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Cryonics and the soul

cryonics soul afterlife

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#61 Rib Jig

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 08:58 PM

You seem to have evidence.

 

Same evidence available to all via Google search:

 

https://www.google.c...ic age reversal



#62 shadowhawk

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 09:08 PM

 

 

No but yes.

 

Death can be reversible. It is reversible at least for some of the embryos, and it is reversible for at least some of the freshly death people in the emergency departments.

 

Death is to stop being alive.

To be alive is to match the requirements given from the biology.

One of the main requirements is the cellular metabolism to work.

The embryo in the dewar with liquid nitrogen is with stopped metabolism.

So while in the dewar the embryo is death.

When it is thawed the metabolism starts working again.

The embryo again matches the biologial requirements for being alive.

So the embryo revives.

 

The time an embryo is viable even when frozen is limited. Says who? Teoretically it can stay there unchanges forever. From your first link the interviewed is not so sure, but even he still gives it 200 years.

Can you kill an embryo if it is already dead?  Why do scientists speak of dead embryos?  They do not come back alive.

 

 

I think, that you simply play with definitions here.

 

Death is to stop being alive. That stoppage can be two types - reversible and non-reversible.

E.g. the death can be reversible and non-reversible.

 

Your definition of death is only the non-reversible death. That is wrong.

 

The embryo is dead in the dewar and is revived after thawing. That is that.

 

The scientists are discussing it and it is not a play on definitions.  You have NOT answered my questions.  Can you kill a embryo?  According to you all embryos are dead.  So , you can't kill them.  :)  They are already dead.  They are only a very few cells.  How about development of more than a couple hundred cells? 

Can they die and come back?  When does the soul connect?



#63 seivtcho

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 09:34 PM

Can you kill an embryo - if you mean while cryopreserved, no. It is dead. But you can make the death irreversible. 

 

For more than a couple hundred cells it depends on your beliefs. Do you believe, that the future science will revive them even if not correctly preserved? 

 

P.S. 

 

  When does the soul connect?

 

You say that. You are a theist. I dont believe in the soul. 

 

 

Plus the later the soul comes in, the better - we may use cloned embryos to harvest organs before the soul to have connected. 

 


Edited by seivtcho, 31 January 2017 - 09:38 PM.


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#64 shadowhawk

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 09:59 PM

Can you kill an embryo - if you mean while cryopreserved, no. It is dead. But you can do the death irreversible. 

 

For more than a couple hundred cells it depends on your beliefs. Do you believe, that the future science will revive them even if not correctly preserved? 

 

Of coarse I am talking about now.Do I believe in the long (to me) run everything purely physical dies?  Yes.  I base that on current science.  Make believe?  I need some data to support my belief.  I do not think a cryopreserved embryo is dead and when they are no longer viable they can't be revived.  They are dead.  I will leave it to science to answer the question as they do in the links I provided.  There should be no problem with disposing of "dead" embryos if they are already dead but there is because they are still alive.  True death is not  reversible by physical means.  Someday the entire physical cosmos will die and nothing will remain..  Long before that nothing like you will exist.  I am not happy about it but the evidence is overwhelming. 

 



#65 YOLF

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 10:52 PM

 

Of course, we may get to the future and things may change drastically, and the spirit will be so good at making perfect souls in comparison to what we see today that we have quite a bit of adjustment to make and the future views the spirits of today as demons. But at the same time, so much of that which causes demons and hellfire will out paced by the mankind's goodness. Personally, I'm not getting too attached to today's, It's unlikely that I'll live as part of it for more than another 50 or so years, but the spirit of the future, that I will live with for eons. The Apollonian Path it would seem is classic.

There is nothing here but philosophy and a kind of religion.  What is the Spirit of the future?  Hellfire and demons.  Goodness.  Don't be attached.  The Apollonian Path.  Interesting. 

 

Just beong hopeful. The idea behind the Apollonian way is that you remain flexible. Don't fight what you don't understand, go forward in order to learn and explore.



