25 replies to this topic

[Centurion]

Hi everyone, this is a topic which has worn on my mind for so long that im beginning to despair and lose hope.
I used to be a very capable and intensive weightlifter, training 3 times a week and enjoying it thoroughly. I was in great shape and was having a great time, until one day about four years ago during a strong man exercise I tore a ligament or tendon in my mid back.

I stopped weightlifting immediately after the injury, and havent been on any long term training regime since. Even though the original injury has healed, any time I carry out physical activity like a light machine weights workout or a game of squash, my back spasms up on me and what results is an insanely debilitating fatigue, mental slowness and feeling of malaise.

I really want to try and get past this problem. Some people are saying its because I was once training hardcore and then just stopped, and my muscles are "confused" (if youll indulge my being so colloquial). Ive had X rays and been to physiotherapists, it is confirmed that there is zero disk damage or spinal abnormalaties, its all muscle related. No physio I have been too has been able to correctly diagnose and treat the issue to its conclusion of allowing me to follow an exercise regime and keep my muscles toned (even forsaking heavy weights, something light to stop me from turning into a flab bucket would do!)

Im getting desperate here folks perhaps someone here could shed some light on the problem???

[Paul Idol]

Have you tried upping your mineral intake? It might take some trial and error, but maybe it's worth a shot.

-Paul

[xanadu]

Acupuncture might help.

[rfarris]

Acupuncture might help.

Can you prove it?

[scottl]

Try active release (AKA myofasical release but tailored for soft tissue injuries) but really magic for any kind of soft tissue injury.

You can find a practitioner at activerelease.com

PS back spasms have been reported with a number of e.g. prohormones I'm assuming that is not the issue.

If you have any questions PM me as i don't frequent this board too often.

[curint]

Acupuncture might help.

Yes, what proof do you have of this?
I would like you to give me a single piece of proof for you statement.

Show us you're no the hypocrite you would appear to be by making your requests of proof here:
http://www.imminst.o...t=60#entry91258

[boundlesslife]

Im getting desperate here folks perhaps someone here could shed some light on the problem???

I don't know if this is applicable to mid-back vs. lower back, or if it would help, but bike riding did something for me no chiropractor was able to do.

In my mid-thirties, after being active in judo for over ten years, I developed a lower back "problem" that was incapacitating for 3-5 days at a time. It would start with a "twinge" and then within a few hours I was immobilized and in very severe pain, practically unable to get to the bathroom, much less do anything else. This continued, off and on, for over twenty years, at intervals of from every few months to several times a year.

During this time, there were times when I was even able to get to a chiropractor within less than an hour after the "twinge", but despite this, no improvement was experienced. Then, one day about ten years ago, riding mountain bikes, coming down a steep hill to a stream, my partner went through the stream first and muddied it up, so I couldn't see the rocks under the water, and predictably (perhaps), I went "over the bars" and... whoops! There was the "twinge"!

"Oh, no!" was my first thought, but, being several miles from "home" (an old mobile home in the mountains, at that time) there was no alternative but to get on the bike and try to get back to where there would be a bed to lie in. Leaning on the handlebars to take weight off the spine, I began to pedal, and it didn't get worse, at least for the time it took to get home. When I climbed off the bike, there was a strange feeling that there was not going to be any back problem, this time (for the first time, ever, after a "twinge" like that). Several hours later, my only conclusion was that I'd "got away" without the disabling several days of pain.

A few years after that (bike riding seemed to have largely eliminated the recurrence of this kind of problem, anyway), getting out of a car in Phoenix, AZ (which, by then, was "home") a "twinge" of a very definite kind occurred, again. This time, I was able to get on a bike within minutes, and put 10+ miles on it over the next hour. Again, no pain syndrome followed. Since that time (5+ years ago), there have been no "twinges" at all.

