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Nicotinic Acid without Anti-inflammation is Useless - Statins/Butyrate

niacin nicotinic acid inflammation cholesterol statins butyrate

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#1 Adam Karlovsky

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Posted 24 January 2017 - 01:44 AM


Just an opinion piece based on the research I've done so far...

 

Global inflammation effects HDL in two ways... high inflammation decreases HDL, but also morphs the structure of existing HDL.

 

HDL only functions correctly (reverse cholesterol transport and protects LDL from oxidation) when there are low levels of global inflammation in the body. In other words, you can have high HDL, but if none of it is functional, you effectively have low HDL. Particle size is important too, but not relevant to this specific discussion.

 

Results for trials using Nicotinic Acid (NA) have been pretty poor, and I think the reason is that most people on statins have really high levels of inflammation. Statins work because they have an anti-inflammatory component to their mechanism of action, they change the functionality of the HDL that exists in circulation.

 

So my hypothesis is that NA-only therapy would be much more successful if taken in conjunction with strong anti-inflammatory compounds, and that the success of NA+anti-inflammatory would depend on how much a problem lipid-based cvd risk and inflammation is for the particular person.

Take butyrate as an example of NIACR1 agonism functioning properly. Butyrate is strongly anti-inflammatory, and lowers cholesterol through the same receptor mechanism as NA, and I think it would be a really good therapy for people with dyslipidemia and high risk of cvd, if only the right dosage could be administered cheaply and easily. The reason people don't use butyrate over NA is that it's less potent at the receptor, so you need grams and grams of the stuff vs miligrams of NA... so, can we make an NA stack function like butyrate? Perhaps if we co-administered anti-inflammatory HDAC inhibitors, we'd see good results with NA.

 

Or perhaps we just find a cheap and comfortable way to megadose butyrate?

 

Enjoy my brainfarts,
Adam


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#2 SearchHorizon

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 01:34 AM

How does butyrate work?  Also, what is the mechanism of action for NA you are talking about? 

 

I have looked into NA's mechanism of action, and it does not appear to be simple. What I recollect is that orally administered NA leads to temporary stimulation of glycolysis, after which the body responds by releasing large amount of triglyceride into the plasma. This particular model is consistent with the observation that NA can lead to insulin insensitivity in some individuals. If this model is correct, then its cholesterol lowering effect appears to be due to the body's overcompensation for its initial glycolysis ust after NA ingestion.

 

I have had someone close to me take NA regularly (.75 g daily). Over time, intolerance built up. She began exhibiting signs of increased insulin insensitivity (e.g., loss of appetite, nausea, etc.). When she stopped taking NA, all the symptoms faded away.

 

 

 



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#3 PeaceAndProsperity

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 02:49 PM

Sorry, but this is old baloney. NA is not ineffective versus patented drugs. It's many orders of magnitude more efficient. Another example of patented drugs and #FakeStudies. Also, NA is an antiinflammatory in various tissues, how are statins superior to NA in terms of this? Why would you need to pair NA, which already has great antiinflammatory properties, with another drug with the same properties?

 


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#4 PeaceAndProsperity

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 02:54 PM

I have had someone close to me take NA regularly (.75 g daily). Over time, intolerance built up. She began exhibiting signs of increased insulin insensitivity (e.g., loss of appetite, nausea, etc.). When she stopped taking NA, all the symptoms faded away.

It's true that some people can be vulnerable to NA's effects on blood sugar levels, like myself, but let me remind you of the fact that studies have shown that the effects of NA are insignificant and nothing to worry about and people have been taking 3g for years with no issues whatsoever in respect to this effect. So, I would say this is another overstated side-effect.

 


 


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#5 SearchHorizon

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 07:01 AM

It's true that some people can be vulnerable to NA's effects on blood sugar levels, like myself, but let me remind you of the fact that studies have shown that the effects of NA are insignificant and nothing to worry about and people have been taking 3g for years with no issues whatsoever in respect to this effect. So, I would say this is another overstated side-effect.

 

 

There is usually two sides to a story. (1) I have seen a couple of studies that show negative effects of niacin, with respect to insulin insensitivity. I don't remember if the  effects were trivial (as you asserted) or even if they were applicable to humans, but it was enough to have me revise my thinking on niacin (I have been taking it for years, BTW and am still taking it). (2) there have been reports of liver toxicity starting at around 3 g and upwards (especially with time release versions). 