#66 shadowhawk

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 11:00 PM

 

 

Of course, we may get to the future and things may change drastically, and the spirit will be so good at making perfect souls in comparison to what we see today that we have quite a bit of adjustment to make and the future views the spirits of today as demons. But at the same time, so much of that which causes demons and hellfire will out paced by the mankind's goodness. Personally, I'm not getting too attached to today's, It's unlikely that I'll live as part of it for more than another 50 or so years, but the spirit of the future, that I will live with for eons. The Apollonian Path it would seem is classic.

There is nothing here but philosophy and a kind of religion.  What is the Spirit of the future?  Hellfire and demons.  Goodness.  Don't be attached.  The Apollonian Path.  Interesting. 

 

Just beong hopeful. The idea behind the Apollonian way is that you remain flexible. Don't fight what you don't understand, go forward in order to learn and explore.

 

 

I like that.  We truly understand little.  At best we have probability and curiosity is part of being alive.  Faith.  Thanks.
 



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#67 YOLF

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 11:00 PM

 

 

 

I had read something to the contrary. That embryos had been used well beyond their "expiration" date and yielded healthy people on numerous occasion and that it's really more a matter of the state of aging within the mother. Perhaps there is more of a risk of earthquakes oslt causing too many fractures to be repaired while frozen, and this is a function of time, but there's no reason they can't just replace the rubber feet on the freezers more often and make other adjustments to the process. More frozen embryos are likely to die because we haven't cured aging, than are likely to die due to some imaginary expiration date imo. The work of prolifists should therefor include treatments for complete rejuvenation, otherwise use of frozen embryos might as well be termed irresponsible in many cases. How many lives go to waste for reproductive medicine that just isn't sufficiently advanced? Though tbf, I'm not terribly well versed on these matters. But I do understand that such hormone treatments are considered risks for developing cancers and other ill health, and that the age of the mother, as we haven't yet cured aging, is still a factor in the health of the child, even if the embryo was frozen when they were young, or even if they attempt to repair it using genetic therapies.

 

 

 

 

Say 200 years.  That is the time frame for an expiration date that I have seen.  But a moment in the grand scheme  of things.  No embryo existing today is that old.  There is an expiration date and it is not that old.  There is a degradation as the frozen embryo ages.  We are dealing with few cells.  We are not speaking of large body parts or anything like complete bodies which is a much greater problem.  The entire cosmos is dying.  Everything that is ONLY physical dies including what is frozen.  So how do you know what happens to the spirit if there is one?

 

You remind me strongly of Rau Le Creuset in a TV series I once watched... Try to be more hopeful and know that we're making progress, or that if we're not in this case, we're making excuses to discard these embryos b/c no one wants them.

 

I also explained that the elect are witness to the spirit. So they see it and so like anything else, can measure it. YMMV and some do it better than others... But anyone who is too consumed by it is likely to be lost.

 

What???  Perhaps I am lost.  How do you measure the Spirit?   What is YMMV?

 

YMMV = your mileage may vary, or in this case, capacity to measure.

 

Perhaps I've misunderstood my semantics, idk, but forgetting that, is my answer more clear? Measuring the spirit is measuring the impact a person has on you or others.



#68 YOLF

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 11:04 PM

Cryonics will forever remain an unhatched egg.

Genetic age reversal is already dealing with mammals successfully.

No brain stoppage involved.  No soul searching required.

Younger. Smarter. Memories unblemished.

What of those currently suspended. Do we give up on them? Idts.



#69 Rib Jig

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 11:35 PM

What of those currently suspended. Do we give up on them?

 

We?  WE?  Do you own cryonics agency with contractual obligations?


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#70 YOLF

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 12:21 AM

Well, no, but cryoppl have the stated intention of fulfilling their contract and it is assumed that at some point cryonics won't be needed so much and will be a regular medical insurance item rather than a life insurance item. cryoppl are also suspended pending the discovery of rejuvenation technology. So as long as they don't commit fraud or lose all of their assets, you should remain in storage until they can bring you back.