Again, I don't know if mid-back pain is enough like lower back pain to be significant, or if this would help, but bike riding involves a lot of leg and hip activity, and probably projects all the way up the back into the shoulders, where you're supporting the stress of continually shifting force on the pedals. The only reason for suggesting this is that it worked for one kind of back pain where nothing else seemed to help.

The only thing multiple medical exams had been able to tell me was, "this was a congenital problem, a lot of people have it, and, 'you're going to have to learn to live with it'!" This didn't sound very good to me, at the time, and it still doesn't. You've been told there's really 'nothing wrong with your back', yet it doesn't do what it used to, and what you want it to do, so, what do you do? I don't know! Take up bike riding?

Good luck in finding a solution, in any case. Those of us on this board hope to live a long, long time, and back pain is a good thing to be rid of as quickly as possible!

boundlesslife

[xanadu]

Have you tried heating pads? I know it sounds hopelessly low tech and old fashioned but that has worked for me. Also hot showers help sometimes.

curint, we do not do personal attacks here.

[dtompkin]

considering you call people "jerks" on this thread http://www.imminst.o...=6&t=9023&st=80
I think he's right about you being a hypocrite.

Besides, hes asked you for some proof of your statement. Perhaps you should have the courtesy to reply?

"Have you tried heating pads?" Have another go at suggesting something useful.
How about positive thinking? Or Chondroitin & Glucosamine? Or meditation?

[ajnast4r]

acupuncure is a great suggestion

[xanadu]

dtompkin, if you have nothing to say, I suggest the option of saying nothing. Acupuncture has been worked with in this country for years and in other countries for centuries. Many people have gotten benefit from it. I saw no point in going off on a major tangent like that and trying to debate the whole issue of acupuncture. I did not call anyone a jerk, I said don't be one. I'd give you the same advice. We don't do personal attacks here.

Heating pads have worked well for me. Don't use one for more than about 15 or 20 minutes at a time and keep it on low setting. It seems the thread starter made only one post. Did he even come back to view the replies?

[nalpak]

Actually, meditation is a good suggestion as well.
I had a slipped disc in my back and I needed to learn to meditate deeply so as to relax the muscles enough for them to stop spasming and compressing the nerve before I could sleep at night.

Chondroitin and Glucosamine helped to rebuild the cartilage, though I would suggest shart cartilage too.

Positive thinking regarding self-healing is always beneficial, but I would have suggested 'good posture' as being more important in this case.

You don't take critism well, do you xanadu?

[xanadu]

"You don't take critism well, do you xanadu?"

Criticism? Is that what you call it? I'd say being constantly followed around and called names is beyond criticism. It's obviously personal attacks which are supposedly not allowed on imminst. You did notice that the person I replied to made a personal attack? Or perhaps you missed that? Certain people notice which way the wind is blowing and deduce that they can break the rules since everyone else is doing it. They correctly saw that they could attack me with no consequences. If I had replied in kind, I would likely be disciplined right away.

[nalpak]

He simply asked you for some proof for your statement.
Now I'm asking.

That's the third person on this board who wants you to give some proof to back up what you wrote.

Perhaps you could do this, or should I ask again?

[xanadu]

Proof of what, nalpak. I've made many statements. If you are talking about acupuncture, there is a wealth of info on that. Do try to make your questions to the point and narrow enough that they could reasonably be answered in one post. Saying "back up what you wrote" is not a question.

[nalpak]

Do you genuinely not know that three people have asked you, or are you just being dishonest?
Personally I think you know very well what I, and two others, was asking, and your sidetracking avoidance just shows your dishonesty.

However, I cannot prove this, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt and spell it out as clearly as I can.

Your first statement "Acupuncture might help. " which two others subsequently asked "Can you prove it?" and "Yes, what proof do you have of this?"
I am now asking the same. Is that clear enough for you?

Could you also be more precise with what you are refering to as "acupuncture", as there are different types which have completely different philosophies behind them (eg Western vs Eastern).

