96 replies to this topic

[Danail Bulgaria]

There is a concept, that everything physical eventually gets destructed.

 

Can you comment that?

[Castiel]

Unless proton decay is proven, universal collapse or radical proton tearing vacuum occurs, everything physical won't be destroyed.   Also we've the issue of the possibility of eternal black holes.

 

In cellular automata systems there are systems that effectively regenerate or reconstitute forms.   Even if matter ceases to be it can possibly exist in cycle with energy such that it is reconstituted.

Edited by Castiel, 16 September 2016 - 08:58 AM.

[Danail Bulgaria]

In my view all possible threats for being alive are preventable. What is needed is technologies to be developed.

 

The human kind has proven, that can make things in order not to die and to prevent destruction of materisl objects, and also to repair damaged material objects.

 

All needed for a threat for the material world to be defeated is wish, time and effort of the people to do it.

[shadowhawk]

While everything that is purely physical dies nothing is annihilated or destroyed.  A tree can and will die but the elements that make up the tree, though decayed will still exist though the tree is dead.  I have a physical body which will die.  The elements that make up my body will still exist and we will burry them as the body rots.  If I am only my physical body that is the end of life.  The worm awaits.

[Danail Bulgaria]

Defeating death caused my aging is not impossible. At least one creature did it - the immortal jellyfish.

 

For the rest of the alive things this is the situation now.

But who proved you that this will last forever? The human kind is on a way to find its own way of immortality. Sooner or later the people will stop dying from aging.

[shadowhawk]

There are many long lived things but then you are not a jellyfish.  To a fruit fly we must seem immortal.  We are already overcoming diseases of aging and who could be against that.  Just washing our hands was a big improvement.  But ultimately defeating death?  Not when the entire cosmos is dying.

[ceridwen]

Why is the universe dying? Maybe humans are here to find a way to save that too.

[shadowhawk]

   So what are your ideas to stop the second law?

[ceridwen]

Perhaps that is for AI or enhanced humans to discover in the future

[Castiel]

There are many long lived things but then you are not a jellyfish.  To a fruit fly we must seem immortal.  We are already overcoming diseases of aging and who could be against that.  Just washing our hands was a big improvement.  But ultimately defeating death?  Not when the entire cosmos is dying.

 

Not when the earth is flat... oh wait it was so according to the knowledge of the times once.   Whether the cosmos is dying or not, we do not truly know, we don't even have a ToE, and even some physicists say current theories demand the defeat of death and eternal life.

[Danail Bulgaria]

There are many long lived things but then you are not a jellyfish.  To a fruit fly we must seem immortal.  We are already overcoming diseases of aging and who could be against that.  Just washing our hands was a big improvement.  But ultimately defeating death?  Not when the entire cosmos is dying.

 

It may not be available for us - exactly those people, who live in the year of 2016, but it will be available for the people in the future.

 

All possible reasons of death will be defeated is a belief - correct. There is no a certain proof about that.

 

But everything alive and physical is destined to die is also a belief, because until now the life as general hasn't been destroyed. If everything alive dies, inevitably and irreversibly, without any hope of being revived, e.g. if the life stops existing, then you may say "Here is a proof - everything alive and material is destined to die" but until then, it is only your belief.

 

I can imagine people in the future to design and build a gigantic closed energy system, in which no energy and matter is being lost, according to the physical laws, and start living inside it, despite the cold and dark death of the universe.

Proove, that it is impossible such an artifitial closed system to be built in the very distant future, lets say after 1 million years.

[shadowhawk]

Perhaps that is for AI or enhanced humans to discover in the future

 

Perhaps and perhaps not.  No idea?  OK
 

[shadowhawk]

 

There are many long lived things but then you are not a jellyfish.  To a fruit fly we must seem immortal.  We are already overcoming diseases of aging and who could be against that.  Just washing our hands was a big improvement.  But ultimately defeating death?  Not when the entire cosmos is dying.

 

It may not be available for us - exactly those people, who live in the year of 2016, but it will be available for the people in the future.

 

All possible reasons of death will be defeated is a belief - correct. There is no a certain proof about that.

 

But everything alive and physical is destined to die is also a belief, because until now the life as general hasn't been destroyed. If everything alive dies, inevitably and irreversibly, without any hope of being revived, e.g. if the life stops existing, then you may say "Here is a proof - everything alive and material is destined to die" but until then, it is only your belief.

 

I can imagine people in the future to design and build a gigantic closed energy system, in which no energy and matter is being lost, according to the physical laws, and start living inside it, despite the cold and dark death of the universe.