 

I feel that almost no supplement/drug works as "advertised" by research studies. I don't know if that statement should apply to NA, but given my experience with all other supplements, I'd still treat it with kid gloves.



#6 Kabb

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 10:21 PM

Sorry, but this is old baloney. NA is not ineffective versus patented drugs. It's many orders of magnitude more efficient. Another example of patented drugs and #FakeStudies. Also, NA is an antiinflammatory in various tissues, how are statins superior to NA in terms of this? Why would you need to pair NA, which already has great antiinflammatory properties, with another drug with the same properties?

 

Hello PeaceAndProsperity.  So I can understand this discussion better, can you or anyone else say why several reputable B Complex vendors would use both nicotinic acid as well as nicotinamide.  

 

Jarrow uses 100mg nicotinic acid and 100mg nicotinamide in its B complex 25.  Life Extension and Doctor's Best also use both those forms of niacin in their B complex.

 

Is there something about nicotinic acid which provides benefit before it gets metabolised into nicotinamide?



#7 PeaceAndProsperity

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 11:33 PM

 

Hello PeaceAndProsperity.  So I can understand this discussion better, can you or anyone else say why several reputable B Complex vendors would use both nicotinic acid as well as nicotinamide.  

 

Jarrow uses 100mg nicotinic acid and 100mg nicotinamide in its B complex 25.  Life Extension and Doctor's Best also use both those forms of niacin in their B complex.

 

Is there something about nicotinic acid which provides benefit before it gets metabolised into nicotinamide?

 

Unless you dose NA properly in the 500mg+ range I don't think there are any benefits at those doses. Probably just to cater to customers with opposing indoctrinations.


 


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#8 Kabb

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 09:20 AM

 

 

Hello PeaceAndProsperity.  So I can understand this discussion better, can you or anyone else say why several reputable B Complex vendors would use both nicotinic acid as well as nicotinamide.  

 

Jarrow uses 100mg nicotinic acid and 100mg nicotinamide in its B complex 25.  Life Extension and Doctor's Best also use both those forms of niacin in their B complex.

 

Is there something about nicotinic acid which provides benefit before it gets metabolised into nicotinamide?

 

Unless you dose NA properly in the 500mg+ range I don't think there are any benefits at those doses. Probably just to cater to customers with opposing indoctrinations.

Would those benefits of high dose NA be mainly for cholesterol control?  I am trying to understand whether to take nicotinic acid or nicotinamide for mitochondrial electron transport chain performance.  Do you have a view on which of those two forms would be preferable?

 

(I can't afford nicotinamide riboside and anyway that seems better for mitochondrial regeneration rather than simply enhancing mitochondrial performance.)  

 



#9 PeaceAndProsperity

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 11:55 AM

 


Unless you dose NA properly in the 500mg+ range I don't think there are any benefits at those doses. Probably just to cater to customers with opposing indoctrinations.

Would those benefits of high dose NA be mainly for cholesterol control?  I am trying to understand whether to take nicotinic acid or nicotinamide for mitochondrial electron transport chain performance.  Do you have a view on which of those two forms would be preferable?

 

(I can't afford nicotinamide riboside and anyway that seems better for mitochondrial regeneration rather than simply enhancing mitochondrial performance.)

Definitely take NA. Don't listen to the paid shills who tell you to take NR or any other patented stuff. With NA you get protection from various diseases of old age including cognitive decline, heart disease (almost all aspects of it), potentially cancer and more.
 


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#10 MikeDC

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 12:02 PM

NA has some benefits in aging because it is a NAD+ precursor. But it's effect is limited because the pathway has rate limiting step and the rate gets slower and slower as we age. NR uses a different pathway so NR can add to NAD+ in additional to the regular recycling path way. Two rivers fill the NAD+ reservoire with NR instead of one with NA.
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#11 Kabb

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 12:46 PM

Definitely take NA. Don't listen to the paid shills who tell you to take NR or any other patented stuff. With NA you get protection from various diseases of old age including cognitive decline, heart disease (almost all aspects of it), potentially cancer and more.

 

 

 

I was wondering more about choosing between nicotinic acid and to its amide form, nicotinamide.  I can't afford anything fancier than one of those.  

 

Any views on which is best for electron transport chain performance?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by Kabb, 26 March 2017 - 12:48 PM.






Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: niacin, nicotinic acid, inflammation, cholesterol, statins, butyrate

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