest package repository I've ever come accross. Even with that though, I'd say I've had to compile somewhere around twenty programs or libraries myself. And when using packages too, there's another big downside that goes along with the second quoted statement. You're pretty much at the mercy of the package maintainer's prefrences, not those of the person who actually wrote the program.

Multimedia playback, for example, I've found to be annoying 'only' because of the way people compiled the packages. Most of the distros targeted at popular home use especially are so paranoid about codec support that it tends to come out somewhat limping along. DVD playback, as you bring up. I've seen that come up with SUSE's packages for example, after the long strugle to even get the decoding working, while I've never come up against that problem with debian.

On the other hand, as many things as I dislike about using packages....I'm also hooked on them. I've become lazy. One of the things I don't like about using non unix based systems at this point is having to manually update almost every single little program on my system. Updating almost every program on my install with either two clicks or a single command line statement is the killer feature for me. Bit of a pity too, because I first came to linux after BeOS died. Now that it's on the way back with Zeta and Haiku I feel a bit bad about not jumping back. On a technical level I think there's a lot about the upcoming version of Zeta that I like more than Linux, and that version should finally have enough ports and updates to let me do my normal activities on it. But, the kicker is lack of package management. I just can't get over the feeling of wasted time from downloading and installing updates by hand these days.

[lightowl]

I just can't get over the feeling of wasted time from downloading and installing updates by hand these days.

I know how you feel. Fortunately many software developers are starting to incorporate automatic updates directly into the software. That should in time make things a lot easier.

I am a Windows user because that's simply the system I know best and I feel most comfortable using. I know how to set up my system securely, so I don't have spyware and virus problems. Crashes are very rare. People who claims Windows XP crash often should take a look at their hardware. True, windows have a problem with handing faulty hardware and that results in crashing, but with working hardware I have never had a problem. I am talking WinXP here. Win2000 had a lot of problems that could not be excused.

I use Linux systems in server environments at work because they just perform that much better. We also use Windows servers and they are becoming increasingly more reliable, but performance is still lower.

Software is increasingly being compiled from the same source to various operating systems, and I suspect that in the future there wont be much difference between using a MAC or PC(Win) or PC(Linux). The most user-friendly user interface will prevail. At the time its the Window based GUI.

[Reno]

Ive used linux before. Ive installed mandrake, debian and used knoppix. But, after 5 years of working on computers, the thing that keeps me on windows is an inability to install drivers on linux. Im not a programmer, so I don't "make" drivers and no matter how long I sifted through long drawn out manuals I still wasn't able to find a straight answer on the installation of the average driver.

Now for windows, go anywhere on the net and type in installing drivers and you'll get a quick tutorial for the average user.

[jedsen]

i got into linux because of the security aspect. since windows is too much for most ppl, i figure with linux no one has a chance of dicking with my stuff. the truth is, no ones looking to hack linux boxen if you have some script kiddie, or a identity thief it makes no sense to target linux.

If you want security, you're better off using OpenBSD. Linux programmers only have a medium level of security in mind when writing code.
Re your second point: check your sshd logs; people all over the world are looking to break into your box.

[schwarzwald]

where are sshd logs kept and how the **** do i disable sshd?

[jedsen]

Your sshd logs are in /var/log/messages generally, unless you've set up syslog to route sshd warning/status messages to /var/log/sshd.log, or another file. Having separate log files is very useful; I know that Gentoo doesn't do this by default, but other distributions might.

To stop sshd, run "/etc/init.d/sshd stop" as root or through sudo. You can then run "rc-update del sshd default" to stop it from starting on every boot.

[jedsen]

Ive used linux before. Ive installed mandrake, debian and used knoppix. But, after 5 years of working on computers, the thing that keeps me on windows is an inability to install drivers on linux. Im not a programmer, so I don't "make" drivers and no matter how long I sifted through long drawn out manuals I still wasn't able to find a straight answer on the installation of the average driver.

Now for windows, go anywhere on the net and type in installing drivers and you'll get a quick tutorial for the average user.

What drivers are you talking about? I know that mandrake, debian and knoppix all will load the necesary drivers for your computer on boot (this technology is called "genkernel"). All but some specialty drivers (like Intel's "open source" but non gpl graphics and network drivers) and proprietary, binary-blob driver (like nvidia or ati graphics drivers) are built into the kernel as modules, and can be loaded after, or during boot. In this way, it is easier to install a driver under linux than windows; you just type "modprobe ", and there you are, no opening a browser, no downloading or running an installer. But most likely this is done for you by the distrubition of GNU/Linux you're using.

For these reasons, I question whether you've ever really used linux, or if you have, whether you read any documentation at all after having problems.

[Centurion]

I have been using Linux for the best part of six or seven years now and regardless of any hype thrown out by Linux zealots in the software community, it simply isn't up to par with windows regarding ease of use and simplicity for your average newbie.