Proove, that it is impossible such an artifitial closed system to be built in the very distant future, lets say after 1 million years.

 

You gave no hope for yourself and the future is wishful thinking.  Neither of these are serious reasons death or the second law will be defeated.  It is unlikely, contrary to established science. and every purely human being has died.  That is not a belief but a fact.  The cosmos is filled with dead burnt out stars and the ones still functioning are burning out.  I cant argue with a run away imagination that thinks its fantasy is reality.  You want me to argue with a fools construct that will supposedly occur a million years from now?  Didn't happen the last 100 million years, what makes you think it will the next million?  Neither of us will be here to know who is right.  If we are only physical the worm awaits.

[shadowhawk]

 

There are many long lived things but then you are not a jellyfish.  To a fruit fly we must seem immortal.  We are already overcoming diseases of aging and who could be against that.  Just washing our hands was a big improvement.  But ultimately defeating death?  Not when the entire cosmos is dying.

 

Not when the earth is flat... oh wait it was so according to the knowledge of the times once.   Whether the cosmos is dying or not, we do not truly know, we don't even have a ToE, and even some physicists say current theories demand the defeat of death and eternal life.

 

Are you again speaking of the Christian Tipler?  He didn't believe everything is physical.

[Castiel]

 

 

There are many long lived things but then you are not a jellyfish.  To a fruit fly we must seem immortal.  We are already overcoming diseases of aging and who could be against that.  Just washing our hands was a big improvement.  But ultimately defeating death?  Not when the entire cosmos is dying.

 

Not when the earth is flat... oh wait it was so according to the knowledge of the times once.   Whether the cosmos is dying or not, we do not truly know, we don't even have a ToE, and even some physicists say current theories demand the defeat of death and eternal life.

 

Are you again speaking of the Christian Tipler?  He didn't believe everything is physical.

 

 

From his interviews it seemed to suggest that biological humans will not conquer space but that it will be ais, and that we will be resurrected in simulations as computational power goes to infinity.  Perhaps I'm misremembering.
 

[Danail Bulgaria]

 

 

There are many long lived things but then you are not a jellyfish.  To a fruit fly we must seem immortal.  We are already overcoming diseases of aging and who could be against that.  Just washing our hands was a big improvement.  But ultimately defeating death?  Not when the entire cosmos is dying.

 

It may not be available for us - exactly those people, who live in the year of 2016, but it will be available for the people in the future.

 

All possible reasons of death will be defeated is a belief - correct. There is no a certain proof about that.

 

But everything alive and physical is destined to die is also a belief, because until now the life as general hasn't been destroyed. If everything alive dies, inevitably and irreversibly, without any hope of being revived, e.g. if the life stops existing, then you may say "Here is a proof - everything alive and material is destined to die" but until then, it is only your belief.

 

I can imagine people in the future to design and build a gigantic closed energy system, in which no energy and matter is being lost, according to the physical laws, and start living inside it, despite the cold and dark death of the universe.

Proove, that it is impossible such an artifitial closed system to be built in the very distant future, lets say after 1 million years.

 

You gave no hope for yourself and the future is wishful thinking.  Neither of these are serious reasons death or the second law will be defeated.  It is unlikely, contrary to established science. and every purely human being has died.  That is not a belief but a fact.  The cosmos is filled with dead burnt out stars and the ones still functioning are burning out.  I cant argue with a run away imagination that thinks its fantasy is reality.  You want me to argue with a fools construct that will supposedly occur a million years from now?  Didn't happen the last 100 million years, what makes you think it will the next million?  Neither of us will be here to know who is right.  If we are only physical the worm awaits.

 

 

I gave no hope for myself, but gave hope for the human kind. 

 

I am not talking about violating the second law of thermodinamics. I am talking about NOT violating any thrmodinamic law, but uniting with them - by designing a closed system with no possibilities of matter and energy to escape. 

 

You  can't proove with certaince the cold death of the entire universe, because it has not happened yet. It can be 100% sure it will happen when it happen. 

You can't proove everything alove will die because of that, for the very same reason - it has not happened yet. 

[platypus]

All forms are temporary. 

[Danail Bulgaria]

Is it possible a previous form to be rebuilt again from its components? 

[Castiel]

Is it possible a previous form to be rebuilt again from its components? 

 

Depends what you mean, the brain rebuilds things like synapses and membranes constantly by replacing the underlying molecular components.