#71 seivtcho

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 06:07 PM

 

Can you kill an embryo - if you mean while cryopreserved, no. It is dead. But you can do the death irreversible. 

 

For more than a couple hundred cells it depends on your beliefs. Do you believe, that the future science will revive them even if not correctly preserved? 

 

Of coarse I am talking about now.Do I believe in the long (to me) run everything purely physical dies?  Yes.  I base that on current science.  Make believe?  I need some data to support my belief.  I do not think a cryopreserved embryo is dead and when they are no longer viable they can't be revived.  They are dead.  I will leave it to science to answer the question as they do in the links I provided.  There should be no problem with disposing of "dead" embryos if they are already dead but there is because they are still alive.  True death is not  reversible by physical means.  Someday the entire physical cosmos will die and nothing will remain..  Long before that nothing like you will exist.  I am not happy about it but the evidence is overwhelming. 

 

 

In brief, you dont believe in the science and the progress of the human mind and capabilities. At least not to the extent to believe, that the human kind will be able to do absolutely everything. Because absolutely everything includes reviving unproperly frozen corpses, and stopping absolutely all possible means for the human extinction. For that - lets say OK. It is based on the current information. You dont see these solutions nowadays, and you cant be sure they will come true. You cant or you dont want to go out of the box and open your imagination.

 

For the rest you are not right.

Each scientist will agree, that while in the dewar the embryo is dead. Those, who wont agree simply dont know or have forgotten the things that something alive must to have in order to be named alive in accordance to the definition of life from the current biology. It is logical something that has no metabolism not to be alive.



#72 YOLF

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 06:46 PM

I guess what it comes down to is that we want that chance to live young for a long time which may come and if given that chance, most of us will live very long and satisfying lives of perpetual youth. Yes, some will die, an anvil is bound to fall on someone's head... and if given enough time, most will decide they've had enough, or human civilization will grow so large that we'll forget where we put most of it. Maybe instead of dying, people will sign up for the CryoCorps in order to defend mankind from being eaten by aliens someday. But those who die might still get another chance and another story may be told. 



#73 shadowhawk

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 06:54 PM

 

 

Can you kill an embryo - if you mean while cryopreserved, no. It is dead. But you can do the death irreversible. 

 

For more than a couple hundred cells it depends on your beliefs. Do you believe, that the future science will revive them even if not correctly preserved? 

 

Of coarse I am talking about now.Do I believe in the long (to me) run everything purely physical dies?  Yes.  I base that on current science.  Make believe?  I need some data to support my belief.  I do not think a cryopreserved embryo is dead and when they are no longer viable they can't be revived.  They are dead.  I will leave it to science to answer the question as they do in the links I provided.  There should be no problem with disposing of "dead" embryos if they are already dead but there is because they are still alive.  True death is not  reversible by physical means.  Someday the entire physical cosmos will die and nothing will remain..  Long before that nothing like you will exist.  I am not happy about it but the evidence is overwhelming. 

 

 

In brief, you dont believe in the science and the progress of the human mind and capabilities. At least not to the extent to believe, that the human kind will be able to do absolutely everything. Because absolutely everything includes reviving unproperly frozen corpses, and stopping absolutely all possible means for the human extinction. For that - lets say OK. It is based on the current information. You dont see these solutions nowadays, and you cant be sure they will come true. You cant or you dont want to go out of the box and open your imagination.

 

For the rest you are not right.

Each scientist will agree, that while in the dewar the embryo is dead. Those, who wont agree simply dont know or have forgotten the things that something alive must to have in order to be named alive in accordance to the definition of life from the current biology. It is logical something that has no metabolism not to be alive.

