73 replies to this topic

[gamesguru]

i wouldn't .  even with mdma.. despite ssri reputation to reduce oxidation, i am reluctant to dismiss other (less benign) interactions.  e.g. plutonium + uranium.  and with psycehdelics there isn't the same concern of oxidation or overdose, so instead of combining with an ssri, the wiser decision is just to up the dose.

 

deal with which medication..?  better to wash out of the antidepressant for a month or even 6 weeks.  there is a cross-tolerance.  i once had a bro approach me through the grapevine and complain my product was bunk. 

 

well i immediately demand to hop on the phone with him.  after asking whether he ate it with a high pH food or drink, if he actually swallowed it, etc etc, i finally bet him $20 he's on an antidepressant and that's why he didn't feel it.  sure as shit, he's prescribed zoloft.  but i'm such a good sport, i didn't collect the $20, and instead gave him 2 free tabs to pass along to his other buddy who isn't on meds.  the zoloft guy actually tripped on shrooms a few months before this, but i think he was on paroxetine then (shorter half-life).

[samson75]

I stopped venlafaxine for more than 72 hours before, i think it should have been out my system. But most certainly the receptors it acts on take a much longer time to recover.

And stopping AD up to six weeks ? Impossible, i don't see even myself stopping one week before ending in the hospital...

[normalizing]

if it just temporary helps with depression than its not of much use. and because of the specific serotonin receptors it effects, there were reports of regular use and heart valve problems in young people similar to mdma

[gamesguru]

Three days might present tolerance issues, it's not an oft repeated experiment so i'm curious to hear the outcome.

 

Well I have a mitrial valve prolapse.  But it's probably been in the works since long before I hopped on the acid train.  I would think it affects the mind a lot more than the heart.  Probably not best to overdo it.  Especially if you already got serious depression issues (sorry dude).

[normalizing]

"The myocardial infarction in the frequent users and in cases of sever intoxication suggest the possibility of cardiac damage related to psilocybin. According to recent studies, indole alkaloids are agonists at the 5-HT receptor in the central nervous system. However, peripherally they induce a sympathomimetic stimulation that leads to tachycardia and hypertension. In the past, the use of 5-HT agonists in migraine headaches was linked to myocardial infarction due to coronary vasoconstriction. In addition, serotonin receptor agonists can cause platelet hyperaggregation and occlusion of small coronary arteries. Because psilocybin is also an agonist of 5-HT receptors, it is conclusive from these observations that the use of this drug can lead to cardiac toxicity (Borowiak 1998)."

 

i think lsd does the same but not sure. i know for a fact MDMA causes it too

so, it doesnt seem to work long term for depression and you do have to supplement with it regularly but that is not good for the heart, hence, psilocybin is not reliable for depression is the conclusion

[sthira]

I'll chime in and say psilocybin use was probably the best experience I've ever had in my life. Pure, intense magic, hints that this reality isn't all there is for us, and we are one with each other and with all of nature. I can write a whole lot more hyperbole, but please no, you say.

However, I didn't have MVP until after I used psilocybin several times, and, unfortunately for me, no, psilocybin did not relieve long term depression. The black dog scowls on, sky ceilings stay low and menacing most days, creation is blunted, halted by depression, depression is evil, and just getting out of bed often feels heroic. Mushrooms are beautiful -- there's so much to learn -- I highly recommend them even for people like us who feel like we're teetering on the edge of oblivion. But remember there are side effects, and we must reckon with them.

Edited by sthira, 07 December 2016 - 03:16 AM.

[jack black]

"The myocardial infarction in the frequent users and in cases of sever intoxication suggest the possibility of cardiac damage related to psilocybin. According to recent studies, indole alkaloids are agonists at the 5-HT receptor in the central nervous system. However, peripherally they induce a sympathomimetic stimulation that leads to tachycardia and hypertension. In the past, the use of 5-HT agonists in migraine headaches was linked to myocardial infarction due to coronary vasoconstriction. In addition, serotonin receptor agonists can cause platelet hyperaggregation and occlusion of small coronary arteries. Because psilocybin is also an agonist of 5-HT receptors, it is conclusive from these observations that the use of this drug can lead to cardiac toxicity (Borowiak 1998)."