 

Unless something stops or recollapses the universe, brains are hypothesized to pop out of the vacuum, even ones with all your memories and personality.   If a brain can pop out, so can a brain hooked to a computer in a simulation and even a population of brains hooked to a computer, at least I don't see why not.    It has been said that these brains if nothing interferes with the future evolution, will far outnumber those who evolved in the previous physical universe.
 

The problem here is whether a physically identical rebuilding of you is you you, or if it is a copy of you and not really you.   Essentialism says that no it isn't you but a copy of you, that at most you may need gradual replacement, rebuilding, to remain you.   But essentialism leads to paradoxes and inconsistencies, if we do away with essentialism, we're left with a far more horrifying prospect.

 

If digital physics is true, then essentialism in a sense must be false, the same pattern can occur in multiple locations and will be as much you as you are, the thing is each version of you will have amnesia regards the other versions of you.

Edited by Castiel, 21 September 2016 - 01:26 PM.

[shadowhawk]

 

 

 

There are many long lived things but then you are not a jellyfish.  To a fruit fly we must seem immortal.  We are already overcoming diseases of aging and who could be against that.  Just washing our hands was a big improvement.  But ultimately defeating death?  Not when the entire cosmos is dying.

 

It may not be available for us - exactly those people, who live in the year of 2016, but it will be available for the people in the future.

 

All possible reasons of death will be defeated is a belief - correct. There is no a certain proof about that.

 

But everything alive and physical is destined to die is also a belief, because until now the life as general hasn't been destroyed. If everything alive dies, inevitably and irreversibly, without any hope of being revived, e.g. if the life stops existing, then you may say "Here is a proof - everything alive and material is destined to die" but until then, it is only your belief.

 

I can imagine people in the future to design and build a gigantic closed energy system, in which no energy and matter is being lost, according to the physical laws, and start living inside it, despite the cold and dark death of the universe.

Proove, that it is impossible such an artifitial closed system to be built in the very distant future, lets say after 1 million years.

 

You gave no hope for yourself and the future is wishful thinking.  Neither of these are serious reasons death or the second law will be defeated.  It is unlikely, contrary to established science. and every purely human being has died.  That is not a belief but a fact.  The cosmos is filled with dead burnt out stars and the ones still functioning are burning out.  I cant argue with a run away imagination that thinks its fantasy is reality.  You want me to argue with a fools construct that will supposedly occur a million years from now?  Didn't happen the last 100 million years, what makes you think it will the next million?  Neither of us will be here to know who is right.  If we are only physical the worm awaits.

 

 

I gave no hope for myself, but gave hope for the human kind. 

 

I am not talking about violating the second law of thermodinamics. I am talking about NOT violating any thrmodinamic law, but uniting with them - by designing a closed system with no possibilities of matter and energy to escape. 

 

You  can't proove with certaince the cold death of the entire universe, because it has not happened yet. It can be 100% sure it will happen when it happen. 

You can't proove everything alove will die because of that, for the very same reason - it has not happened yet. 

 

 

i AM NOT TRYING TO "PROVE," anything with the limitations you are putting on it.  Science does not work that way.  What is the EVIDENCE we now have?  That is the basis for my statement, everything only physical dies.  You are right, LaLa has not happened yet. What has happened fits what I have said and is the evidence that supports it.
 

[shadowhawk]

 

 

 

There are many long lived things but then you are not a jellyfish.  To a fruit fly we must seem immortal.  We are already overcoming diseases of aging and who could be against that.  Just washing our hands was a big improvement.  But ultimately defeating death?  Not when the entire cosmos is dying.

 

It may not be available for us - exactly those people, who live in the year of 2016, but it will be available for the people in the future.

 

All possible reasons of death will be defeated is a belief - correct. There is no a certain proof about that.

 

But everything alive and physical is destined to die is also a belief, because until now the life as general hasn't been destroyed. If everything alive dies, inevitably and irreversibly, without any hope of being revived, e.g. if the life stops existing, then you may say "Here is a proof - everything alive and material is destined to die" but until then, it is only your belief.

 

I can imagine people in the future to design and build a gigantic closed energy system, in which no energy and matter is being lost, according to the physical laws, and start living inside it, despite the cold and dark death of the universe.

Proove, that it is impossible such an artifitial closed system to be built in the very distant future, lets say after 1 million years.

 

You gave no hope for yourself and the future is wishful thinking.  Neither of these are serious reasons death or the second law will be defeated.  It is unlikely, contrary to established science. and every purely human being has died.  That is not a belief but a fact.  The cosmos is filled with dead burnt out stars and the ones still functioning are burning out.  I cant argue with a run away imagination that thinks its fantasy is reality.  You want me to argue with a fools construct that will supposedly occur a million years from now?  Didn't happen the last 100 million years, what makes you think it will the next million?  Neither of us will be here to know who is right.  If we are only physical the worm awaits.

 

 

I gave no hope for myself, but gave hope for the human kind. 

 

I am not talking about violating the second law of thermodinamics. I am talking about NOT violating any thrmodinamic law, but uniting with them - by designing a closed system with no possibilities of matter and energy to escape. 

 

You  can't proove with certaince the cold death of the entire universe, because it has not happened yet. It can be 100% sure it will happen when it happen. 

You can't proove everything alove will die because of that, for the very same reason - it has not happened yet. 

 

We have a closed system right now thyat is suffering a heat death.  Everything only physical dies.

[shadowhawk]

Is it possible a previous form to be rebuilt again from its components? 

 

Not the SAME form.
 

[Danail Bulgaria]

 

i AM NOT TRYING TO "PROVE," anything with the limitations you are putting on it. Science does not work that way. What is the EVIDENCE we now have? That is the basis for my statement, everything only physical dies. You are right, LaLa has not happened yet. What has happened fits what I have said and is the evidence that supports it.

 

 

We have a closed system right now thyat is suffering a heat death. Everything only physical dies.

 

 

 

Not the SAME form.
 

 

 

 

So, you have no direct evidences (since you can't proove it experimentally), that the heat death of the universe will happen,

and even though, you claim it will happen.

 

You have red about the evidence, that there are ageless species, and still you claim, that everything alive ages.

 

You claim, that you know from the thermodinamics the closed and the opened systems, and you are supposed to know, that in the closed systems no matter and energy is being lost, and even though you claim, that we live in a closed system, that is suffering a heat death. If you mean the solar system and the sun, they are not closed. The Earth constantly receives new energy from the sun, and constantly disperses energy into the opened space (the cosmos) in a form of infra-red light. We live in a opened thermodynamis system, needs a constant supply of energy.

 

 

Science constantly changes, and the things the people can do are becomming more and more. Everything you envision as impossible today will be possible in the very distant future.

[Diocletian]

Very intersted topic, lately I was thinking that heat death of Universe is sure thing and human race is doomed, but interesting to read that it might not happen after all, and who knows even if it happens maybe future humans will find solution to this, like creating new Universe and migrating into it or some other ideas.

[Danail Bulgaria]

The human kind has 10¹⁰⁰ years to adapt somehow. 

 

At least I understand it like that. 

 

In wikipedia ( https://en.wikipedia..._the_universe )it writes: 

 

"10¹⁰⁰ years,^[12] so entropy can be produced until at least that time. After that time, the universe enters the so-called dark era. "

 

 

 

 

How will it adapt and will it adapt at all, depends entirely on the people themselves. 

 

What we can now invision in our fantasy is making a new universe or building a closed thermodinamic system, which eternally converts and recycles energy and matter without any loss. 

 

The other thing is the most impossible, and it would be to violate the thermodynamic laws in the future, e.g. to make a perpetum mobile. 

[shadowhawk]

 

 

i AM NOT TRYING TO "PROVE," anything with the limitations you are putting on it. Science does not work that way. What is the EVIDENCE we now have? That is the basis for my statement, everything only physical dies. You are right, LaLa has not happened yet. What has happened fits what I have said and is the evidence that supports it.

 

 

We have a closed system right now thyat is suffering a heat death. Everything only physical dies.

 

 

 

Not the SAME form.
 

 

 

 

So, you have no direct evidences (since you can't proove it experimentally), that the heat death of the universe will happen,

and even though, you claim it will happen.

 

You have red about the evidence, that there are ageless species, and still you claim, that everything alive ages.

 

You claim, that you know from the thermodinamics the closed and the opened systems, and you are supposed to know, that in the closed systems no matter and energy is being lost, and even though you claim, that we live in a closed system, that is suffering a heat death. If you mean the solar system and the sun, they are not closed. The Earth constantly receives new energy from the sun, and constantly disperses energy into the opened space (the cosmos) in a form of infra-red light. We live in a opened thermodynamis system, needs a constant supply of energy.

 

 

Science constantly changes, and the things the people can do are becomming more and more. Everything you envision as impossible today will be possible in the very distant future.

