31 replies to this topic

[InfiniteLifespan]

I've been looing at Berberine and noticed it activates AMPK? So this would give a similar effect to intermittent fasting / caloric restriction? At the same time it accelerates muscular atrophy which is a serious problem.

Has anyone here considered Berberine for life extension purposes through reducing insulin resistance?

[Dorian Grey]

Insulin resistance has been relieved in those with elevated ferritin through phlebotomy (blood donation).  

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/17391316

 

"Iron depletion produced a significantly larger decrease in insulin resistance (P=0.0016 for insulin, P=0.0042 for HOMA-R) compared with nutritional counseling alone"

 

If your ferritin is at all elevated (into triple digits), you might see a substantial improvement in insulin resistance by dropping a pint or two down at the blood bank.  

[RWhigham]

Has anyone here considered Berberine for life extension purposes through reducing insulin resistance?

A search for berberine in the google search box at the top of the page gives10 pages of entries on Logecity. Three of the newer entries are:

 

http://www.longecity...-for-metformin/ "Berberine as a substitute for metformin"

 

http://www.longecity...icity-concerns/ "Berberine compared to Metformin for Longevity & DNA / Genotoxicity Concerns"

 

http://www.longecity...and-probiotics/ "Berberine, gut flora and probiotics"

 

Edited by RWhigham, 21 January 2017 - 11:53 PM.

[Darryl]

Weapon of choice is high carb (low fat, low protein) diets. 

 

1935 Effects of the high carbohydrate-low calorie diet upon carbohydrate tolerance in diabetes mellitus

1955 Low-fat diet and therapeutic doses of insulin in diabetes mellitus

1958 Effect of rice diet on diabetes mellitus associated with vascular disease

1976 Beneficial effects of a high carbohydrate, high fiber diet on hyperglycemic diabetic men

1977 Effect of carbohydrate restriction and high carbohydrates diets on men with chemical diabetes

1979 High-carbohydrate, high-fiber diets for insulin-treated men with diabetes mellitus

1981 High carbohydrate high in fibre diet in diabetes

1982 Response of non-insulin-dependent diabetic patients to an intensive program of diet and exercise

1983 Long-term use of a high-complex-carbohydrate, high-fiber, low-fat diet and exercise in the treatment of NIDDM patients

1994 Diet and exercise in the treatment of NIDDM: the need for early emphasis

1999 Toward improved management of NIDDM: A randomized, controlled, pilot intervention using a lowfat, vegetarian diet

2005 The effects of a low-fat, plant-based dietary intervention on body weight, metabolism, and insulin sensitivity

2006 A low-fat vegan diet improves glycemic control and cardiovascular risk factors in a randomized clinical trial in individuals with type 2 diabetes

2006 Effect of short‐term Pritikin diet therapy on the metabolic syndrome

2009 A low-fat vegan diet and a conventional diabetes diet in the treatment of type 2 diabetes: a randomized, controlled, 74-wk clinical trial

 

However, berberine functions similarly to metformin, and it may be more bioavailable to systemic circulation. I suspect its a useful adjunct to altering macronutrients.

[jack black]

Weapon of choice is high carb (low fat, low protein) diets.

1935 Effects of the high carbohydrate-low calorie diet upon carbohydrate tolerance in diabetes mellitus
1955 Low-fat diet and therapeutic doses of insulin in diabetes mellitus
1958 Effect of rice diet on diabetes mellitus associated with vascular disease
1976 Beneficial effects of a high carbohydrate, high fiber diet on hyperglycemic diabetic men
1977 Effect of carbohydrate restriction and high carbohydrates diets on men with chemical diabetes
1979 High-carbohydrate, high-fiber diets for insulin-treated men with diabetes mellitus
1981 High carbohydrate high in fibre diet in diabetes
1982 Response of non-insulin-dependent diabetic patients to an intensive program of diet and exercise
1983 Long-term use of a high-complex-carbohydrate, high-fiber, low-fat diet and exercise in the treatment of NIDDM patients
1994 Diet and exercise in the treatment of NIDDM: the need for early emphasis
1999 Toward improved management of NIDDM: A randomized, controlled, pilot intervention using a lowfat, vegetarian diet
2005 The effects of a low-fat, plant-based dietary intervention on body weight, metabolism, and insulin sensitivity
2006 A low-fat vegan diet improves glycemic control and cardiovascular risk factors in a randomized clinical trial in individuals with type 2 diabetes
2006 Effect of short‐term Pritikin diet therapy on the metabolic syndrome
2009 A low-fat vegan diet and a conventional diabetes diet in the treatment of type 2 diabetes: a randomized, controlled, 74-wk clinical trial