New computer users expect software bought in stores to work as described. Yet as such software is invariably Windows software their best hope would be Wine or some other form of emulation. I have tried wine before and can vouch for the fact that for most useful programs, unless you're willing to spend hours trawling the net for solutions on forums, you should probably just give up.

For gaming Linux is also quite badly behind, another reason why I have only used it for a year at the longest as my sole operating system. Linux at present is all about compromise. Rather than using full featured itunes, you can use rhythmbox which is bare and unappealing. Rather than using Microsoft Office you can use Open Office which is slow and lacking in features.

I love Linux as an operating system for its hobby value, speed and relative power but when it comes to getting everyday things done properly it still just gets in the way.

[emerson]

The only thing I'm dead certain of when it comes to operating systems is that I have zero idea what another person should be using unless I've sat down and talked to them for at least an hour about the subject. The idea of knowing what another's preferences are better than he himself does seems a little too prevalent at times within a lot of the computer world.

[jedsen]

I have been using Linux for the best part of six or seven years now and regardless of any hype thrown out by Linux zealots in the software community, it simply isn't up to par with windows regarding ease of use and simplicity for your average newbie.

With distributions like Ubuntu out there, I must respectfully disagree with you.

New computer users expect software bought in stores to work as described. Yet as such software is invariably Windows software their best hope would be Wine or some other form of emulation. I have tried wine before and can vouch for the fact that for most useful programs, unless you're willing to spend hours trawling the net for solutions on forums, you should probably just give up.

One of the many great aspects of using Free and Open Source Software is you don't have to buy it! It's completely free! I'm not even joking. With this developement model, you can report a bug to the developers, and they will ideally fix it in the next release. With closed source software, you're stuck with buying another upgrade. But, I won't shed any tears for you if you find yourself in this situation.

For gaming Linux is also quite badly behind, another reason why I have only used it for a year at the longest as my sole operating system. Linux at present is all about compromise. Rather than using full featured itunes, you can use rhythmbox which is bare and unappealing. Rather than using Microsoft Office you can use Open Office which is slow and lacking in features.

It seems to me you haven't shopped around too much for alternatives to programs like rythmbox (six years now, eh?), which is still very early in developement. If you're looking for a full-featured music player, try amarok. I use 1.4a to sync music and podcasts with my ipod. It's totally sweet, and you don't have to install Quicktime (or anything) along with it. It seems you're happy having your software vendor do all your thinking for you.

I love Linux as an operating system for its hobby value, speed and relative power but when it comes to getting everyday things done properly it still just gets in the way.

Oh, there it is. Another person trying to drive users away by saying it's a hobbyist operating system. This myth has been dispelled many times before. If you want to get into it here, I'd gladly join you in a little friendly verbal tustle.

Edited by jedsen, 02 July 2006 - 03:20 AM.

[Centurion]

With distributions like Ubuntu out there, I must respectfully disagree with you

A fair comment, ubuntu is quite easy to use, I agree, but no moreso than windows and as I have outlined in my post, this advantage is negated when one attempts to do what most new users *expect* of a computer. Such as being able to install software found in stores which *will* meet their needs, as opposed to relying on software which *might* meet their needs.

One of the many great aspects of using Free and Open Source Software is you don't have to buy it! It's completely free! I'm not even joking. With this developement model, you can report a bug to the developers, and they will ideally fix it in the next release. With closed source software, you're stuck with buying another upgrade. But, I won't shed any tears for you if you find yourself in this situation.

Of course it is free, but what use is something which is free if it does not meet your needs. As for reporting bugs and hacking it yourself, anyone other than a devoted hobbyist simply does not have the time. Life takes precedence before the computing resources which support it. You do not need to shed tears for me friend, as I have used Linux, in all likelihood long before yourself and have found it unsuitable for my needs. It is typical of Linux zealots such of yourself to not only proclaim what suits your needs, but what suits those of others aswell. I will consider myself a better judge of my requirements, in spite of your arrogance.

It seems to me you haven't shopped around too much for alternatives to programs like rythmbox (six years now, eh?), which is still very early in developement. If you're looking for a full-featured music player, try amarok. I use 1.4a to sync music and podcasts with my ipod. It's totally sweet, and you don't have to install Quicktime (or anything) along with it. It seems you're happy having your software vendor do all your thinking for you.

And it would seem to be you are more interested in personal insult than an informed debate. I have used amarok, and to be honest It reeks of the same unfinished compromise that most free software does. Why should I seek an alternative to itunes which at best will be an equal, when itunes already does everything I want for me.

I resent your attempted insult of my intelligence, I do not require anyone to think for me, but if my software vendor meets my needs, I am happy to remain with said vendor as opposed to accepting compromise in order to make some sort of null point. Being a linux user was hip and cool 5 or 6 years ago, but it is tires me now. Viva La Revolution anyone?

Try playing any recent game on linux and you will see my point. Guild Wars for instance, even with your much hailed crossover office, takes hours of labour to get working and for what? Something which Windows can run natively. I have more important things to spend my time on than such pointless pursuits.