 

Tell me, What is Science?  What is the progress of the human mind and capabilities?  I want to know if you know what you are talking about.  Can the human mind do everything we can imagine?  There is a God if this is proof!  The metabolism can be slowed down and stopped by modern medicine using various techniques for different reasons.  The people are not dead.  An embryo of 200 or less cells can be stopped from developing further but that does not mean they are dead.  I hope you are not stuck in your imagination.  A frozen embryo can be killed.  Some die and can't be revived..  Can you imagine that!

 



#74 shadowhawk

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 07:02 PM

I guess what it comes down to is that we want that chance to live young for a long time which may come and if given that chance, most of us will live very long and satisfying lives of perpetual youth. Yes, some will die, an anvil is bound to fall on someone's head... and if given enough time, most will decide they've had enough, or human civilization will grow so large that we'll forget where we put most of it. Maybe instead of dying, people will sign up for the CryoCorps in order to defend mankind from being eaten by aliens someday. But those who die might still get another chance and another story may be told. 

OK.  :) I do hope the aliens do not get us.

 


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#75 seivtcho

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 11:43 AM

 

 

 

Can you kill an embryo - if you mean while cryopreserved, no. It is dead. But you can do the death irreversible. 

 

For more than a couple hundred cells it depends on your beliefs. Do you believe, that the future science will revive them even if not correctly preserved? 

 

Of coarse I am talking about now.Do I believe in the long (to me) run everything purely physical dies?  Yes.  I base that on current science.  Make believe?  I need some data to support my belief.  I do not think a cryopreserved embryo is dead and when they are no longer viable they can't be revived.  They are dead.  I will leave it to science to answer the question as they do in the links I provided.  There should be no problem with disposing of "dead" embryos if they are already dead but there is because they are still alive.  True death is not  reversible by physical means.  Someday the entire physical cosmos will die and nothing will remain..  Long before that nothing like you will exist.  I am not happy about it but the evidence is overwhelming. 

 

 

In brief, you dont believe in the science and the progress of the human mind and capabilities. At least not to the extent to believe, that the human kind will be able to do absolutely everything. Because absolutely everything includes reviving unproperly frozen corpses, and stopping absolutely all possible means for the human extinction. For that - lets say OK. It is based on the current information. You dont see these solutions nowadays, and you cant be sure they will come true. You cant or you dont want to go out of the box and open your imagination.

 

For the rest you are not right.

Each scientist will agree, that while in the dewar the embryo is dead. Those, who wont agree simply dont know or have forgotten the things that something alive must to have in order to be named alive in accordance to the definition of life from the current biology. It is logical something that has no metabolism not to be alive.

 

Tell me, What is Science?  What is the progress of the human mind and capabilities?  I want to know if you know what you are talking about.  Can the human mind do everything we can imagine?  There is a God if this is proof!  The metabolism can be slowed down and stopped by modern medicine using various techniques for different reasons.  The people are not dead.  An embryo of 200 or less cells can be stopped from developing further but that does not mean they are dead.  I hope you are not stuck in your imagination.  A frozen embryo can be killed.  Some die and can't be revived..  Can you imagine that!

 

 

By science and the progress of the human mind I mean absolutely everything, that the people have done so far, and can do now and in the future, thanks to their brain. Here are included the technological progress, the official sciences and specialities, listed in the government law lists, such as medicine and the medical specialities for example. Everything, that the human kind has done thanks to the brain. Even the architecture and the arts. Everything this constantly develops and opens more and more possibilities.

 

And yes, I believe, that the human brain can do everything it imagine. Not now, at very this moment, and an exact, speciphical brain, but later, thanks to the accumulation of knowledge of all people whoived, all who are alive now, and all people who will live from now on. The thigs that are possible constantly grow innumber. If something cant be done today, sooner or later it will becom possible.

 

An embryo of 200 or less cells can be stopped from developing further, and its metabolism can be stopped, and that eactly means it is dead. Even if you can revive it further. That are the facts. Sorry if they are not compatable with your ideology.

 

I am not stuck in my imagination. You are :) "There is a God" and all imagination starts and ends here lol.