However, berberine functions similarly to metformin, and it may be more bioavailable to systemic circulation. I suspect its a useful adjunct to altering macronutrients.

You forgot to mention the low calorie part. Big difference.

[pamojja]

Weapon of choice is high carb (low fat, low protein) diets.

 

I really, really wished it would. But my experience when I started to monitor blood glucose 7 year ago is the total opposite.

 

It's only the amount of carbs - for me even such seemingly innocents like rice and legumes - which drive postprandial blood glucose to astronomical numbers, and, to a lesser extent, amounts of protein. The only way to lower mean blood glucose, and with it long term HbA1c, was to test blood glucose after each meal, and eliminating the worst offenders.

 

That practically meant going increasingly on a low carbohydrates, moderate protein and very high fat diet. This way I was able to keep my HbA1c in average at 5%. However, each year I take a 6 week vacation in a high carbing country like India, and each time after such a short time having to eat at least a little rice to be able to stomach fiery spiced vegetables, additional to taking refuge in metformin and berberine, my HbA1c ends up above 6%.

 

If one considers that HbA1c measures the glycated haemoglobin from the last 3 months, and that therefore only 50% of it is made up from the exposure to blood glucose from my 6 week vacation, I would end up well above an HbA1c of 7% or fully diabetic if I had to eat any longer that little bid of rice each day.

 

 

Anyone actually testing one's blood glucose can tell you this long list of studies is totally misleading. Though I really would love to be able to eat at least a little bid of rice each day..

 

 

PS: my ferritin always been 2 digits, probably because I've been vegan since 10 years of age..

Edited by pamojja, 22 January 2017 - 04:35 PM.

[RWhigham]

Weapon of choice is high carb (low fat, low protein) diets. 

 

Type I diabetics have no insulin made by their body. With no insulin their cells cannot take up glucose. Without exogenous insulin, the person will literally starve to death and die totally emaciated with all their glucose spilled into urine. Minimizing their sugar intake is not indicated. At meal time their cells have to get enough glucose along with a shot of insulin to last until the next meal.

 

Type II diabetes (T2D) is often blamed on insulin resistance, which in reality may be a normal feedback response of cells that have taken up glucose to capacity. If glucose is chronically high, cells may never be able to respond normally to an increase in demand. However, the consensus is that every insulin resistant cell is somehow damaged and needs to be forced to accept glucose. Could this be wrong.

 

Glucagon theory of type II diabetes:

 

In this theory some or many of those insulin producing cells that are adjacent to glucagon producing cells in the pancreas have become damaged, perhaps from chronic levels of inflammation, and cannot suppress glucagon from the nearby cells. The resulting excess glucagon is enough to switch the liver into glucagon mode so that it is constantly adding glucose into the bloodstream.

 

In a healthy pancreas insulin levels are very high adjacent to glucagon cells. Parenteral insulin in T2D can never match this concentration, so the pancreas can never stop releasing excess glucagon. It also may never stop releasing insulin because it still senses the elevated blood glucose from the liver. There is more than enough insulin to allow body cells to take up glucose to capacity, but when the body cells reach capacity, they develop feedback insulin resistance.