Oh, there it is. Another person trying to drive users away by saying it's a hobbyist operating system. This myth has been dispelled many times before. If you want to get into it here, I'd gladly join you in a little friendly verbal tustle.

Stop being so self righteous to portray yourself as some kind of gladiator of the combat of argument. Put simply, Linux does not meet my needs as well as Windows does. Linux offers at best a mediocre computing experience, with lacklustre clones of equivalent Windows software in most cases. I require an operating system that can run Windows software. If I want my nephew to be able to play one of the latest games, I'd rather install it on windows than spend hours getting it running on Linux.

If this myth has been dispelled, how come the most worthy assesor of this judgement, the market, has not ruled in favour of such a decision. Linux involves too much effort and the fad of being a rebel rousing "fight the power" character has long since faded for me.

I am not attempting to discourage others from using Linux. Or perhaps I am? Perhaps I am part of the evil Micro$haft alliance that scourges the computing scene. You may wave the flag for Linux as much as you wish, but do not presume to either insult my considerable intelligence by indulging in your "I am l33ter than thou!111one" nonsense or by attempting to determine my needs and tell me what best meets them. I know my needs and I am in the best position to know what meets them. Wave your flag elsewhere friend, your tirade of advocacy is misguided.

Edited by centurion, 14 August 2006 - 02:48 PM.

[Centurion]

I have used Linux for years, and helped O'Reilly develop their Linux Security Cookbook.  It focussed on helping them make their scripts and ideas cross-platform.  Even among the Linux security experts, half of their suggestions or examples failed to work on a different Linux than the one they were using.  They took a lot of tweaking and manipulation on each individual system to get working.  Since they had contributors from different systems, nobody could expect all the stuff in that book to work until we did a lot of work on it.  The incompatibilities between Linuxes is one of the big problems for most people trying to get into Linux.

A problem I had also noticed, fragmentation (with regard to distributions) is a serious issue. It is refreshing to see someone who can see the full picture with regard to linux, rather than to indulge in the overzealous blindly universal advocacy that most new recruits to linux become engaged in.

I have found Debian Linux to be an extremely useful and suitable platform for my distributed computing however, brings life and purpose to otherwise idle equipment.

*Damned quote bug!!!*

[JohnDoe1234]

Yeah, I've used linux off and on mostly for operating system development (thats right I've written my own hobbyist OS), I've tried to get more involved in it, but it seems that every time that I do I end up in dependency hell, things lock up, or are hap-hazardly put together, sure linux is great if your on a budget, or if you need some off-the-wall development tool, but when microsoft or apple offers me a tool that can meet all of my needs (as centurion would put it)... I'm happy with it, I don't need to search random servers for weirdly-named packages and drivers that either need to be compiled or are mean't for something entirely different. Also, I'm not as concerned with my mp3 player's name as I am with how well my compiler works or maintaining compatibility with 90+% of the world.

[Ghostrider]

This might become an open-source alternative to windows given enough time, looks promising so far, but I have not used it personally:

http://www.reactos.o...l/en/index.html

By the way, Open Office 2.x is much better than Open Office 1.x. I have M$ Office installed on my system and I use Open Office just as often. I like the export to PDF feature.

[Centurion]

By the way, Open Office 2.x is much better than Open Office 1.x.  I have M$ Office installed on my system and I use Open Office just as often.  I like the export to PDF feature.

Open office is an excellent piece of software. Almost my favourite second only to the gimp. I don't want anyone thinking im anti-linux here. I'm not. I just dont deem it suitable for my current desktop needs (particularly considering I already have a copy of winxp). In my systems oriented Information Systems modules I have often advocated the use of linux in non user facing equipment such as the use of squid servers.

[Centurion]

the code is as flawless as can be expected. the linux kernal for example, has 900 instances of bad code compared to windows clocking in at 6k.

Wonder how he knows that without having broken the law? Or without trusting a source so disreputable as to break the law....

[JohnDoe1234]

Um, how would one determine what an instance of "bad code" is in the first place? are you talking about inefficient code? or actual errors themselves?

Also, I've used reactOS a while back, and I've even incorperated some of it's code into my OS's kernel, it does show A LOT of promise, however, I think that if someone is looking for an open source alternative to windows because of its price... I would suggest googling the term "p2p client", "bearshare", "limewire"... etc... get my drift?

[jedsen]

A fair comment, ubuntu is quite easy to use, I agree, but no moreso than windows and as I have outlined in my post, this advantage is negated when one attempts to do what most new users *expect* of a computer. Such as being able to install software found in stores which *will* meet their needs, as opposed to relying on software which *might* meet their needs.