#76 shadowhawk

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 09:02 PM

Science is a method not a position.  It supports some things with evidence and rules SOME THINGS OUT.  If some things have no evidence and are not established as true they are probably not.  Absolutely everything is not true.  Advances in knowledge rule some things out.  There is no evidence the human brain can do everything.  When you say not now, you point to one limitation but there are many more.  Things that are possible grow but so does things impossible.  As for the claim that frozen embryos being dead it reminds me of someone claiming seeds are dead.  Go ahead and BELIEVE that but it lacks evidence and many scientists do not hold that position.  You are the one claiming anything you can imagine is true.  It is off topic but I can think of many examples that are not.  As we learn more, possibles are expanded and limited.



#77 Hip

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 12:45 AM

Sorry, you lost me somewhere in that first sentence. I'm not familiar with all this quantum consciousness stuff. Where did you learn it? Was it something that took alot time?

 

It's definitely not an easy subject, but I studied physics and quantum mechanics (only at graduate level though), and have a particular interest in theories of consciousness, especially quantum consciousness.

 

 

 

So if I use a ultrasound on my head or some other vibration device, I'm disrupting the state of any given molecule in my brain at that time. Does it change who I am?

 

Not unless the vibration is intense enough to disrupt the microtubule structures, and I am not aware of any form of vibration that is. But if you could break down the microtubules and their pumped energy system, then consciousness would disappear, according to the theory. 

 

Interestingly enough, Hameroff et al has proposed that Alzheimer's may be due to a zinc-induced destabilization of microtubules. Thus the insidious slow loss of consciousness and loss of self that occurs in Alzheimer's may in fact utlimately be due to the destruction of the very bits of cellular machinery that it is proposed produces consciousness, the microtubules.


Edited by Hip, 03 February 2017 - 12:45 AM.


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#78 seivtcho

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 07:04 AM

Science is a method not a position.  It supports some things with evidence and rules SOME THINGS OUT.  If some things have no evidence and are not established as true they are probably not.  Absolutely everything is not true.  Advances in knowledge rule some things out.  There is no evidence the human brain can do everything.  When you say not now, you point to one limitation but there are many more.  Things that are possible grow but so does things impossible.  As for the claim that frozen embryos being dead it reminds me of someone claiming seeds are dead.  Go ahead and BELIEVE that but it lacks evidence and many scientists do not hold that position.  You are the one claiming anything you can imagine is true.  It is off topic but I can think of many examples that are not.  As we learn more, possibles are expanded and limited.

 

Who told you, that there are limits? Proove there are limits to the advances of the human brain. I think that the products of the human brain will develope until everything that we imagine today will be possible. 

 

The embryo is dead while cryopreserved is a FACT not a BELIEF. Those medical doctors who claim the embryo is still alive while in the dewar with the liquid nitrogen simply have forgotten the rules of the biology for being alive. 

I dont know about the one, who has claimed that the seeds are dead too. But if they dont have a metabolism, then he is correct. While a seed the plant is dead. NO METABOLISM - NO LIFE !!!! 



#79 YOLF

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 01:51 PM

 

Sorry, you lost me somewhere in that first sentence. I'm not familiar with all this quantum consciousness stuff. Where did you learn it? Was it something that took alot time?

 

It's definitely not an easy subject, but I studied physics and quantum mechanics (only at graduate level though), and have a particular interest in theories of consciousness, especially quantum consciousness.

 

 

 

So if I use a ultrasound on my head or some other vibration device, I'm disrupting the state of any given molecule in my brain at that time. Does it change who I am?

 

Not unless the vibration is intense enough to disrupt the microtubule structures, and I am not aware of any form of vibration that is. But if you could break down the microtubules and their pumped energy system, then consciousness would disappear, according to the theory. 

 

Interestingly enough, Hameroff et al has proposed that Alzheimer's may be due to a zinc-induced destabilization of microtubules. Thus the insidious slow loss of consciousness and loss of self that occurs in Alzheimer's may in fact utlimately be due to the destruction of the very bits of cellular machinery that it is proposed produces consciousness, the microtubules.

 

I was just drawing parallels for illustration. I have not problem with my understanding of it.



#80 shadowhawk

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 09:18 PM

 

Science is a method not a position.  It supports some things with evidence and rules SOME THINGS OUT.  If some things have no evidence and are not established as true they are probably not.  Absolutely everything is not true.  Advances in knowledge rule some things out.  There is no evidence the human brain can do everything.  When you say not now, you point to one limitation but there are many more.  Things that are possible grow but so does things impossible.  As for the claim that frozen embryos being dead it reminds me of someone claiming seeds are dead.  Go ahead and BELIEVE that but it lacks evidence and many scientists do not hold that position.  You are the one claiming anything you can imagine is true.  It is off topic but I can think of many examples that are not.  As we learn more, possibles are expanded and limited.

 

Who told you, that there are limits? Proove there are limits to the advances of the human brain. I think that the products of the human brain will develope until everything that we imagine today will be possible. 

 

The embryo is dead while cryopreserved is a FACT not a BELIEF. Those medical doctors who claim the embryo is still alive while in the dewar with the liquid nitrogen simply have forgotten the rules of the biology for being alive. 

I dont know about the one, who has claimed that the seeds are dead too. But if they dont have a metabolism, then he is correct. While a seed the plant is dead. NO METABOLISM - NO LIFE !!!! 

 

 

You don't get it.  Science demonstrates some things are possible and also some things are improbable.  It does not depend on lala imagination.  As for a seed being dead There is no use arguing about it.  Can you kill a seed?  I argue yes I can.  Arrested development does not mean something is dead.  The human brain has not solved even close to everything  There are more stars in our galaxy than we have brain cells..  There are more galaxies than stars.  We do not have the capacity to imagine everything.  Your reality is to small.  Who told me there are limits?  Well I learned that from all kinds of life experience.  Apparently you have yet to learn this not because you are advanced.  You are not even close to living in the lala world you imagine exists.  Why?  Because it doesn't exist.  We are wonderfully made but there are limits.
 



#81 seivtcho

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Posted 04 February 2017 - 04:39 PM

If some scientist claims, that something is impossible, usually he is wrong. And the future confirms him wrong.

 

Development depends exactly from lala imagination. Everything you have arround you has been a lala imagination.

Do you have a printed copy of the Bible? Prinying books has been a lala imagination. If lala didnt exist you now would be surrounded by other fanatics like you,and you would be copying the Bible with ink and a feather. You have seen an ink, right? It also has been a lala. If the lala didnt exist ypou would be in a cave unshaven and you would jump arround the cave and repeat "There is a Goood! There is a Goood!"

 

My reality is limitless. May lala world exists and it is arround me. And arround you. You live in the lala fantasies from the past. "We do not have the capacity to imagine everything" and this is an argument for me, not for you.



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#82 shadowhawk

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Posted 07 February 2017 - 12:16 AM

If some scientist claims, that something is impossible, usually he is wrong. And the future confirms him wrong.

 

Development depends exactly from lala imagination. Everything you have arround you has been a lala imagination.

Do you have a printed copy of the Bible? Prinying books has been a lala imagination. If lala didnt exist you now would be surrounded by other fanatics like you,and you would be copying the Bible with ink and a feather. You have seen an ink, right? It also has been a lala. If the lala didnt exist ypou would be in a cave unshaven and you would jump arround the cave and repeat "There is a Goood! There is a Goood!"

 

My reality is limitless. May lala world exists and it is arround me. And arround you. You live in the lala fantasies from the past. "We do not have the capacity to imagine everything" and this is an argument for me, not for you.

I agree, your lala is limitless but I don't agree what you mentioned was he result of lala.  You seem to completely ignore reason and have digressed to jumping around in a cave hoping for more lala to save you.  OK but this has gone completely off track.  :wacko:  Have a good day.

 



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