 

This condition can often be managed by metformin, a low glycemic diet, and exercise. Eating a high glycemic diet and relying on exogenous insulin to force cells to accept more glucose is ill advised, may cause weight gain, inflammation, and lead to type I diabetes. A high carbohydrate diet for this is like pouring gasoline on a fire.

 

 Caveat: I read this diabetic stuff somewhere. I'm not an expert and don't want to hunt for where I got it. I hope it will prompt someone to research beyond just injecting prescription insulin, and to avoid progressing.

Edited by RWhigham, 23 January 2017 - 01:55 AM.

[pamojja]

Type I diabetics have no insulin made by their body. With no insulin their cells cannot take up glucose. Without exogenous insulin, the person will literally starve to death and die totally emaciated with all their glucose spilled into urine. Minimizing their sugar intake is not indicated. At meal time their cells have to get enough glucose along with a shot of insulin to last until the next meal.

 

Then there is Dr. Brownstein, a type 1 diabetic, who kept it in check for over 70 years by eliminating sugar and minimizing carbs.

 

http://www.diabetes-book.com/about/

[RWhigham]

 

Type I diabetics have no insulin made by their body. With no insulin their cells cannot take up glucose. Without exogenous insulin, the person will literally starve to death and die totally emaciated with all their glucose spilled into urine. Minimizing their sugar intake is not indicated. At meal time their cells have to get enough glucose along with a shot of insulin to last until the next meal.

 

Then there is Dr. Brownstein, a type 1 diabetic, who kept it in check for over 70 years by eliminating sugar and minimizing carbs.

 

http://www.diabetes-book.com/about/

 

If he didn't produce any insulin, he had to use something that can pull the glucose transporters to the surface of cells. It would be nice to have a list of such things. Or perhaps he was able to make some insulin, and was classified as T1D because it was so low.

 

An overview on antidiabetic medicinal plants having insulin mimetic property   What they call "insulin mimetics" are mostly (perhaps all) insulin secretagogues or sensitizers.  If the pancreas of a person with T1D cannot make any insulin at all (or if they don't have a pancreas), insulin secretagogues cannot work, and sensitizers cannot work without some exogenous insulin, albeit at a much lower dose.

Edited by RWhigham, 23 January 2017 - 03:39 PM.

[pamojja]

However, each year I take a 6 week vacation in a high carbing country like India, and each time after such a short time having to eat at least a little rice to be able to stomach fiery spiced vegetables, additional to taking refuge in metformin and berberine, my HbA1c ends up above 6%.

 

In retrospect embarrassing how imprecise and sloppy I described my experience. Sorry for that...

 

More precisely, here I wrongly mingled my repeated testing of post-prandial glucose spikes at home, with actually only one HbA1c tested in India itself, coming back at 6.2% two years ago. (Post-prandial glucose testing in India worked only for the first 3 days for me, after that the test strips go to astronomical numbers. Guess by the high humidity there.)

 

This year vacation been still stricter with carbs, took more Berberine and Metformin more consistently, increased all other botanicals with blood-glucose lowering properties, and HbA1c also tested while still in India came back at 4.9% only. And there was a prominent co-factor for the HbA1c increase 2 years ago: been sick with infections, fever and diarrhea almost half of the six weeks.

 

Gladly, at home don't need Metformin additional to low-carbing and botanicals, since it lowers my serum B12, B9 and CoQ10.

Edited by pamojja, 04 April 2017 - 10:56 AM.

[VesperLynd]

Do you mind sharing details of the botanicals that you use?

[pamojja]

Do you mind sharing details of the botanicals that you use?