 

i think lsd does the same but not sure. i know for a fact MDMA causes it too

so, it doesnt seem to work long term for depression and you do have to supplement with it regularly but that is not good for the heart, hence, psilocybin is not reliable for depression is the conclusion

 

Good point on the carditoxicity. this is all shared by 5HT agonists. I know that people taking 5HTP are advised to take green tea extract with it to protect from peripheral serotonin effects. I wonder if that would work with psylocybin/other psychedelics.

 

I'll chime in and say psilocybin use was probably the best experience I've ever had in my life. Pure, intense magic, hints that this reality isn't all there is for us, and we are one with each other and with all of nature. I can write a whole lot more hyperbole, but please no, you say.

However, I didn't have MVP until after I used psilocybin several times, and, unfortunately for me, no, psilocybin did not relieve long term depression. The black dog scowls on, sky ceilings stay low and menacing most days, creation is blunted, halted by depression, depression is evil, and just getting out of bed often feels heroic. Mushrooms are beautiful -- there's so much to learn -- I highly recommend them even for people like us who feel like we're teetering on the edge of oblivion. But remember there are side effects, and we must reckon with them.

 

thanks for this beautiful description. What's MVP?

 

to update this thread, let me just say i obtained a research compound from canada (not without complications, took way over a month) and i'll will be slowly experimenting with this (of course in research animals only, first in low doses).

 

however, here is my question. if psylocybin/other psychedelics work in short term by flooding 5HT receptors and longer term by down-regulating those receptors, this is very similar to SSRI.

how come there are no psychedelic effects from SSRI and how come psychedelics don't cause Serotonin Syndrome?

on the other hand, i think it's unwise to take psychedelics with SSRI.

Edited by jack black, 14 February 2017 - 03:00 PM.

[jack black]

 

 

here is my question. if psylocybin/other psychedelics work in short term by flooding 5HT receptors and longer term by down-regulating those receptors, this is very similar to SSRI.

how come there are no psychedelic effects from SSRI and how come psychedelics don't cause Serotonin Syndrome?

 

 

i see no takes on the question.

i might have some insights now. I stumbled across this: http://blogs.discove...s/#.WObFi7iClOd

 

Psychedelic drugs, like LSD, have long been thought of as 5HT2A agonists, binding to the receptor and activating it. It turns out that this was only half right. They also inhibit mGluR2 transmission via the receptor complex. Serotonin itself is a 5HT2A agonist, but it doesn’t do that. So psychedelics seem to be a kind of (for want of a better word) “superagonist”.

 

 

that makes them very different from SSRI or MDMA.

now, i'm researching the micro-dosing idea: https://www.purenoot...g-psychedelics/

[maxwatt]

Low dose Cialis might help with the heart issues.  Maybe, maybe not.  It is the opposite of a vaso-constrictor. 

[gamesguru]

It can also cause retinal detachment.  Wait, is that with viagra or cialis?  Who gives a damn, I'm telling you big bad mod, ginger n ginkgos where its at 1000x

 

lsd is just as toxic as serotonin, just the same response curve.  i mean its practically just one order of magnitude difference.  you take 120 hits of lsd you might die.  you take 12 prozacs, same thing.  and one prozac can 5x the amount of serotonin in the synapse, i'm sure 12 could come close to 60x... so considering that, the two are on the same order of magnitude.

[jack black]

It can also cause retinal detachment. Wait, is that with viagra or cialis? Who gives a damn, I'm telling you big bad mod, ginger n ginkgos where its at 1000x

lsd is just as toxic as serotonin, just the same response curve. i mean its practically just one order of magnitude difference. you take 120 hits of lsd you might die. you take 12 prozacs, same thing. and one prozac can 5x the amount of serotonin in the synapse, i'm sure 12 could come close to 60x... so considering that, the two are on the same order of magnitude.

Did you pull all those numbers from your arse?

[normalizing]

this is about discussing psilocybin though, or can we group lsd same as psylocybin? i know there are differences im just not sure what besides one is synthetic and the other isnt

[jack black]

this is about discussing psilocybin though, or can we group lsd same as psylocybin? i know there are differences im just not sure what besides one is synthetic and the other isnt

 

all the major psychedelics are lumped together as similar activity against 5HT receptors. LSD has a bit more D receptor activity. 5HT2B activity is not considered significant in those.

see below for LSD, affinity for 5HT2b is lower (higher Ki) compared to the typical blood concentration (horizontal line):

 

 

BTW, all the sources i checked claim psychedelics are non-toxic (yes, they can screw up brains with mental disease predisposition, but that's a different thing).
 