Acupuncture, of all forms I tried, was of no use to me. Perhaps you could simply give a specific set of references or bases for your statement that it may help, instead of twisting and turning?

This is of course assuming that you weren't just stating random possibilities like vodka might help, or the sun might not come up tomorrow.

I see you've deleted telling people not to be a jerk from the linked thread above, or am I mistaken?

[xanadu]

nalpak, you have proven to me that you are nothing but an internet troll. I've asked you to refrain from personal attacks but you continue. I will not discuss anything with you further as long as you act this way.

[dtompkin]

Once again, xanadu, you've avoided answering the worthwhile content of another's posts. Why do you do this?

Perhaps you'd have the courtesy to answer me, if not him?

Could you provide some basis for you suggestion that acupuncture might help? I had a friend who got a pierced lung from acupuncture, so at the moment I think it's dangerous rubbish. I'm aware the some support it, but I would recommend centurion doesn't touch it.

Do you have anything to say against that? I.e. addressing the issue of acupuncture? Just that - nothing else, no name calling like troll or whatever, just the issue of acupuncture.

[xanadu]

dtompkin, I'm well aware that several people on this board have more than one handle. I will reply to anyone who is even moderately polite. Soon as you revert to your attacks, I'm done with that name also.

Acupuncture is a very broad subject and I hesitate to get into a debate over it. Perhaps this is the best time and place, perhaps not. Many people have gotten benefit from acupuncture for a myriad of complaints. Pain management seems to be one area it's been successful in. Not every disease or condition will respond to it.

"I had a friend who got a pierced lung from acupuncture,"

Acupuncture involves very light piercing with the needle, typically no more than a millimeter. There is no way anyone could get a pierced lung from that. Maybe it was an amateur acupuncturist, maybe he got stabbed by someone. We can trade anecdotes but that will prove nothing. Like I say, it's a broad subject.

[mitkat]

If it indeed is an all muscle problem, than xanadu's right. Acupuncture can help with many problems, and it could promise of help for centurion's back problem. Debates aside, Acupuncture is a respected and ancient form of traditional Chinese medicine. It has helped a lot of people, and I don't need to post links for that.

Every form of medicine has it's quacks, dtompkin. I'm sorry that your friend had to go through that. Although with such a thin guage needle, I don't see how that's possible. Did he go to a registered practitioner, or just some guy? In Canada you need specific accreditation. There's a school near me that offers a four year degree, and some colleges have three year diplomas. So there is some need for clarity, but Caveat Emptor.

[joee]

An xray will not show disc problems or (hardly) any soft tissue problems.

What you need, is an MRI to see whats going on with the soft tissues.

What you are describeing, could very well be a bulgeing disc. Exercising may be causeing compression of spinal nerves, which would most definatly lead to to sympathetic facilitation, which could explain your symptomatology.

[dtompkin]

xanadu's a master at sidetracking, isn't he? You're right, it will prove nothing, especially as you're not prepared to offer any proof, despite repeated requests.

If it indeed is an all muscle problem, than xanadu's right. Acupuncture can help with many problems, and it could promise of help for centurion's back problem. Debates aside, Acupuncture is a respected and ancient form of traditional Chinese medicine. It has helped a lot of people, and I don't need to post links for that.

Every form of medicine has it's quacks, dtompkin. I'm sorry that your friend had to go through that. Although with such a thin guage needle, I don't see how that's possible. Did he go to a registered practitioner, or just some guy? In Canada you need specific accreditation. There's a school near me that offers a four year degree, and some colleges have three year diplomas. So there is some need for clarity, but Caveat Emptor.

Yes, but what type of acupuncture? Other's are probably right too. It doesn't take much to throw out suggestions, like acupuncture or meditation, but I can see how both could be valuable for muscle relaxation...

As I understand it, traditional (eastern) acupuncture deal with energy meridians. I know nothing of this.
Western acupuncture developed because when doctors tried to help people with terrible muscle pains/spasms/knots... they injected anaesthetic direcly into the muscle areas. But because they were good scientists, they did the control of inserting the needles and injecting both inert saline etc... and nothing.

They found that the pain eased just as much from just the needle insertion, with nothing injected.
Hence was born the, completely separate to traditional acupuncture, western acupuncture where fine needles are inserted into tight spots/knots in the muscles.
This causes the muscle to spasm locally around the needle (because it's traumatic...), which over-tires it, resulting in it becomming more relaxed than it's perpetual semi-spasm state before. This is aided by pressing hard on the knot to flatten it.

The needles are inserted by flicking or tapping the top. It does need a lot of training, if only to learn to become sensitive to feeling where the knots are (which I find amazing because I can't do it). Even so, occasionally, a needle can penetrate too far and cause a small leakage of air from the lung into the muscle/body. Apparently this causes a significant general feeling of unwell for about a week until the body clears it.

I may be completely wrong in this, but that was my understanding. I'd be interested if someone could clarify.

An xray will not show disc problems or (hardly) any soft tissue problems.

What you need, is an MRI to see whats going on with the soft tissues.

What you are describeing, could very well be a bulgeing disc.  Exercising may be causeing compression of spinal nerves, which would most definatly lead to to sympathetic facilitation, which could explain your symptomatology.

I agree entirely with this.
If it's possible it's a slipped (bulging disc) you must not continue to exercise. Such things can take over 18 months to heal, and they never fully repare. The pain of a compressed sciatic is also something you would wish only on a paedophile. All for a little bit more exercise that week? It really isn't worth it - trust me on that.

But what you seem to be describing is middle back. And if it's muscle, it shouldn't be that much of a problem.
Are you sure you're (original poster) just not expecting too much from yourself? Tone is lost surprisingly quickly, as I'm sure you know, and is hard to regain...

[xanadu]

dtompkin, you are spreading deliberate misinformation on the subject of acupuncture. They do not insert needles deep into muscles and never insert needles into the lungs. People reading this should not take those statements as fact. Do some reading and find out what acupuncture really is. Needles are never inserted more than about 1 or 2 millimeters. I'm done with this thread.

[dtompkin]

and once again, you're being deliberately dishonest with you misrepresenting of other's responses.

Of course the intention is not to insert the needle into the lungs. But, for deep (western) muscle acupuncture, it can happen accidentally.

Pity you're not done with this board.

[anargo]

They do not insert needles deep into muscles and never insert needles into the lungs. People reading this should not take those statements as fact. Do some reading and find out what acupuncture really is. Needles are never inserted more than about 1 or 2 millimeters. I'm done with this thread.

Hes right actually. Or at least you can have this done. I had it done to cure cronic upper back tightness. It can work wonders - I would recommend it to anyone with severe muscle tightness from say too much desk/computer work.

The needles can go deep into the muscles, particularly under the shoulder blades. I've never heard of them going too deep, but interestingly the acupucture (physiotherapist) said that people in her profession prefer to deal with the problem just with massage if they could because there was a small risk of accidentally causing a pinhole puncture of the pleural membrane around the lungs with causes temporary fellings of moderate unwellness, and that I needed to be aware of this small possibility if I wanted to proceed.

I was surprised that that could happen at the time because I thought it would take a 'big' mistake to stick it that far. But she definitely said this to me and what tompkin said reminded me.

[johnmk]

Make sure to get plenty of potassium, magnesium, and so on. A good multivitamin + low-sodium V8 is a start. The low sodium V8 is a particularly good source of potassium because most of the sodium chloride is replaced with potassium chloride. Supplementing additional magnesium in the form of magnesium citrate (at least 200 mg of elemental magnesium), and a bit of zinc (I wouldn't go over 15 mg/day, just in an abundance of caution; I like "ZMA" zinc supplements), might be an additional step to try.