I don't know what you *expect* of your computer, but it's spyware, viruses, spending lots of dough because of vendor lock-in, then I bet you're very happy. If your *need* to spend tons of cash in store to feel good about yourself and you self-righteous economic values, then you'll be even more pleasently surprised. Linux has a plethora of software that suits the needs of the average user (music players, browsers, calendar apps, e-mail clients), the hobbyist (GNU Compiler Collection GDB), the bioinformaticist, and even old grandmas who are wouldn't know the difference between windows ans GNU/Linux.

Of course it is free, but what use is something which is free if it does not meet your needs. As for reporting bugs and hacking it yourself, anyone other than a devoted hobbyist simply does not have the time. Life takes precedence before the computing resources which support it. You do not need to shed tears for me friend, as I have used Linux, in all likelihood long before yourself and have found it unsuitable for my needs. It is typical of Linux zealots such of yourself to not only proclaim what suits your needs, but what suits those of others aswell. I will consider myself a better judge of my requirements, in spite of your arrogance.

I'll have to take your word that after 6 years of using GNU/Linux, it didn't meet your needs. I agree with you that life takes precedence over all else, but I also believe that using Free (as in Libre) and Open Source Software is part of a healthy, complete lifestyle. How do you advocate supplements to those who do not take them? If they laugh at you for spending hundreds a month on capsules filled with stuff they have a shakey understanding of, then do you laugh back, or try to convey your knowledge of the supplements? Well, you're using an operating system which costs hundreds, and of which you have a shakey understanding, so excuse me if I seem a little arrogant.

And it would seem to be you are more interested in personal insult than an informed debate. I have used amarok, and to be honest It reeks of the same unfinished compromise that most free software does. Why should I seek an alternative to itunes which at best will be an equal, when itunes already does everything I want for me.

Personally, I ditched itunes and os x recently on my macbook for a more stable Gentoo install. iTunes would not only import playlists of music, but also make an extra copy of the songs from that playlist. Now I use amarok (for my ipod), which automatically downloads artwork from amazon, and exports it to my ipod. For playing music, I use rhythmbox, because I like the native gtk interface better.

I resent your attempted insult of my intelligence, I do not require anyone to think for me, but if my software vendor meets my needs, I am happy to remain with said vendor as opposed to accepting compromise in order to make some sort of null point. Being a linux user was hip and cool 5 or 6 years ago, but it is tires me now. Viva La Revolution anyone?

Again, if you like shelling out cash to monopolies, then more power to you, friend.

Try playing any recent game on linux and you will see my point. Guild Wars for instance, even with your much hailed crossover office, takes hours of labour to get working and for what? Something which Windows can run natively. I have more important things to spend my time on than such pointless pursuits.

Yes, gaming on GNU/Linux is not as seemless and easy as it is on windows. I tell my serious gamer friends to stick with windows (they usually pirate it) when talking to them abiout free software (yes, they're usually interested).

Stop being so self righteous to portray yourself as some kind of gladiator of the combat of argument. Put simply, Linux does not meet my needs as well as Windows does. Linux offers at best a mediocre computing experience, with lacklustre clones of equivalent Windows software in most cases. I require an operating system that can run Windows software. If I want my nephew to be able to play one of the latest games, I'd rather install it on windows than spend hours getting it running on Linux.

Okay, I don't mind you insulting me, but when you insult Free Software, I get pissed. You're wrong on all counts.

If this myth has been dispelled, how come the most worthy assesor of this judgement, the market, has not ruled in favour of such a decision. Linux involves too much effort and the fad of being a rebel rousing "fight the power" character has long since faded for me.

Linux and other free projects such as Apaches and MySQL own the server market. The next step to world domination is the desktop market. We're starting to make some good progress with distributions like Red Hat, and Ubuntu. So, sink or swim, for the times they are-a-changin'.

I am not attempting to discourage others from using Linux. Or perhaps I am? Perhaps I am part of the evil Micro$haft alliance that scourges the computing scene. You may wave the flag for Linux as much as you wish, but do not presume to either insult my considerable intelligence by indulging in your "I am l33ter than thou!111one" nonsense or by attempting to determine my needs and tell me what best meets them. I know my needs and I am in the best position to know what meets them. Wave your flag elsewhere friend, your tirade of advocacy is misguided.

By blatantly bashing GNU/Linux in areas I know it does well, I know your either very stubborn and have never used it, or your GNU/Linux experience was nowhere near like mine, which would indicate your "considerable intelligence" is paltry in comparison to mine. But, seriously, why do you hate Linux so much? Did it rape your cat and damage your brain?

[Pablo M]

I must agree with Jedsen. I am a near know-nothing when it comes to any computer outside the Mac world, and I was able to easily install Ubuntu. I like it better than Windows and for many features it exceeds even the Macintosh. Not shelling out many $1000s for a basic Apple system is a huge plus in my book. No longer will I be locked into expensive, proprietary, mostly workable system (the Mac) or a less expensive, proprietary, mostly unworkable system (Windows). Now I will have an inexpensive, free and workable system in the form of Ubuntu. Hasta la victoria siempre!

