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Combining Doug McGuff's and Arnolds ideas into one work-out (Thoughts/Opinions)

doug mcguff body by science arnold shock the monkey

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#1 TheFountain

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 10:10 PM


Since I have only received information from podcasts I have watched and a couple of videos showing Dr. McGuff's work out itself, there are a couple things that I am unsure about and maybe some of you folks could fill in the blanks. Such as, the amount of resistance the guys are using in his videos? 

 

So, first of all, the way I did it was I combined his concept with some tidbits of Arnolds "Shock the muscle" method.

 

What I would do is put as much weight as I can handle going 4-5 Seconds up and 4-5 seconds down on the chest press (in this case, for me, about 200 pounds) and then I would literally not be able to push that weight again the second time, which necessitated me lowering the weight by about 15-30 pounds each time, where I would be able to get maybe 2 reps out of it at slow speed. Then I would lower the weight again by another 15-20 pounds and do 3-4 reps at slightly faster speeds, and again and again till the muscles have completely had enough.

 

The initial load that I could barely manage at slow speed (4-5 seconds up and 4-5 seconds down) is a variation of Mcguff's methods and the subsequent lowering of the weights and then doing 2-3 reps at progressively faster speeds was Arnolds method of shocking the muscle (As stated in Pumping Iron and other videos).

 

To warm up for this work out I did some lateral raises with light weights and some dumbbell curls, starting at like 55 pounds and then lowering to about 40, then 30 for more reps till near failure or muscle fatigue.

 

I will call this the McArnold method.

 

So I after the warm up I did the variation I mentioned in the beginning and I continued this with about 4 basic exercises, the back row, the tricep curl machine, the bicep curl machine and the back extension machine. 

 

I was able to make my work out almost an hour because as I stated I began with a warm up that lasted about 20 minutes. But definitely each time I finished the larger muscle group exercises my muscles were stiff and sore and even today as I type this, I feel them trying to recover, which is a good sign based on all the literature I have read.

 

What's your opinions on this? I plan to do it two or three times a week (depending on how quick the recovery turn over is) and I wanna see what my results are within about a month of right now. 

 

I wanna know ideas and opinions.

 



#2 johnross47

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 06:57 PM

Sounds scary, but if you're on machines with built-in safety or have somebody to spot you I suppose it might be OK. I lift at home on my own and wouldn't want to try the initial maximum press.


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#3 aconita

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 09:30 PM

I think that since you are obviously a beginner in weight training sticking to some more orthodox method for a while will be safer and more productive.

 

About the mentioned method itself it sounds like a total waste of time anyway.

 

By the way feeling sore the next day means nothing in terms of efficacy of the workout.

 

Do you have any clue about what you'll aim to achieve?

 

 


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#4 TheFountain

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 11:53 PM

Sounds scary, but if you're on machines with built-in safety or have somebody to spot you I suppose it might be OK. I lift at home on my own and wouldn't want to try the initial maximum press.

What's the scary part?

 

Elaborate?



#5 TheFountain

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 11:55 PM

I think that since you are obviously a beginner in weight training sticking to some more orthodox method for a while will be safer and more productive.

 

About the mentioned method itself it sounds like a total waste of time anyway.

 

By the way feeling sore the next day means nothing in terms of efficacy of the workout.

 

Do you have any clue about what you'll aim to achieve?

Not a beginner.

 

Been using weights for some time. But not for bodybuilding or quick muscle building. 

 

I have till now been using moderate weights as a supplement to MMA training and cycling.

 

But for now I am trying to see how this method will work and what the results will be. 

 

My aim is to see how long it takes to recover from these kinds of work out and also what the results will be in a one to two month period. Also what the effects of strength will be.

 

You're telling me this is useless? Why?



#6 aconita

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Posted 29 October 2016 - 06:57 AM

It is a waste of time because it is not an efficient way to achieve any reasonable goal I can think about. .

 

You have a quite weird approach to training, instead of setting a goal and try to achieve it in the smartest way possible you "invent" a routine just to see where it leads to.