 

In India I just add the main available there. Many in combination products. As plain powders, fermented in herbal wines and other concoctions. Indian herbal extracts aren't really standardized, and most often seem to be a mere 2:1 strength. Of which I used:

 

lahsuna, chai, myrrh, haridra, guduchi, ashwagandha, arjuna, amla, bacopa, tulsi, gokshura, shallaki, vasaka, gurmar, shatavari, karela, punarnava, manjishta, haritaki, shilajeet, yashti madhu, neem, shankhapushpi, twak, sunthi, hadjod, vrishamla, mandukaparni, vidanga, bael, shilapuspha, musta, pasanabheda, jambu, kutaja, pippali, tagara, vacha, sarpagandha, saptachakra, chiretta, nagarmusta, vishnukrantha, maricha, jatamansi, vatadha, varuna, kalamegha, kapikacchu, daru haridra, dashamoola, bringaraja, jyotishmati, kutki, dhataki, shyonaka, kokilaksha, kantakari, vridadaru, amra, jivani, pushkarmoola, pitasara, kasani, himsra, gojhiva, ushira, aragvada, saptarangi, kumari, jeeraka, bharangi, sariva, bala, apamarga, mundatika, shirish, kanchanara, dhanyaka, ela, gumbhari, bruhati, kakamachi, draksha, shaileyam, bhumyamalaki, duralabha, shatapushpa, devadaru, eranda, ganhapalashi, barleria, karpasi (from 1000 down to 10mg).

[mikey]

I really, really wished it would. But my experience when I started to monitor blood glucose 7 year ago is the total opposite.

 

It's only the amount of carbs - for me even such seemingly innocents like rice and legumes - which drive postprandial blood glucose to astronomical numbers, and, to a lesser extent, amounts of protein. The only way to lower mean blood glucose, and with it long term HbA1c, was to test blood glucose after each meal, and eliminating the worst offenders.

 

That practically meant going increasingly on a low carbohydrates, moderate protein and very high fat diet. This way I was able to keep my HbA1c in average at 5%. However, each year I take a 6 week vacation in a high carbing country like India, and each time after such a short time having to eat at least a little rice to be able to stomach fiery spiced vegetables, additional to taking refuge in metformin and berberine, my HbA1c ends up above 6%.

 

If one considers that HbA1c measures the glycated haemoglobin from the last 3 months, and that therefore only 50% of it is made up from the exposure to blood glucose from my 6 week vacation, I would end up well above an HbA1c of 7% or fully diabetic if I had to eat any longer that little bid of rice each day.

 

 

Anyone actually testing one's blood glucose can tell you this long list of studies is totally misleading. Though I really would love to be able to eat at least a little bid of rice each day..

 

 

PS: my ferritin always been 2 digits, probably because I've been vegan since 10 years of age..

 

Yours is a very interesting report, especially because you appear to have a great sense of detail, pamojja.  Being vegan makes it much more difficult. What exactly do you eat regularly? Say for breakfast, lunch and dinner? 

[John250]

I suggest having meals that only consist of protein with carbs or protein with fats. Don’t mix fats with carbs. When you eat carbs your insulin increases. When insulin is elevated and fat is present it will turn to fat. Example:
Chicken,rice, veggies= good

Chicken, veggies cooked in oils, some nuts and cheese= good

Chicken, veggies cooked in oils, some nuts and cheese WITH RICE= bad

However, Insulin is the most anabolic hormone possible. I have used steroids, HGH, etc. nothing put more lean clean size on me then Exogenous insulin(humalog) with HGH and flooding my body with the proper ratios of carbohydrates and amino acids with very little fat when insulin was present.

Edited by John250, 14 July 2018 - 01:03 AM.

[pamojja]

Being vegan makes it much more difficult. What exactly do you eat regularly? Say for breakfast, lunch and dinner? 

 

Actually added eggs and fish back in 10 years ago when becoming really sick, detailed here. However, my ubiome result from last year showed my microbiome is still closest to that of a raw food eater.

 

Only eat twice a day. Breakfast usually after 1PM, a muesli with some blueberries, shredded nuts (macadamia, hazel, pekan, wal and coconut), seeds (flax, black and sesame), cocoa powder, a bid of curd, stevia and 2 soft boiled eggs. Dinner usually after 7PM with varied salads, EVOO, apple cidar vinegar, and a little raw cheese. Sometimes steamed vegetables or small wild-caught fish.