[Centurion]

I don't know what you *expect* of your computer, but it's spyware, viruses, spending lots of dough because of vendor lock-in, then I bet you're very happy. If your *need* to spend tons of cash in store to feel good about yourself and you self-righteous economic values, then you'll be even more pleasently surprised. Linux has a plethora of software that suits the needs of the average user (music players, browsers, calendar apps, e-mail clients), the hobbyist (GNU Compiler Collection GDB), the bioinformaticist, and even old grandmas who are wouldn't know the difference between windows ans GNU/Linux.

Don't call me self righteous because my values don't agree with yours. You're the one trying to shove your values down others' throats. I'm just defending my right to use whatever system I please.

And whether or not grandmas know the difference doesn't make the system an equal in terms of usability. Despite your "plethora" It lacks many apps I need, hence my not using it.

Additionally, regarding the virii, spyware etc... http://www.us-cert.g...ins/SB2005.html

I'll have to take your word that after 6 years of using GNU/Linux, it didn't meet your needs. I agree with you that life takes precedence over all else, but I also believe that using Free (as in Libre) and Open Source Software is part of a healthy, complete lifestyle. How do you advocate supplements to those who do not take them? If they laugh at you for spending hundreds a month on capsules filled with stuff they have a shakey understanding of, then do you laugh back, or try to convey your knowledge of the supplements? Well, you're using an operating system which costs hundreds, and of which you have a shakey understanding, so excuse me if I seem a little arrogant.

Part of a free and healthy lifestyle? You're sounding like a breakfast cereal ad now. Shakey understanding? Go to linux.ie and search for Eddie Benton. I was writing articles on using Linux a long, long time ago, probably long before you took up your little operating system crusade.
You'll also notice that I was once like you, a nattering little advocate, but I grew up and moved in.
I'm also currently holding marks which have me on course for a first class degree in information systems. My understanding is not shakey and yes, you are indeed arrogant.

My father bought me this computer, the OS came included as part of the price (whether the price was increased or not to pay it doesn't matter, I have Windows, I use it, it *MEETS MY NEEDS* and I don't need some self righteous arrogant fool to tell me I live a "less complete lifestyle" or have "shakey understanding" because I don't conform to his ideals.

Personally, I ditched itunes and os x recently on my macbook for a more stable Gentoo install. iTunes would not only import playlists of music, but also make an extra copy of the songs from that playlist. Now I use amarok (for my ipod), which automatically downloads artwork from amazon, and exports it to my ipod. For playing music, I use rhythmbox, because I like the native gtk interface better.

Your choice of course. I'm glad it's working out for you.

Again, if you like shelling out cash to monopolies, then more power to you, friend.

1) If Linux meets everyone's needs so well as you claim, why does this monopoly exist?
2) Do you choose your os on the basis of market philantropy or its suitability to your particular use.

Okay, I don't mind you insulting me, but when you insult Free Software, I get pissed. You're wrong on all counts.

No I'm not, thats why you can't counter the argument. Get pissed if you want, it only shows the childlike tenacity with which you defend your great and noble cause. It'll pass when you have a life which might take precedence.

Linux and other free projects such as Apaches and MySQL own the server market. The next step to world domination is the desktop market. We're starting to make some good progress with distributions like Red Hat, and Ubuntu. So, sink or swim, for the times they are-a-changin'.

I'm not the server market. I'm part of the desktop market. I've said in this thread Linux makes for a powerful and stable server. This next step, will take linux a long long time. I'm going to wait until they finish making this step before I switch operating systems.

By blatantly bashing GNU/Linux in areas I know it does well, I know your either very stubborn and have never used it, or your GNU/Linux experience was nowhere near like mine, which would indicate your "considerable intelligence" is paltry in comparison to mine. But, seriously, why do you hate Linux so much? Did it rape your cat and damage your brain?

Linux.ie friend. Check it out. I was writing articles on Linux long before you came here. Insult my intelligence if you want, but i'll not lose any sleep at night pal. Take your tirade to someone who hasn't seen it all before!

Edited by centurion, 27 August 2006 - 01:16 PM.

[Centurion]

http://www.linux.ie/...ls/leafnode.php <-- 10th January 2002! Yeah, you're right, my experience is nowhere near yours, you are teh l33t!!11one! Like I said, friend, I've been through this childish little phase of yours and I know that it will pass.

You also make a fool of yourself by stating that experience indicates intelligence. It does not. Even if you did know more about Linux than me, all it proves is you have more free time. It is not a general indicator of intelligence.

You are so unbelievably arrogant that you believe anyone who disagrees with you must lack knowledge of Linux. You aren't the first person to use this operating system. You're also not the first I've heard trying to shove it down people's throats. As the above article proves, I was able to use linux long before this argument arised. Just because I don't find that I want to use it doesn't mean I don't know how and its further evidence of your simple approach to this matter.