 

That's to me looks like a real waste of time....

 

As someone else wrote before me if you aim at nothing that's exactly what you will achieve.

 

I might suggest you to make very clear what you want as this is the most important part of your training in the first place, then we might discuss about ways to achieve it. 


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#7 TheFountain

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Posted 30 October 2016 - 07:29 PM

It is a waste of time because it is not an efficient way to achieve any reasonable goal I can think about. .

 

 

But why? 

 

That does not explain your position.

 

My goal is to overload the muscle fibers so they are forced to recover even if I only work out twice a week. 

 

I want to see how efficient such a work out is with shocking the muscles and creating reasonable results through recovery. 

 

It's about strength and efficiency. 



#8 aconita

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 04:13 AM

My goal is to overload the muscle fibers so they are forced to recover even if I only work out twice a week.

 

That's not a goal but a method.
 

I want to see how efficient such a work out is with shocking the muscles and creating reasonable results through recovery.

 

It's about strength and efficiency.

What kind of strength?

 

Efficiency to do what?

 

Training results are specifically related to the method, your method is not related to any specific reasonable results because it has faults regarding achieving most of them.

 

Since it would be a long story to explain why about all the single specificity of results it would be much easier to determine what you are trying to achieve and explaining you why it doesn't work or how to make it working.

 

For example:

 

getting stronger at lifting a maximal weight

 

getting stronger at lifting a maximal weight as fast as possible

 

getting stronger at developing maximal strength in the shortest amount of time possible

 

recovering the most maximal strength in a very short time

 

recovering speed in a very short time

 

recovering explosiveness in a very short time

 

getting stronger at lifting a sub maximal weigh for reps

 

getting faster at lifting a sub maximal weight

 

getting more explosive

 

getting resilient

 

developing endurance

 

and the list goes on and on....

 

Yes, some of these qualities do overlap and certain degrees of specificity are reasonable only for very advanced athletes but the principles can't be ignored even by the novice amateur.

 

If training for a sport determine which quality needed in that specific sport do you lack of and want to improve, than we might discuss the methods to achieve it.

 

Assuming you mean getting stronger at lifting a maximal weight once in the bench press and assuming you want to achieve that without causing hypertrophy in order to stay in the same weight class you are:

 

- to warm up with lateral rises and curls is not movement specific for the bench press and anyway single joint movements are not a reasonable choice for warm ups

 

- to do it to fatigue or near failure is not what a warm up is, it might be referred as pre-exaustion which is not an efficient way for any goal, leave alone getting stronger at maximal lifts

 

- 20 minutes is too much time for a warm up, in fact is not a warm up but a work out

 

- starting out cold with all the weight you can handle is a very bad idea, it will expose you to injury and you are not able to lift nearly as much weight as you could with a smarter approach

 

- going so slow in the negative part of the lifting is going to stimulate hypertrophy (which you don't want since the whole method seems very far from an hypertrophy oriented one) and hinders maximal strength because partially negating the coiling effect and because being too tiring

 

- going slow in the positive part of the lifting doesn't allow for maximal weights, it is not efficient at involving the fastest muscular fibers which are the strongest and bigger, it is not efficient to pass sticking points in the lift

 

- pyramiding down at 1-4 reps is a quite weird way to proceed, I doubt it is going to be efficient to achieve anything but a great deal of trouble recovering

 

- calling "4 basic exercises" the back row, the tricep curl machine, the bicep curl machine and the back extension machine is quite a statement...:)

 

Unless you are on a wheel chair 4 basic movements are eventually squat, horizontal press, vertical press and rowing or pull ups.

 

Machines don't train efficiently functional qualities because don't involve stabilizer muscles and generally speaking are better left alone.

 

As you can see if the goal is maximal strength the flaws are way too many to call it a reasonable efficient method, all to be seen if maximal strength is what you aim for or if it is what you most need for your sport.

 

Legs are completely neglected, single joint movements trained at very low reps will likely cause injuries and not what single joints movements are meant for.