 

There is evidence for the second law and you can demonstrate it experimentally.  There are no "ageless" species.  There are long lived species which are not immune to death by all kind of things.You are creating a straw man criticizing what I have said, meaning you think "claim" you do know!!!!  And where does the sun get its energy?  Stars burn out because they have a finite amount of energy.  Don't you believe that.  The sun and earth and everything in them will die.  Science is a method not a conclusion.  It is ill defined and its conclusions often wrong.  We do know some things and beliving in lala does not mean everything is true.  Some things are wrong such as your view we are not a closed system.  Either we are or not and your fantasy has nothing to do with it.

 

[Danail Bulgaria]

There is evidence for the second law and you can demonstrate it experimentally.  There are no "ageless" species.  There are long lived species which are not immune to death by all kind of things.You are creating a straw man criticizing what I have said, meaning you think "claim" you do know!!!!  And where does the sun get its energy?  Stars burn out because they have a finite amount of energy.  Don't you believe that.  The sun and earth and everything in them will die.  Science is a method not a conclusion.  It is ill defined and its conclusions often wrong.  We do know some things and beliving in lala does not mean everything is true.  Some things are wrong such as your view we are not a closed system.  Either we are or not and your fantasy has nothing to do with it.

 

 

I am not talking about violating of the thermodinamic laws, I simply believe, that people will make a closed thermodynamic system, suitable for living in the next  10¹⁰⁰ years until the heat death of the universe 

https://en.wikipedia...of_the_universe

 

 

There IS at least one ageless specie, and it is the ageless jellyfish. 

https://en.wikipedia...itopsis_dohrnii

 

 

All kinds of death can be defeated. If the ageless jellyfish is being protected from external factors, it can survive unlimited time. 

 

 

For the death of the sun, there are at least one billion years for the human kind to adapt. For example to move to another star system.

http://phys.org/news...lion-years.html

[shadowhawk]

Immortality is eternal life, the ability to live forever.  What can't live forever dies.  The immortal jelly fish can and does die and while longlived is not immortal just as I have said all along to anyone listening.  We have repeatedly, can presently and probably will be hit by an asteroid which like past asteroids will cause an extinction event long before the Sun sends everyone and everything to hell. This will occur long before the sun burns out.  Jellyfish can and will die.  But then the obvious, you aren't a jellyfish.   You are a human and right now only a very small percent live over 110.  If you are a skinny small woman perhaps you will make it before the worm..  You scarcely have enough time to make it to the nearest star which holds no hope.  So you are going to stop evolution.  Evolution requires death so the species can evolve and survive.  You seem to believe you can stop that

[Danail Bulgaria]

Stop carying that much for me

If I don't have the luck and I die, I'll die, just like you, and just like everybody. If I have the luck, I will survive enough time until the stem cells transplantable parts come to repair and rejuvenate me.

 

Everything you write is not undefeatable. You like evidences, right. Here is one - the Earth has been hit by large asteroids before, and this hasn't extinguoshed the entire life on the Earth, even without any technologies to save the life. So, there are evidences, that an asteroid impact can't extinguish the entire life on our planet, and the life as general will survive. There are certainly technologies to predict an asteroid impact before it happened, and there are some plans for technologies to destroy the asteroid, or redirect it in another direction.

 

There is no reason for death, that to be undefeatable. This is what you refuse to understand.

 

 

 

 

P.S.

 

I copy-paste my previous response to the life threats, that you pointed, for just in case, if you by any occasion decide to forget them and start writing them again

 

I am not talking about violating of the thermodinamic laws, I simply believe, that people will make a closed thermodynamic system, suitable for living in the next 10¹⁰⁰ years until the heat death of the universe

https://en.wikipedia...of_the_universe

 

There IS at least one ageless specie, and it is the ageless jellyfish.

https://en.wikipedia...itopsis_dohrnii

 

All kinds of death can be defeated. If the ageless jellyfish is being protected from external factors, it can survive unlimited time.

 

For the death of the sun, there are at least one billion years for the human kind to adapt. For example to move to another star system.

http://phys.org/news...lion-years.html

[Danail Bulgaria]

P.S. 2

 

Thanks to other posts, I reached to the conclusion, that there are no direct evidences for the existence of the human evolution today.

 

I suppose, that it has stopped when a certain technological threshold has been passed, after which there is no need for evolving in order to battle with beasts and to find food, e.g., I suppose, that the human evolution has stopped quite a long time ago because of absence of evolution preassure. The more the technological progress advances, the less preasure there will be. We didn't evolve larger ears, we invented telephone. And thanks to the telephone invention, we will never evolve large ears.