This is so pathetic and laughable it just needs repeating:

By blatantly bashing GNU/Linux in areas I know it does well, I know your either very stubborn and have never used it, or your GNU/Linux experience was nowhere near like mine, which would indicate your "considerable intelligence" is paltry in comparison to mine. But, seriously, why do you hate Linux so much? Did it rape your cat and damage your brain?

Error 1) I have never used it? Erm article disproves that pal.
Error 2) I don't know nearly as much as you? I knew enough to assess the capabilties of the system back in 2002, how much must one know to be right in your books? Also why is it relevant whether I know as much as you do? This isn't a penis competition.
Error 3) If I know less about Linux, my intelligence < yours. WRONG. Knowledge != intelligence.

In relation to Error 3, everyone here who hasn't used or does not use Linux must be paltry in intellectual terms compared to our enlightened friend. This includes many of our highly intelligent members such as Nate, Zoolander, Funk, as far as I know they use Windows, but they must be beneath the incredibly intelligent "leetnux" brigade, surely as their knowledge of Linux is not as in depth.


You see anyone who doesn't want to use Linux as "uninitated" and you're some sort of illuminati. It's tiresome.

Edited by centurion, 27 August 2006 - 12:46 PM.

[Centurion]

(Attached is the final nail in the "You can't have used Linux if you don't agree with l33t old me" coffin)

Attached Files

•  liorg.PNG   29.12KB   0 downloads

[jedsen]

Don't call me self righteous because my values don't agree with yours. You're the one trying to shove your values down others' throats. I'm just defending my right to use whatever system I please.

And whether or not grandmas know the difference doesn't make the system an equal in terms of usability. Despite your "plethora" It lacks many apps I need, hence my not using it.

Additionally, regarding the virii, spyware etc... http://www.us-cert.g...ins/SB2005.html

So, you used to be a GNU/Linux advocate, and now you're an anti-Linux-advocate advocate?[thumb] Way to go, it seems your values have changed to be even more foolish and ignorant than in your youth. Re: your third [airquote]point[/airquote], that page has been dispelled as a myth by a helpful poster on slashdot. They list each bug that exists in several distributions of linux as a different bug. Here's what he wrote:

Removing the duplicate lines is enlightening;
cat usoft.txt| sed -e 's/(U|updated)//g' | sort | uniq | wc
    747 lines
cat unix.txt| sed -e 's/ *(Updated) *//g' | sort | uniq | wc
    1050 lines

That brings them almost in line with each other. Of course, we could do a half-assed job of cutting things down to just the OS to remove concerns about all the bundled apps;

cat usoft.txt| grep Microsoft | sed -e 's/(U|updated)//g' | sort | uniq | wc
    160 lines
cat unix.txt| egrep '((K|k)ernel)|(GNU)|(XFree86)' | sed -e 's/ *(Updated) *//g' | sort | uniq | wc # GNU/Linux, not Linux!
    167 lines

Of course, any of this would be far too much work for the author of the article.

Also, keep in mind that the Unix category also includes all Unixes, including OS X, Solris, SCO Unix, etc.

And why would a corporation with a closed-source model want to publicily release all the vulnerabilities in their software? To raise their stock value? Sure, that makes perfect sense! Linux, and it's bundled apps are more likely to have bugs found for the very reason it's free in the first place: open source.

Part of a free and healthy lifestyle? You're sounding like a breakfast cereal ad now. Shakey understanding? Go to linux.ie and search for Eddie Benton. I was writing articles on using Linux a long, long time ago, probably long before you took up your little operating system crusade.
You'll also notice that I was once like you, a nattering little advocate, but I grew up and moved in.
I'm also currently holding marks which have me on course for a first class degree in information systems. My understanding is not shakey and yes, you are indeed arrogant.

My father bought me this computer, the OS came included as part of the price (whether the price was increased or not to pay it doesn't matter, I have Windows, I use it, it *MEETS MY NEEDS* and I don't need some self righteous arrogant fool to tell me I live a "less complete lifestyle" or have "shakey understanding" because I don't conform to his ideals.

I will need a picture or scan of your Ireland photo ID, to prove you're not assuming the name of an innocent person, ala LifeMIrage.

Information systems, eh? Aww, was the CS program too hard for you? Too much math and programming? Well, I'm getting top marks at a major university here in the states. I may even make it into the Bioinformatics program, if I can be in the top 5 (which is doubtful, actually, there are too many smart people here).

So, you're father forked over the money to Microsoft? Well, that takes a little but of the blame off of you, I guess. But not too much, as you can still send your install CDs into Microsoft, and get your money back.

1) If Linux meets everyone's needs so well as you claim, why does this monopoly exist?
2) Do you choose your os on the basis of market philantropy or its suitability to your particular use.

1) Microsoft has engaged in several, borderline illegal "partnerships" with hardware vendors to make sure that their slap-crappy OS was included as the default install OS (like the one you bough). This basically consisted of bullying the hardware vendor into the contract.