 

Overall your training plan seems VERY poor to me but at least you have been smart enough to ask for critics. 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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#9 TheFountain

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 09:26 PM

 

My goal is to overload the muscle fibers so they are forced to recover even if I only work out twice a week.

 

That's not a goal but a method.
 

I want to see how efficient such a work out is with shocking the muscles and creating reasonable results through recovery.

 

It's about strength and efficiency.

What kind of strength?

 

Efficiency to do what?

 

Training results are specifically related to the method, your method is not related to any specific reasonable results because it has faults regarding achieving most of them.

 

Since it would be a long story to explain why about all the single specificity of results it would be much easier to determine what you are trying to achieve and explaining you why it doesn't work or how to make it working.

 

For example:

 

getting stronger at lifting a maximal weight

 

getting stronger at lifting a maximal weight as fast as possible

 

getting stronger at developing maximal strength in the shortest amount of time possible

 

recovering the most maximal strength in a very short time

 

recovering speed in a very short time

 

recovering explosiveness in a very short time

 

getting stronger at lifting a sub maximal weigh for reps

 

getting faster at lifting a sub maximal weight

 

getting more explosive

 

getting resilient

 

developing endurance

 

and the list goes on and on....

 

Yes, some of these qualities do overlap and certain degrees of specificity are reasonable only for very advanced athletes but the principles can't be ignored even by the novice amateur.

 

If training for a sport determine which quality needed in that specific sport do you lack of and want to improve, than we might discuss the methods to achieve it.

 

Assuming you mean getting stronger at lifting a maximal weight once in the bench press and assuming you want to achieve that without causing hypertrophy in order to stay in the same weight class you are:

 

- to warm up with lateral rises and curls is not movement specific for the bench press and anyway single joint movements are not a reasonable choice for warm ups

 

- to do it to fatigue or near failure is not what a warm up is, it might be referred as pre-exaustion which is not an efficient way for any goal, leave alone getting stronger at maximal lifts

 

- 20 minutes is too much time for a warm up, in fact is not a warm up but a work out

 

- starting out cold with all the weight you can handle is a very bad idea, it will expose you to injury and you are not able to lift nearly as much weight as you could with a smarter approach

 

- going so slow in the negative part of the lifting is going to stimulate hypertrophy (which you don't want since the whole method seems very far from an hypertrophy oriented one) and hinders maximal strength because partially negating the coiling effect and because being too tiring

 

- going slow in the positive part of the lifting doesn't allow for maximal weights, it is not efficient at involving the fastest muscular fibers which are the strongest and bigger, it is not efficient to pass sticking points in the lift

 

- pyramiding down at 1-4 reps is a quite weird way to proceed, I doubt it is going to be efficient to achieve anything but a great deal of trouble recovering

 

- calling "4 basic exercises" the back row, the tricep curl machine, the bicep curl machine and the back extension machine is quite a statement... :)

 

Unless you are on a wheel chair 4 basic movements are eventually squat, horizontal press, vertical press and rowing or pull ups.

 

Machines don't train efficiently functional qualities because don't involve stabilizer muscles and generally speaking are better left alone.

 

As you can see if the goal is maximal strength the flaws are way too many to call it a reasonable efficient method, all to be seen if maximal strength is what you aim for or if it is what you most need for your sport.

 

Legs are completely neglected, single joint movements trained at very low reps will likely cause injuries and not what single joints movements are meant for.

 

Overall your training plan seems VERY poor to me but at least you have been smart enough to ask for critics. 

 

I forgot to mention the leg press in there.

 

I started with 400 pounds on the press, doing it extremely slow 5-6 seconds up, and 5-6 seconds down, then gradually lower the weight till 2-3 reps and so on and so forth till failure, just like the other exercises.

 

My hope is that this routine will confuse the muscle fibers into the arnold shockology method and then produce the greatest possible results in the shortest possible time span.

 

Did I mention the chest press in the first post (thought I did)?

 

With that one I start at 200+ pounds and do one very very slow rep, then lower the weight and do the same as with the previous exercises. 