[gamesguru]

 

It can also cause retinal detachment. Wait, is that with viagra or cialis? Who gives a damn, I'm telling you big bad mod, ginger n ginkgos where its at 1000x

lsd is just as toxic as serotonin, just the same response curve. i mean its practically just one order of magnitude difference. you take 120 hits of lsd you might die. you take 12 prozacs, same thing. and one prozac can 5x the amount of serotonin in the synapse, i'm sure 12 could come close to 60x... so considering that, the two are on the same order of magnitude.

Did you pull all those numbers from your arse?

 

while i have been known to pull stuff from my arse (mostly cucumbers with the occasional pineapple), i actually verified this by a self-experiment.  i used up 8 of my 9 lives in the process

 

but seriously folks you can look up extracellular 5-ht levels for SSRIs vs placebo and see they make a HUGE difference

[normalizing]

 

this is about discussing psilocybin though, or can we group lsd same as psylocybin? i know there are differences im just not sure what besides one is synthetic and the other isnt

 

all the major psychedelics are lumped together as similar activity against 5HT receptors. LSD has a bit more D receptor activity. 5HT2B activity is not considered significant in those.

see below for LSD, affinity for 5HT2b is lower (higher Ki) compared to the typical blood concentration (horizontal line):

 

 

BTW, all the sources i checked claim psychedelics are non-toxic (yes, they can screw up brains with mental disease predisposition, but that's a different thing).
 

 

 

 

thats what i read too, non toxic but predisposed mental issues - be careful. i guess i have mental issues, since i did lsd once last year only and i was having psychotic episodes (minor) for a week or two. it mostly included agitation and novelty seeking etc. which is usually associated with dopamine for me. interesting thing. regardless i got over it naturally but i think a little help from sedatives wouldnt hurt in such cases because i still strongly recommend psychedelic use even with such rare occurrences as i felt much better at the end interestingly enough.

 

[psychejunkie]

I, myself, had tried both shrooms and LSD in the past multiple times and as the matter of fact I just have got my hands on 10 grams of shrooms last night.

 

anyway, I didn't mean shrooms are toxic! I said "outside of human kingdom" those shrooms are actually making those psychedelic compounds to defend themselves from animals, some kind of poison mechanism.

 

but the real reason for suggesting LSD or even DMT over psilocybin is the potency. 

I think (I don't remember the numbers) an average person should at least eat 3.5 grams of shrooms to eventually experience a 100ug LSD blotter. beside, unlike LSD these shrooms have numerous other compounds in them, not just psilocybin! unless you guys try to extract and concentrate psilocybin.

 

all in all, trusted/tested LSD blotters are safer, more isolated and more potent to take for medicinal purposes, my personal suggestion.

[jack black]

Shrooms have some toxicity. They cause vomiting in high doses. The pure psychedelics don't do that.

[normalizing]

they contain many many other things too unlike straight lsd who knows what else is ingested and how it affects you long term

[jaiho]

Psilocybin is a pretty interesting drug.

There's a shitload of literature out there, and people who have had their depression abolished long term.

 

https://www.youtube....bed/81-v8ePXPd4

https://www.youtube....bed/MZIaTaNR3gk

 

 

Edited by jaiho, 09 April 2017 - 08:45 AM.

[normalizing]

yeah but then, some people can abolish their depression just taking a hike to the mountain, changing their diet or doing small things and then there are those who wont even benefit from ketamine treatment. its diversity of genes, and i think its highly irresponsible to recommend things like psilocybin and other things as all help out there and it pisses me off when people do!

[jaiho]

Not sure what you're trying to say there, hazy, but psilocybin has been studied & proven to be effective in treatment resistant depression. Psychedelics are the future of mental health treatment.

[gamesguru]

if psychedelics were effective against depression i would be king of the world

[psychejunkie]

yeah but then, some people can abolish their depression just taking a hike to the mountain, changing their diet or doing small things and then there are those who wont even benefit from ketamine treatment. its diversity of genes, and i think its highly irresponsible to recommend things like psilocybin and other things as all help out there and it pisses me off when people do!