2) Both! With linux you can have your cake an eat it too.

No I'm not, thats why you can't counter the argument. Get pissed if you want, it only shows the childlike tenacity with which you defend your great and noble cause. It'll pass when you have a life which might take precedence.

You made only insults, and no argument.

I'm not the server market. I'm part of the desktop market. I've said in this thread Linux makes for a powerful and stable server. This next step, will take linux a long long time. I'm going to wait until they finish making this step before I switch operating systems.

You're what we in the in-crowd call, [airquote]sheeple[/airquote]. [lol]

Linux.ie friend. Check it out. I was writing articles on Linux long before you came here. Insult my intelligence if you want, but i'll not lose any sleep at night pal. Take your tirade to someone who hasn't seen it all before!

Again, a photo ID is required to confirm your identify. Don't forget to use ms paint, or whatever it's called, to black out the personal id numbers.

[JohnDoe1234]

So, you used to be a GNU/Linux advocate, and now you're an anti-Linux-advocate advocate? Way to go, it seems your values have changed to be even more foolish and ignorant than in your youth.

How did you come to that conclusion? Re-Read his posts, you obviously missed something, he has maintained the position that Linux has its place and purpose, but that people don't need to take the responsibility to shove it down people's throats.

Information systems, eh? Aww, was the CS program too hard for you? Too much math and programming? Well, I'm getting top marks at a major university here in the states. I may even make it into the Bioinformatics program, if I can be in the top 5 (which is doubtful, actually, there are too many smart people here).

What? Does it matter what course of studies he pursued? no... Why are you side-tracking the argument? keep it on subject.

1) Microsoft has engaged in several, borderline illegal "partnerships" with hardware vendors to make sure that their slap-crappy OS was included as the default install OS (like the one you bough). This basically consisted of bullying the hardware vendor into the contract.

Um... I think it would be helpful if you defined "Borderline Illegal", because if these companies signed into accordance with these contracts they must have obviously seen some sort of potential in the deal. Also, windows is no 'Slap-Crappy' OS, Do you really think that if windows was a Slap-Crappy OS that 90+% world's computer users would have adopted it? Even if Linux was first to tap the market, and suddenly windows shows up, it would be much easier to "enlighten" people to window’s superiority than it is for you to convince people that Linux is superior to windows.

So, you're father forked over the money to Microsoft? Well, that takes a little but of the blame off of you, I guess. But not too much, as you can still send your install CDs into Microsoft, and get your money back.

Blame? Explain yourself, what is wrong with buying a piece of software that you think worth $129? I thought that he had already established that windows meets his needs.

You're what we in the in-crowd call, [airquote]sheeple[/airquote].

Sheeple? funny... and you can't even get the [airquote] air-quotes [/airquote] working. (Just messing with you [lol] )

I am all for open-source, however, there is no need for a war against Microsoft or any of it's products. It is completely pointless. Microsoft was able to use it's operating system as a leverage point in the '90s to get to where it is now... A giant corporation with billions to spend any way that it pleases (e.g. Charities, A.I. research, software development). Windows offers a stable un-cluttered platform for individuals (Sheeple and People) to express their creativity without having to worry about what FS their OS supports, or how to use virtual consoles.

Note: I have probably not been using Linux as long as most people posting here (2003), but I feel I am familiar enough with the OS to be heard.

[jedsen]

How did you come to that conclusion? Re-Read his posts, you obviously missed something, he has maintained the position that Linux has its place and purpose, but that people don't need to take the responsibility to shove it down people's throats.

What am I shoving down your throats? The title of this thread is "Interested in Linux?", so I assume anyone who reads it is in fact interested in Linux. If anything it's people like you who have hijacked this thread and turned it into an argument. Not that I mind, it's just that you're completely off base here.

What? Does it matter what course of studies he pursued? no... Why are you side-tracking the argument? keep it on subject.

We were trying to establish who has the bigger computer penis, and I foolishly took part. Thanks for keeping me in line, bro.

Um... I think it would be helpful if you defined "Borderline Illegal", because if these companies signed into accordance with these contracts they must have obviously seen some sort of potential in the deal. Also, windows is no 'Slap-Crappy' OS, Do you really think that if windows was a Slap-Crappy OS that 90,% world's computer users would have adopted it? Even if Linux was first to tap the market, and suddenly windows shows up, it would be much easier to "enlighten" people to window’s superiority than it is for you to convince people that Linux is superior to windows.

Their "potential" is market leverage through a monopoly. I think people see computers as a means to an end, and are mostly unaware of the consequences of their actions (or inaction). Yes, I think Windows sucks. I've used it, hated it, and now discovered a whole philosophy in line with my own, that doesn't call me a criminal for downloading an essential piece of software. And it's superior to boot.

Blame? Explain yourself, what is wrong with buying a piece of software that you think worth $129? I thought that he had already established that windows meets his needs.