 

Isn't Muscle Hypertrophy what you want when developing muscle tone?

 

And if this can be done faster then why not?

 

I am not only using machines. I am using free weighted dumb bells as well, for the work out. And just using the machines for the failure routine. 



#10 aconita

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 09:50 PM

I still don't understand what your goal is...and at this point I am afraid probably you don't know either.

 

Anyway going to failure with low reps is a no no thing.

 

...and the leg press is a joke, you need a squatting movement in order to develop any kind of legs quality.

 

Done faster what,  developing hypertrophy on a routine involving 4 reps max?

 

Are you joking or what?

 

Muscle tone is a quality I don't know, is it that not-well-defined-thing girls talk about when meaning they don't want to put too much effort in training (sweat)? 

 


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#11 TheFountain

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 10:55 PM

I still don't understand what your goal is...

Quick muscle toning and development.



#12 aconita

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 11:05 PM

I am sorry but it seems we do have communication issues therefore I can't help you.


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#13 TheFountain

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 11:41 PM

I am sorry but it seems we do have communication issues therefore I can't help you.

Perhaps you can make a youtube video, just for me. 


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#14 aconita

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 11:49 PM

I didn't mean to sound unfriendly but maybe you'll be better reading again my posts paying more attention at what I say.


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#15 TheFountain

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 09:39 AM

I didn't mean to sound unfriendly but maybe you'll be better reading again my posts paying more attention at what I say.I

I think a youtube channel devoted specifically to my case may be in order. 


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#16 johnross47

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Posted 04 November 2016 - 05:57 PM

 

Sounds scary, but if you're on machines with built-in safety or have somebody to spot you I suppose it might be OK. I lift at home on my own and wouldn't want to try the initial maximum press.

What's the scary part?

 

Elaborate?

 

I wouldn't want to press a weight at the limit of my ability without spotters; one slips and it crushes your windpipe.


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#17 aconita

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Posted 04 November 2016 - 11:29 PM

I wouldn't want to press a weight at the limit of my ability without spotters; one slips and it crushes your windpipe.

 

That refers to the bench press but it is almost impossible a slip if the thumb-less grip is avoided (as it should), anyway a spotter doesn't prevent that to happen as I have already witnessed since slips happen suddenly and no spotter would be able to stop it from happening even if catching the bar in time (unlikely) because of the disadvantageous position and leverage.

 

In order to prevent that to happen eventually lifting in a power rack is the only real safety measure, but again, with proper grip is an accident very unlikely to happen, what usually occurs instead is to end up with the barbell on the chest unable to get rid of it without a spotter helping, in which case is enough to NOT use collars enabling the plates to slide off the bar by tilting it by one side. 

 

Anyway for whom lifts at home a power rack is the most valuable investment possible since it is so versatile and provide so much safety... and the price for it is a joke compared to the simplest of the machines which only allow for just one movement.  

 

Machines are not the answer and in the long run likely to cause joint issues, leaving alone the dangerously incomplete strength development and total lack of functional training.

 

Machines might have their place but mostly for bodybuilders for specific related goals at specific stages of preparation, sometimes they might be useful at certain rehab stages but generally speaking one is better off by far without them.



#18 TheFountain

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Posted 08 November 2016 - 09:09 PM

 

 

Sounds scary, but if you're on machines with built-in safety or have somebody to spot you I suppose it might be OK. I lift at home on my own and wouldn't want to try the initial maximum press.

What's the scary part?

 

Elaborate?

 

I wouldn't want to press a weight at the limit of my ability without spotters; one slips and it crushes your windpipe.

 

Oh no, i'm only doing that aspect of it on the machines. 

 

With free weights i'm still starting to go slower, for example with lateral raises, I am making sure they are controlled and slow both up and down. 

 

But with the machines I am going much higher with the weight resistance. 

 

I think machines can be more useful than they normally are when the work out is utilizing the slow method. 



#19 johnross47

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Posted 09 November 2016 - 10:32 AM

going slow certainly makes it hurt a lot more.



#20 TheFountain

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Posted 11 November 2016 - 04:15 AM

going slow certainly makes it hurt a lot more.

Going slowly at the appropriate weight resistance to failure seems to require heavier recovery time, and better gains (According to Dr. Doug).

 

I see guys doing these circuit training sets at the gym, jumping from Machine to Machine Like Spider monkeys on speed in the same time as I am doing one super slow set on one machine. lol



#21 johnross47

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Posted 11 November 2016 - 02:59 PM

I sometimes slow an exercise down rather than increasing the weight. It's amazing how many fewer you can do.



#22 TheFountain

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Posted 23 February 2017 - 04:33 PM

I talked to Doug McGuff recently and he told me that you can compliment the Super Slow work out with other, less intense work outs, as long as they do not match the intensity of the main super slow work out they shouldn't mess with your results from recovery. 

 

For example, you can do a work out consisting of a few quicker, lower weight sets focusing on endurance rather than hypertrophy and quick muscle growth twice a week in addition to the super slow work out. 

 

To be honest, I often feel like my muscles are not interested in working out for at least 4-5 days during the interval after each super slow work out, but I have begun to work some light to moderately intense Aerobic work outs a couple times a week between the super slow ones. 

 

I find that, although the super slow kills the muscle fibers, it doesn't work my bodies cardio enough to my liking, obviously due to it being of a super slow nature, thus more anabolic than catabolic. More Anaerobic than Aerobic. 

 

I think everybody who does super slow work outs, unless they are not eating a normal calorie diet probably compliment it with some form of cardiovascular exercise, or as Dr/ McGuff calls it 'play'. 



#23 TheFountain

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Posted 12 April 2017 - 05:34 AM

I decided to go back to a mostly traditional work out regimen, but I will say doing the super slow thing for a few months definitely enhanced my appreciation for controlling the weights better up and down.

 

The problem with super slow is that it's anaerobic so doesn't burn that much body fat. And paradoxically it's very straining and tiring too. It did cause noticeable hypertrophy but that would not last longer than a few days at a time, I just don't see it as an overall net benefit to a longevity plan.

 

I'll go ahead and say that as long as you have an appreciation for controlling weight instead of being overly jerky with it, you'll see results regardless of the speed at which you lift them. Now that being said, controlled weight lifting will not work at super fast speeds anyway. 

 

So the main take away from the Super slow work out I tried was always control the weight and don't let the weight control you. 



#24 RWhigham

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Posted 17 April 2018 - 11:25 PM

From Post  on Doug McGuff's method

 

 

Hi Intensity  Each exercise uses about 75-80% of your one time max. The first rep will seem easy. The movements are very slow, only a few reps--staying under load at all times until your muscles fail. The weight should be selected so failure occurs in 90 +/- 30 sec. The last few seconds you are hyperventilating like crazy and giving it all you've got. Your body should think you're engaged in a life and death struggle and pull out all the stops. When doing this your brain will be screaming for you to stop sooner than you must..For a few seconds after failure your muscles will be useless. After the leg press--done right--you cannot immediately stand. At the end of each exercise, you should be huffing and puffing so hard you cannot talk. After a minute or so when you recover enough to talk, start the next exercise.

 

The Whole Muscle  These exercises start out engaging your Slow-Twitch fibers. As they begin to fail, the faster twitch fibers will engage until the entire muscle has completely engaged to failure. 

 

More Weight Bad  If you start with a weight heavy enough to engage all fibers at once two bad things happen:

  • Once you're strong, engaging all fibers at once generates a dangerous amount of force that can be damaging to your joints and tendons ie you may hurt yourself or accumulate damage
  • The fastest fatiguing fibers will fail first, then the weight will be too heavy to continue and the remaining fibers will not be fatigued

The 2nd objection under "More Weight Bad" could be remedied by progressively reducing the weight, but the time taken to change weights is time not under load. Dr McGuff emphasizes staying under load from start to finish.

 

The McGuff method takes an amazingly small amount of your time each week to build muscle mass.

 


Edited by RWhigham, 17 April 2018 - 11:35 PM.


#25 TheFountain

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Posted 24 August 2018 - 04:08 AM

From Post  on Doug McGuff's method

 

The 2nd objection under "More Weight Bad" could be remedied by progressively reducing the weight, but the time taken to change weights is time not under load. Dr McGuff emphasizes staying under load from start to finish.

 

The McGuff method takes an amazingly small amount of your time each week to build muscle mass.

 

My question is, why did Doctor McGuff's method cause a great deal of soreness all through out my body? I Stayed under load for extended periods of time mind you. Pauses of 30 seconds between exercises is expected. 



#26 XenMan

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Posted 24 August 2018 - 08:07 AM

My question is, why did Doctor McGuff's method cause a great deal of soreness all through out my body?

 

Most likely due to more eccentric time under tension, that is the negative part. Could also be just being new.

 

Weight training is pretty well explored to death through numerous studies. There is a good formula to follow, and then you can tweak it.

 

Remember the basics as workout x nutrition x recovery= success.

 

McGuffs sounds like an old idea of slow rep rates which has been disproven as superior, but good for a change.

 

High intensity is good if done properly, to absolute failure every time and recovery time is considered. The older you are the better it is for you.

 

I do once a week only high intensity and can build slowly, but mainly for minimum time with maximum returns.

 

It works well if you have some 'special sauce', a low carb diet and do HIIT at least once through the week.

 

The best workout is one you are going to do indefinitely; anything is better than nothing.


Edited by XenMan, 24 August 2018 - 08:08 AM.

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#27 John250

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Posted 24 August 2018 - 03:59 PM

I’ve tried every work out method possible and what gave me the best results was DC training. At first it feels like you’re not doing enough but when you get the concept of it it becomes pretty crazy. I actually grew more muscle doing this method of training that I did with my first cycle of steroids.

https://jcdfitness.c...ilding-program/
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#28 XenMan

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Posted 25 August 2018 - 03:38 AM

I’ve tried every work out method possible and what gave me the best results was DC training. 

 

I know that the purists say you are either doing DC or not, but I added some principles to my short workout and it is very effective.

 

It is without evidence, but I believe you need to do the standard volume training initially to get some strength and bulk, but after that DC and other high intensity is all you need to maintain, or with a little extra effort, continue to grow for minimal time in the gym.

 

I felt ripped off after condensing 4 hours a week in the gym to only 45 minutes, and still being able to grow.

 

I was told by someone who used high intensity with a long recovery time, but I wouldn't listen; happy to say I was wrong.



#29 John250

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Posted 25 August 2018 - 04:38 PM

I know that the purists say you are either doing DC or not, but I added some principles to my short workout and it is very effective.

It is without evidence, but I believe you need to do the standard volume training initially to get some strength and bulk, but after that DC and other high intensity is all you need to maintain, or with a little extra effort, continue to grow for minimal time in the gym.

I felt ripped off after condensing 4 hours a week in the gym to only 45 minutes, and still being able to grow.

I was told by someone who used high intensity with a long recovery time, but I wouldn't listen; happy to say I was wrong.


I agree not for beginners. Growth really comes down to progression. If you do X weight with X reps during one workout the next time you hit that workout try to beat your last with either more weight or reps. Even if it’s just a few reps or lbs. continuous progress with logging a journal is a great way to track.

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#30 John250

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Posted 27 August 2018 - 04:33 AM

I know that the purists say you are either doing DC or not, but I added some principles to my short workout and it is very effective.

It is without evidence, but I believe you need to do the standard volume training initially to get some strength and bulk, but after that DC and other high intensity is all you need to maintain, or with a little extra effort, continue to grow for minimal time in the gym.

I felt ripped off after condensing 4 hours a week in the gym to only 45 minutes, and still being able to grow.

I was told by someone who used high intensity with a long recovery time, but I wouldn't listen; happy to say I was wrong.


Check out a guy named Jordan Peters. He has some incredible training programs. Definitely not for beginners but I really like his concepts.





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: doug mcguff, body by science, arnold, shock the monkey

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