 

As snack sometimes a rib of >80% dark chocolate. Since last year I got adventurous and added some boiled beef, like once every season. The last time I checked my macro-nutrient intake about 7 years ago I was at about 2100 kcal/d from diet and 400 from supplements. With a BMI of 20, 68% of calories of my diet came from fats, 19% from protein and 13% from carbs.

 

Came across a study about microbiomes which found much higher diversity in those taking about 30 different plants, compared with little diversity of those taking only 10 different plants for the last weeks. Therefore made a approximate list of what I ate throughout the last year:

 

sauerkraut, red cabbage, kimchi, natto, cucumber, olive, carrot, bell pepper, red beet, tomato, potato starch, celery, chickpeas, bitter gourd, lady finger, garlic, salad, broccoli, cauliflower, spinach, kale, eggplant, onion, radish, kohlrabi, drumstick, lentil, beans = 28
blueberries, apple, orange, avocado, pear, red and black currant, blackberry, papaya, strawberry, grapefruit, pineapple, vinegar = 13
coconut, macadamia, walnut, hazelnut, pekan nut, almond, brazil nut, cashew nut, flax seed, pumpkin seed, sesame seed, black seed, chia seed, sunflower seed, hemp seed, spirulina, chlorella, cocoa powder, coffee, beans, tulsi tea, red wine, black tea, fermented rice (dosa), maize = 24
(eggs, curd, aged cheese, ghee, mackerel, sardines, honey, salmon, cod liver, mollusc, beef =10)
 

So about 75 different plants, of which about 30 during the last 2 weeks. Which is reflected also in my ubiome result, which showed 93% more diversity of all tested.

Edited by pamojja, 14 July 2018 - 11:26 AM.

[triguy]

If he didn't produce any insulin, he had to use something that can pull the glucose transporters to the surface of cells. It would be nice to have a list of such things. Or perhaps he was able to make some insulin, and was classified as T1D because it was so low.

 

An overview on antidiabetic medicinal plants having insulin mimetic property   What they call "insulin mimetics" are mostly (perhaps all) insulin secretagogues or sensitizers.  If the pancreas of a person with T1D cannot make any insulin at all (or if they don't have a pancreas), insulin secretagogues cannot work, and sensitizers cannot work without some exogenous insulin, albeit at a much lower dose.

 

 

anyone know of a good MULTI herbal formula with many of these herbs in it??????

[The Capybara]

I've been using berberine for about 5 years or so, every day (~350mg/tid).

It is easily me favorite herbal supplement. In fact it's likely my favorite supplement period.

I have almost ideal lab results consistently and my GI issues return in a few days if I stop it. That was the original reason for taking it.

Since I know several physicians here, I've advocated their trying the stuff on themselves (metabolic syndrome, lipid issues etc) and one is even trying to get it listed in their formulary.

It's rare that herbals have dramatic positive effects, but this is one that does, with few, if any, side effects due to its extremely poor systemic absorption.

[Benko]

1.  This has been discussed before, but I use jiogulan AKA gynostemma which also increases AMPK. A number of people I've recommended it to have found it helpful in weight loss.  I still can't post links from this computer but if you google "can botanicals replace metformin" you'll find a discussion comparing berberine and gynostemma to metformin. 

 

 

2.  I wonder about the protein + carb or protein + fat theory as their are 4 amino acids themselves which stimulate insulin release (leucine, isoleucine, arginine and alanine).  so proteins themselves can spike insulin. 

[John250]

Seems like it does a lot for neurotransmitters well. Post number 21 here:

https://www.longecit...on/#entry853707

[triguy]

I suggest having meals that only consist of protein with carbs or protein with fats. Don’t mix fats with carbs. When you eat carbs your insulin increases. When insulin is elevated and fat is present it will turn to fat. Example:
Chicken,rice, veggies= good

Chicken, veggies cooked in oils, some nuts and cheese= good

Chicken, veggies cooked in oils, some nuts and cheese WITH RICE= bad

However, Insulin is the most anabolic hormone possible. I have used steroids, HGH, etc. nothing put more lean clean size on me then Exogenous insulin(humalog) with HGH and flooding my body with the proper ratios of carbohydrates and amino acids with very little fat when insulin was present.