 

dude! I am messaging here from a country that watching TV can be prohibited someday! don't be a child and respect people's choice, please!

if you're really concerning about drug use and responsibility, instead of pissing over of what people want to try or experience, at least, try to be a guide for harm reduction or do help these guys in some other way. 

don't be the guy who prohibits anything according to his own feelings that carries an empty suitcase of solutions! respect people's freedom of choice

Edited by psychejunkie, 10 April 2017 - 04:35 AM.

[jaiho]

if psychedelics were effective against depression i would be king of the world

 

That's not how anti depressant effects work

Though Psilocybin is capable of lasting personality changes in the form of higher empathy & connectedness to the universe. they sound like the complete polar opposite to SSRIs.

 

/Commence random conspiracy theory about why they're illegal.

[jack black]

According to my experiments so far (with research animal of course), neither psychodelic dose or microdosing has any positive effects rather than recreational. Gamesguru maybe right on this one. As for the official studies, the placebo is unmistakable with this one.

[psychejunkie]

outcome of my experiments were differently positive, but I agree that not everyone would get positive results!

[jaiho]

interesting, my experiments were completely opposite. I'd get drastic lasting changes in depression & anhedonic symptoms for weeks after a psilocybin session.

The downside is, to keep the effects going you'd have to trip almost monthly. 

But to some that would be OK rather than being on meds.

[aperson444]

I have some experience with psychedelics. I had used them to treat my depression for a long time -- unfortunately, I was pretty reckless back then. To make matters worse, my chronic treatment with SSRIs had increased my tolerance to an extremely high level so I had to take large doses to feel effects, which led to me often overdoing it (overestimating the tolerance caused by SSRIs). Actually, I remember a time when I had basically used 300 ug ETH-LAD and at least 3.0 g of mushrooms plus some cannabis and I ended up getting arrested (lost control was pretty much manic/psychotic for 6 hours). I got suicidal in jail at first (because I'd never been in jail), but I remember just being at total peace when I got out. There was a definite lasting antidepressant effect, though it was kind of transient and only lasted for about a month or two afterwards. 

 

Regarding downregulation of the 5HT2A receptor from SSRIs, apparently only chronic treatment with SSRIs (21+ days) dramatically reduces response to 5HT2A agonist DOI (PMID: 23159642), but if you look closely, even after 1 day of treatment, the response to DOI treatment is reduced ~22% (not sure if they tested to see if this was statistically significant though). Since many psychedelics are agonists at the 5HT2C receptor as well as the 5HT2A receptor, the following study might be relevant: PMID = 19376075. Apparently 5HT2C receptor antagonists (the one they used was not selective for the 2C receptor and had some affinity for the 2A receptor) decrease firing in the Raphe nucleus. Thus, the antidepressant effect of 5HT2A/2C agonists (psychedelics) might be twofold: they might downregulate the receptors while also facilitating release of glutamate (PMID: 20717121) which in turn upregulates AMPA receptors (responsible for neuroplasticity). It also looks like the behavioral effects of psychedelic drugs can be abolished by deletion of the gene for mGluR-2, thus implicating metabotropic glutamate receptors. Interestingly deletion of mGluR 2 reduces psychedelic-induced (DOI in this case) egr expression (PMID: 21276828). It appears that in the mGluR/5HT2A heteromer, binding to the 5HT2A receptor decreases affinity of glutamate for mGluR 2, which is responsible for glutamate release as well as GABA release at the presynaptic terminal (PMID: 20055706). 

 

Edited by aperson444, 10 April 2017 - 04:16 PM.

[gamesguru]

how does weeks = long-term???

 

i was taking them more often than i would recommend and had 6 months of a kind of afterglow, where i wasn't really in a bad mood despite a shitty life situation.  once that wore off, my mood also became shitty.  but even 6 months is not long-term.  it's like jerking off with pine needles, an interesting experience sure, but not something you would probably do again unless you had to.  especially once you have a bad trip, you want to go back there but make it easier on yourself this time, and unfortunately there isn't any way to guarantee that... the treadmill, magnesium and ginkgo may not last 6 months after you quit, but they also won't put you in a waking nightmare half the time

 

so jack yes i'm right, and the downside mentioned by jaiho is a huge one.  not to mention the fact that it only improves your mood not your motivation, basically it's like prozac, makes you content with a shitty situation without motivating you to change it.. proceed with caution

Edited by gamesguru, 10 April 2017 - 05:10 PM.

[jack black]

if psychedelics were effective against depression i would be king of the world

 

aren't you?: