13 replies to this topic

[Guilty Spark]

Hey there ladies and gents,

 

I started this topic in the hopes of finding a *well thought out*, long term, "all-rounder" brain supplement stack. This may have been briefly touched upon elsewhere on the forum but there weren't a whole lot of responses regarding this particular topic and I think there are many out there like me that aren't looking for a specialized stack but one that improves every aspect of brain health and function.

 

Principles of improvement:

 

Intelligence                                                Learning Ability/ Speed

Attention                                                    Awareness

Hemisphere Communication                     Long Term Memory

Short Term Memory                                   Thought Clarity

Neuroplasticity

 

These are the supplements I have thought of so far:

 

1000mg ALCAR (BDNF, NGF proliferation, Anti-oxidant)

1000mg Ashitaba (NGF, Anti-oxidant...)

400mg Ashwagandha (Anxiolitic)

500mg Bacopa (Neurite outgrowth, Anxiolitic)

500mg Chaga (Superoxide Dismutase)

500mg Curcumin (BDNF, Anti-imfammitory)

1000mg Fish Oil 

500mg Lion’s Mane (NGF)

 

Side note:

For the sake of simplicity I ask that we skip diet, vitamins and minerals because I believe it's well understood that both are necessary for proper brain function but aren't considered true nootropics. Everything else is fair game.

 

Thanks,

 

Guilty Spark

 

[1337]

1000mg of fish oil? You better kick that up by about 5x if you want to really see what fish oil can do. 16g daily has been treating me quite well for a few years now. Bacopa and ashwaganda, while effective, both got the axe from my daily stack due to libido issues. I liked 'em both...the missus did not. I also suggest looking at upping that lions mane dose. If that is whole mushroom powder I would put the optimum dose at about 30x where you have it now. Extracts make this a lot easier on the stomach. LOTS of NGF/BDNF action in there...LOTS... Do you ever feel itchy? Do you ever get red skin, or slight hives? Do you find that you have a short attention span or any other ADD-type symptoms with that cocktail? That is a definite shotgun approach to growing new tissues/structures...and more is not always better with this game. You liking it so far?

[Guilty Spark]

Holy crap that's a lot of fish oil! To answer your questions as they were asked:

 

1.) Do I feel itchy?

Nope. Not anymore than usual anyway.

 

2.) Red skin or slight hives?

That would be a negative, Ghost Rider!

 

3.) Short attention span?

Also a negative, thankfully!

 

Although, I actually haven't been using these supplements for very long... 2-3 weeks tops but it seems to be working just fine. My dreams are more vivid and my memory subtly albeit subjectively better. You're right though, there is a lot of BDNF/ NGF going on right now which is one of the reasons I started the topic and is something I would like to modify when I have more information. As far as the Lion's Mane is concerned I am actually taking a reputable, branded whole fruiting body extract which is somewhat expensive so upping the dose is a no-go for me at this time. While I have you here I have a few follow up questions...

 

Are there any other supplements or plant extracts that you think would make a good all-rounder stack?

 

Do you prefer krill oil or fish oil?

 

Lastly, are there any fish oil brands you wouldn't touch for any reason (powder city, pure bulk, amazon, nutrivita shop... etc.)?

 

At the moment I'm taking Powder City's fish oil because it's the cheapest I could find online and the company claims to have third party testing but the price makes me a little skeptical. I'm not brand loyal by any means so I am open to any suggestions. 

 

 

 

Sorry to grill you with so many questions and thank you for your input,

 

Guilty Spark

Edited by Guilty Spark, 18 November 2016 - 06:51 AM.

[gamesguru]

Discard the ashitaba and fish oil in favor of flax/sardines (w skin), tea/ginseng/ginkgo, shilajit/polygala/cat's claw variant.  Specific foods to consider including: grapefruit, broccoli, quinoa.

I'm curious why you've selected chaga/lion's mane but not regular button mushrooms?  They (Agaricus bisporus) have clinically relevant effects on inflammation/cytokines, as well as the immune system (both for immunocompromised and autoimmune patients), they offer more beta-glucans than oatmeal and even inhibit aromatase and boost free testosterone.

PLoS One. 2013; 8(10): e76362.

Vitamin D₂-Enriched Button Mushroom (Agaricus bisporus) Improves Memory in Both Wild Type and APPswe/PS1dE9 Transgenic Mice

Louise Bennett,^1,*Cindy Kersaitis,²Stuart Lance Macaulay,³

Abstract

Vitamin D deficiency is widespread, affecting over 30% of adult Australians, and increasing up to 80% for at-risk groups including the elderly (age>65). The role for Vitamin D in development of the central nervous system is supported by the association between Vitamin D deficiency and incidence of neurological and psychiatric disorders including Alzheimer’s disease (AD). A reported positive relationship between Vitamin D status and cognitive performance suggests that restoring Vitamin D status might provide a cognitive benefit to those with Vitamin D deficiency. Mushrooms are a rich source of ergosterol, which can be converted to Vitamin D₂ by treatment with UV light, presenting a new and convenient dietary source of Vitamin D₂. We hypothesised that Vitamin D₂-enriched mushrooms (VDM) could prevent the cognitive and pathological abnormalities associated with dementia. Two month old wild type (B6C3) and AD transgenic (APP_Swe/PS1dE9) mice were fed a diet either deficient in Vitamin D₂ or a diet which was supplemented with VDM, containing 1±0.2 µg/kg (∼54 IU/kg) vitamin D₂, for 7 months. Effects of the dietary intervention on memory were assessed pre- and post-feeding. Brain sections were evaluated for amyloid β (Aβ) plaque loads and inflammation biomarkers using immuno-histochemical methods. Plasma vitamin D metabolites, Aβ40, Aβ42, calcium, protein and cholesterol were measured using biochemical assays. Compared with mice on the control diet, VDM-fed wild type and AD transgenic mice displayed improved learning and memory, had significantly reduced amyloid plaque load and glial fibrillary acidic protein, and elevated interleukin-10 in the brain. The results suggest that VDM might provide a dietary source of Vitamin D₂ and other bioactives for preventing memory-impairment in dementia. This study supports the need for a randomised clinical trial to determine whether or not VDM consumption can benefit cognitive performance in the wider population.

 

Nutr Res. 2015 Dec;35(12):1079-84.

Daily supplementation with mushroom (Agaricus bisporus) improves balance and working memory in aged rats.

Thangthaeng N¹, Miller MG¹, Gomes SM¹, Shukitt-Hale B².

Abstract

Decline in brain function during normal aging is partly due to the long-term effects of oxidative stress and inflammation. Several fruits and vegetables have been shown to possess antioxidant and anti-inflammatory properties. The present study investigated the effects of dietary mushroom intervention on mobility and memory in aged Fischer 344 rats. We hypothesized that daily supplementation of mushroom would have beneficial effects on behavioral outcomes in a dose-dependent manner. Rats were randomly assigned to receive a diet containing either 0%, 0.5%, 1%, 2%, or 5% lyophilized white button mushroom (Agaricus bisporus); after 8 weeks on the diet, a battery of behavioral tasks was given to assess balance, coordination, and cognition. Rats on the 2% or 5% mushroom-supplemented diet consumed more food, without gaining weight, than rats in the other diet groups. Rats in the 0.5% and 1% group stayed on a narrow beam longer, indicating an improvement in balance. Only rats on the 0.5% mushroom diet showed improved performance in a working memory version of the Morris water maze. When taken together, the most effective mushroom dose that produced improvements in both balance and working memory was 0.5%, equivalent to about 1.5 ounces of fresh mushrooms for humans. Therefore, the results suggest that the inclusion of mushroom in the daily diet may have beneficial effects on age-related deficits in cognitive and motor function

[Guilty Spark]

I hadn't heard of Button Mushrooms until you mentioned then, honestly. I will certainly look into them though because, being the fitness junkie that I am, the idea of more free testosterone has piqued my interest. The reason I chose Lion's Mane is obviously for it's NGF stimulating properties and then Chaga was all about the super-oxide dismutase and energy enhancing properties. I guess for Chaga it was more about longevity and brain health than it was about brain improvement. As far as the Ashitaba is concerned I'm going to keep that around due to it's claimed alkalinizing effect on the body, as well as all of the other health benefits it's supposed to have. I don't remember where I hearsd or read this but from what I recall cancer is unable to grow in a body with a more alkaline ph level and it seems my family has a bit of a history with cancer so I'm taking what I see as preventative measures. 

 

The good news is I am already taking some off brand Ginko and drinking green tea every morning with breakfast. I didn't include Ginko in this list because I see it more as an enhancer of other nootropics and not one in itself but it definitely deserves a spot on the list. I have two questions for you, if you wouldn't mind answering...

 

Why would you suggest dropping fish oil in favor of sardine or flax oil?

 

Does Polygala effect neurite outgrowth like Bacopa and Artichoke extract or is it limited to stimulating NGF?

 

If NGF also plays a role in neurite outgrowth as well, let me me know because I, admittedly, have a limited understanding of what that entails.

 

 

 

 

I appreciate you taking the time to respond,

 

Guilty Spark

 

 

[gamesguru]

Those are the mushrooms sold in supetmarkets, lol.

I made a thread on SOD/GSH, and grapefruit has more studies than chaga. So does allium and cruciferous vegetables. Lions make is also not very effective according to experience. Yes, polygala imptoves axon and dendritr growth as well as myelin. In my opinion it's much broader than bacopa or lions mane. However, I haven't tried polygala or uncaria rhynchophylla. I like bacopa and ginseng, and to be clear I did not say to drop bacopa. Yeah neurite growth involves bdnf and NTs as well as pi3k, akt1, pkc, and gtpase. You see it with many supplements.

Edited by gamesguru, 18 November 2016 - 07:53 PM.

[Guilty Spark]

Alright, so we have the NGF and BDNF down... So what will help with the other areas of cognition?

I'm afraid to say I don't know what you mean by SOD/GSH, what are those?

 

Here's a revamped list:

 

ALCAR

Ashwagandha

Bacopa

Button Mushrooms

Curcumin

Polygala

Shilajit

Uridine

 

Thanks,

 

Guilty Spark

[gamesguru]

SOD = superoxide dismutase

GSH = Glutathione

 

I would drop from that stack: polygala, shilajit and uridine.  They're not backed by enough research, or people, for this particular thing.

 

When I think of all the things over the years found to boost BDNF (or to a lesser extent, NGF), I start to think it's more of a lifestyle than a single-pill solution.

 

As far as the glial system goes (the skeleton and vacuum cleaners of the brain) the main known factors are exercise and royal jelly (a bee product similar to pollen and propolis).

 

[William Sterog]

SOD = superoxide dismutase
GSH = Glutathione

I would drop from that stack: polygala, shilajit and uridine. They're not backed by enough research, or people, for this particular thing.

When I think of all the things over the years found to boost BDNF (or to a lesser extent, NGF), I start to think it's more of a lifestyle than a single-pill solution.

As far as the glial system goes (the skeleton and vacuum cleaners of the brain) the main known factors are exercise and royal jelly (a bee product similar to pollen and propolis).

Polygala is one of the few things tested in humans.

[gamesguru]

Polygala is one of the few things tested in humans.

 

Sure, but I liken it to Berberine: a Heinz 57, or a jack of all trades band-aid fix.  Out of the numberless things it is supposedly good for, can you please name just two specifically it is most effective for?

 

Between 2014 and 2016, a series of questionable posts appeared from Flex and Bateau popularizing unpopular nootropics in the treatment of common mental conditions.  Polygala, Ziziphus, Epimedium, Polygonatum, etc were all supposedly on the cusp of opening up new avenues in the research and treatment of depression, OCD and schizophrenia.. but nothing much ever came of it.

 

As the dust settles, some become skeptical of how the NGF-boosting onjisaponins in Polygala root have relatively little supportive research or history of human use to back them up.  Lots of things boost NGF or BDNF, but they are not all always proverbial silver bullets.  Many things with more acute and more nebulous research (and more human testimony) have the same benefits on alleviating common conditions.  Why would you go with the more novel approach?

 

Wars and storms are best to write of, but peace and calms are better to endure.  I have found the simple approach by far to be the most consistent in its effect; even relatively conservative choices like bacopa and ginseng have fallen to the wayside of occasional use and I've put a more rock-solid daily stack in place, consisting of surely very predictable things: green tea, magnesium, and a varied diet.  I also have been doing Royal Jelly a lot lately, but that's not because I feel radically strong about the GDNF or mitochondrial studies, it's just because it agrees with me and it does so consistently and so I'm gonna do it 

[William Sterog]

Sure, but I liken it to Berberine: a Heinz 57, or a jack of all trades band-aid fix. Out of the numberless things it is supposedly good for, can you please name just two specifically it is most effective for?

Between 2014 and 2016, a series of questionable posts appeared from Flex and Bateau popularizing unpopular nootropics in the treatment of common mental conditions. Polygala, Ziziphus, Epimedium, Polygonatum, etc were all supposedly on the cusp of opening up new avenues in the research and treatment of depression, OCD and schizophrenia.. but nothing much ever came of it.

As the dust settles, some become skeptical of how the NGF-boosting onjisaponins in Polygala root have relatively little supportive research or history of human use to back them up. Lots of things boost NGF or BDNF, but they are not all always proverbial silver bullets. Many things with more acute and more nebulous research (and more human testimony) have the same benefits on alleviating common conditions. Why would you go with the more novel approach?

Wars and storms are best to write of, but peace and calms are better to endure. I have found the simple approach by far to be the most consistent in its effect; even relatively conservative choices like bacopa and ginseng have fallen to the wayside of occasional use and I've put a more rock-solid daily stack in place, consisting of surely very predictable things: green tea, magnesium, and a varied diet. I also have been doing Royal Jelly a lot lately, but that's not because I feel radically strong about the GDNF or mitochondrial studies, it's just because it agrees with me and it does so consistently and so I'm gonna do it

I'm telling you that polygala has been researched in humans. If this is nothing, almost everything is less than nothing.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...ubmed/19429065/

https://www.ncbi.nlm...ubmed/19699261/

[gamesguru]

I'm telling you that polygala has been researched in humans. If this is nothing, almost everything is less than nothing.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...ubmed/19429065/

https://www.ncbi.nlm...ubmed/19699261/

 

So has bacopa, and I found that too unpredictable for prolonged, daily use.

 

When I see a stack without any frequency or dose specified, I start to wonder.

[William Sterog]

So has bacopa, and I found that too unpredictable for prolonged, daily use.

When I see a stack without any frequency or dose specified, I start to wonder.

Both Bacopa and Polygala have effects that I struggle to deal with, to say the truth. Bacopa gives me extreme tiredness, and Polygala too much stimulation and irritability. I really compare the former with a benzo and the latter with an antidepressant.

[gamesguru]

Both Bacopa and Polygala have effects that I struggle to deal with, to say the truth. Bacopa gives me extreme tiredness, and Polygala too much stimulation and irritability. I really compare the former with a benzo and the latter with an antidepressant.

 

Well if it has side effects you struggle to deal with or if it fails to produce the desired effects consistently, one has to ask the question as to whether this response is unique to you and whether the medicine works well for everybody (or virtually everybody) else.  My suspicion is that it is not and it does not.

 

Therefore, the discussions goes a level deeper..

• For whom is it effective, and for whom is it not?
• What percentage of people response positively?  (How reliable are their testimonies?)  What is the quality (and range) of effects in non-responders?
• What is the bio-chemical basis for these different reactions?
• Concerning non-responders, is there any augmentative or alternative therapy which can help elicit the desired effects?

It would seem to me therefore the threshold of evidence for recommending a product to others is much higher than what is required for recommending it to oneself.  Green tea and magnesium might be slotted into the category of proven, safe things, while things like Royal jelly might be slotted into a middle ground of "good for me, but not necessarily good for everyone else", while things like bacopa and polygala might be slotted even lower than this in the category of things "sometimes good for me, but not reliably or explicably".

 

I am not trying to pigeonhole particular nootropics, I am only arguing for a spectrum of things all deserving consideration.