 

 

Did you notice abdominal distention growing????

try couple grams of cinnamon

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5622751/

try couple grams of cinnamon

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5622751/

[John250]

Did you notice abdominal distention growing????

try couple grams of cinnamon

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5622751/

try couple grams of cinnamon

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5622751/

Only from bloat in the off-season. But nothing permanent. You need high doses of GH in insulin to get the permanent growth.

Here is a picture about four years ago when I was my biggest at 265. Definitely had some abdominal bloating but it went away when I dieted.

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Edited by John250, 21 July 2018 - 06:24 AM.

[tintinet]

I've been using berberine for about 5 years or so, every day (~350mg/tid).
It is easily me favorite herbal supplement. In fact it's likely my favorite supplement period.
I have almost ideal lab results consistently and my GI issues return in a few days if I stop it. That was the original reason for taking it.
Since I know several physicians here, I've advocated their trying the stuff on themselves (metabolic syndrome, lipid issues etc) and one is even trying to get it listed in their formulary.
It's rare that herbals have dramatic positive effects, but this is one that does, with few, if any, side effects due to its extremely poor systemic absorption.

What’s your preferred brand or source?

[The Capybara]

All commercial brands probably source from the same suppliers in China, so that shouldn't matter.

You can buy bulk powder at a much lower price per gram, however the stuff stains really badly so putting bulk powder in capsules is a pain.

The upside is that bulk powder also avoids fillers. I'd go with the capsules to start.

[dazed1]

Can anyone please explain to me why on some supplements its stated 85% berberine, on others 97%, is this some form of standardization on just a way of stating the purity?

 

What should i look for?

[John250]

Goes Well With

P-glycoprotein (P-Gp) inhibitors increase absorption rate, with Milk Thistle demonstrated in humans and Stephania tetrandra being promising
Sodium caprate (increases absorption, not related to P-Glycoprotein)
Atrogin-1 inhibition (theoretically reverses the possible degradation of lean mass associated with AMPK activation into synthesis)
Does Not Go Well With

Phosphodiesterase inhibitors (can attenuate but not abolish the increase in cAMP that PDE inhibitors result in, and may reduce their fat-burning effects)
Caution Notice

Known to interact with enzymes of Drug Metabolism. Also may interact with microlide antibiotics such as azithromycin and clarithromycin at hERG channels on the heart, leading to serious cardiotoxicity.

[dazed1]

Can anyone please explain to me why on some supplements its stated 85% berberine, on others 97%, is this some form of standardization on just a way of stating the purity?

 

What should i look for?

 

Anyone? :/

[The Capybara]

Yes. That's just the berberine percentage, which can be viewed as purity.

The higher the purity the more you generally pay.

When you try and get a higher purity approaching 100%, you typically pay a lot more for each percentage point because it's generally far more difficult to do the purification process.

It's not always bad to have a lower purity so long as the impurities are benign. Sometimes you may want impurities since they can be complementary and even beneficial, such as using inexpensive ground turmeric rather than a purified curcumin extract that costs so much more.

[dazed1]

Thanks! So where can one buy bulk berberine? (worldwide shipping?) and from reliable store? i find some on ebay, but the price is to good to be true, or did berberin get dirty cheap lately? 500 grams 50 usd, what???

 

 

[Kimer Med]

Thanks! So where can one buy bulk berberine? (worldwide shipping?) and from reliable store? i find some on ebay, but the price is to good to be true, or did berberin get dirty cheap lately? 500 grams 50 usd, what???

 

Berberine is available here: Solaray, 250mg.

[mikey]

Berberine is available here: Solaray, 250mg.

Berberine will be bigger than curcumin. Watch.