Wow, $139 dollars, while the GNU/Linux people are trying to give away industrial strength software. He must be off his rocker.

Sheeple? funny... and you can't even get the  [airquote] air-quotes [/airquote]  working.  (Just messing with you  [lol] )

Yeah, you're right, this proprietary board software really is crap.

I am all for open-source, however, there is no need for a war against Microsoft or any of it's products. It is completely pointless. Microsoft was able to use it's operating system as a leverage point in the '90s to get to where it is now... A giant corporation with billions to spend any way that it pleases (e.g. Charities, A.I. research, software development). Windows offers a stable un-cluttered platform for individuals (Sheeple and People) to express their creativity without having to worry about what FS their OS supports, or how to use virtual consoles.

Note: I have probably not been using Linux as long as most people posting here (2003), but I feel I am familiar enough with the OS to be heard.

Anti-trust suit anyone? The fact is Bill Gates and the Market don't give a lfying **** about you, or anyone you love. Grow up a little a realize that capitalism is not about philanthropy (at least, not for it's own sake, but for publicity's sake), but about greed.

Windows is not stable. Unless you compile your own kernel and have an IQ of 50, then there will be no problems with filesystem support. Virtual terminals are not default in most distributions, and they're as easy as pressing ctrl-alt-f(n).

[Centurion]

Your argument has become so degraded now that it's almost unworthy of a response. You've went from software advocation to waving the flag of communism.
Yes capitalism is about greed, but to quote Gordon Gekko "Greed is good".
Maybe you should take a look at Bill Gates' charity work and the donation made by Warren Buffett. There's the good of capitalism for you. Capitalism built your country, made the chair that you're sitting on and the computer you're typing at. Your anti capitalism views are similar to some kind of phase of teen rebellion.

Market leverage is irrelevant. If computer vendors could sell computers with Linux on them to the public, many more would be doing it as it reduces overhead and increases profit.

And yes, you are shoving Linux down people's throats. I have said that it is *not for me* yet you continue to attempt to tell me what is for me. It's flattering you're willing to spend your time attempting to convert me, but you're as persistent and annoying as a jehovah's witness at my doorstep. Spend your time helping those who use and want to use Linux. There are many new users who need your help and will appreciate it. I, however do not appreciate being irritated.

Become a full member and you will see I am who I say I am. I don't post ID on public forums for you or anyone else.

Additionally, computer science isn't too hard for me, but I don't wish to be a code monkey to be honest, I'd rather be the consultant telling people like you what to do, it means I get paid more and I develop less eye strain (and acne).

Nobody really cares what "philosophy" you have found. We have our own. One of mine is that computers are indeed a means to an end. A tool to enhance the lives of those who have them, not a life for those who have no cause.

You call me foolish and ignorant, yet you spew the same old tired rhetoric into this thread. I wonder how many of the windows users on this forum are truly paltry in terms of intellect compared to you, as you have claimed.

Edited by centurion, 29 August 2006 - 10:48 AM.

[Centurion]

Don't get me wrong here mate, I don't hate Linux. I have it installed on this PC as part of a dualboot setup. I am particularly fond of gnome and having various system monitor indicators in my top toolbar. I also find the virtual desktops to be a lifesaver.

I don't use my computer for very much, it's just a general tool for me. My days of hobbyism and experimentation are long gone, it has lost its fascination for me.

I use my computer for web browsing. Fine firefox on Linux does that perfectly, ditto for TB and mail.

I use msn messenger to chat with my friends. The best current alternative is GAIM which is lacking in features. I like to be able to send voice clips, see a friend's webcam etc. This isn't the fault of the Linux community because they can't be expected to work with closed code and systems but I still find myself compromising on this point if I use Linux.

I use MS Office regularly. While Open Office is a great piece of software it doesn't support all the features which I and those who communicate with me use.

My nephew plays games on my computer such as guild wars and age of empires. I don't have the free time to get them working with wine nor am I inclined to pay codeweavers to run the games on Linux.

While these reasons are few in number, it's enough to keep me with Windows because it does what I need it do and even at best with these problems solved Linux would only do the same.

I still dont see why you insist on telling other people what they need, particularly when they make it clear they're tired of hearing it.

[jedsen]

Haha, out of insults? You're so full of yourself, I will also forego a direct response. I'm not a communist, and I'm not trying to convert your jaded self to GNU/Linux. I'm merely trying to defend it in the eyes of the others, who, "interested in Linux," might click on the thread and read about people's experience with it. We don't need you repeating your tired argument, shoving your under-developed philosophy down our throats. Please, just leave this alone, you've lost already.

[Centurion]

How have I lost? I have succesfully defended my right to use Windows based on facts, you have resorted to anti capitalist nonsense! My argument is far from tired, and you are also outnumbered. My philosophy is not underdeveloped, it just isn't in agreement with yours. I'm not full of myself, you are the one saying that if someone doesn't agree with you their either underdeveloped or have "paltry" intelligence!