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For the fear of Snakes


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#1 Bruce Klein

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Posted 01 March 2003 - 08:09 AM


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- SAILLE WILLOW

For the fear of Snakes

Inspired by;
“ Most people fear snakes and they're rightly justified in that some snakes are poisonous and can kill."
B.J. Klein

As a child I had a phobia of snakes. It was so bad that I could not even look at a picture of a snake.

I was brought up in an Orthodox Christian environment. Nederduitse Gereformeerde Kerk. [Dutch reformed] In that conservative environment, the snake was the symbol of evil. The first thing you become aware of as a girl-child is that you as a female are somehow responsible for the suffering of mankind. For just being a woman I was lumped with the quilt of bringing sin and death to humanity.

Genesis 3:15-16 "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed…
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be thy husband, and he shall rule over thee"

With those words I was condemned to a life of quilt, sorrow and subjugation. This was my bedtime story. When I was in a rebellious mood against my fate, my mother told me sadly; " 'n Vrou moet alteid die mindere wees." (A Women must always be the lesser.)" I shall never get married, never have children and never die, that will be my revenge." I promised myself. Why did God ever make snakes if he knew women were so easily seduced? Everything in me shouted at the unfairness of my sentence and somehow the snake was to blame for my fate, my mortal enemy. The only good snake is a dead snake.

To have a phobia of snakes in Africa is not comfortable, as you attract what you fear. Wherever you go, you are likely to come across a snake. Very likely poisonous ones too. Often as children we used to listen wide-eyed to horror stories about snakes. One such story that made the biggest impact on me was the snake that crawled into a woman's bed. When she climbed in, it leaped out and bit her in the lip. Very likely it was a Rinkals (Spitting Cobra). The farmers called them naughty snakes, because they were the ones that liked coming inside the house.

After that story, going to bed at night was a painful routine. First I looked under my bed then I smoothed the bedding from top to bottom to make sure there was no strange lump there. I would turn the light off and with one mighty leap, jump straight into bed so that I could not step on a snake in the dark on my way to bed.

Then the dreaming would begin. Night after night, I had dreams of a barren world covered in nothing but mud and snakes. (Like the Indiana Jones' snake pit.) Even the trees had snakes instead of leaves. I had to walk across the snakes and often as I started to walk, I would sink between the snakes and the mud to a world below. This world of red mud was inhabited by beings, half snake/half human. I was very scared.

These snake nightmares continued until one night I had a different dream that I was standing in a field of tall dry wintergrass. The environment I most feared walking in, for you cannot see the snake in the grass. I could feel the presence of a snake. A man appeared, the classic image of the sage, white robed with a long white beard and hair. “Fear not the snake, for he is as much part of nature as you are, become one with nature and he will not harm you." he said.
I felt a warm breeze on my skin, and in its caress I felt my fear drain away. I could walk fearlessly through the grass, experiencing the freedom in the touch of the grass, the warmth of the sun, the breath of the wind. The snake slithered away to find a comfortable spot on a sun-warmed rock.

Step one in dealing with fear is to realise there is no evil over which you have no control, helplessly at the mercy of.

Know thy enemy, know thyself.

Soon after the snake in the grass dream, I was presented with the opportunity to stroke a python. No longer did I have the snake dreams; no longer was the snake the symbol of the devil incarnated, but part of nature. I was ready to stroke the python. I was still afraid of snakes, but I was determined to break the curse I was born with.

I expected the touch of the snake's skin to be slimy and smooth, instead it was dry and rough. I stroked it and could feel the immense strength that lay latent under the scales. Ironic it should have been a Striper's dance partner.

"… Eve wanted to know, and in order to do that she first had to experience."
Caitlin Matthews; Sophia, Goddess of Wisdom


" In the legends of Troy and the Trojan women, Cassandra, daughter of Hecuba, was gifted with prophecy. She gained her gift as a child at Delphi when she stroked the Pythons of Gaea's temple. Gaea, the Python, was the Goddess of oracles and mother/creator of the Earth… The python/serpent is a metaphor for the Goddess of creation in cultures world-wide."
Diane Stein; Stroking the Python.

If the snake is not the Satan incarnated, then what is it? I wanted to know the truth about the snake. I was surprised to learn that in most other cultures the snake did not embody sin and death, but rather the creative and transformative forces; sexuality, psychic, reproduction, alchemy and immortality. Thoth/Hermes was the father of Alchemy. He used the symbology of two snakes intertwining around a sword to represent healing. Complete understanding and acceptance of the male and female within each organism creates fusion of the two into one, thereby producing a transmuting energy.

" The mythological god associated with this stage (regeneration) is Pluto, husband to Persephone, who rules the underworld. During this stage we make the descent into our unconscious, where the rejected and denied parts of ourselves reside. It is these contents, called the 'shadow' in Jungian psychology, that take on the forms of demons who seem to take possession of us and incite us to create a reality that is terrifying and destructive. Our shadow has a reservoir of tightly coiled, focused, and concentrated energy at its disposal, which can be used either to harm others or transform ourselves. This god penetrates to our core in order to reveal our deepest root issues; he destroys in order to renew, and he holds the power to transform and effect change. "
Demetra George; Mysteries of the Dark Moon.

At this time I became aware of a deep yearning inside myself. My dreams of snakes were replaced by dreams of haunting and it was dark. Some nights the moon shone bright and full and at other times it was dark. What is life in a world where death and suffering reigns?

Becoming a woman was a traumatic experience for me. Now the 'curse' has well and truly struck. I had to accept that I was a woman, with the traditions attached to living in a conservative Christian environment. I had to except my fate. I cried the whole day, my life was over. The snake became a personal symbol for my fears. The deep yearnings I felt I kept to myself and told no one. I was not like other children and I knew not to speak of what I could feel and knew that others could not.

I excepted Christianity and became a model Christian, excelling in bible study. But I was not exactly an orthodox Christian. Christians did not believe in a goddess, Christians did not remember they lived before. But I kept it absolutely hidden. I really tried to be a good Christian in every sense that included remaining a virgin. (Partly because I feared the subjugation that having children would mean.) But inside I was tormented and it reflected in my dreams. I became obsessed with death and longed for the oblivion I hoped it would bring, so that life would no longer torment me.

I was comfortable in the dark, since I no longer feared snakes lurking in the dark. Where I lived there was only the Golden Cobra and the Puff Adder to worry about and they kept to the mountain. Maybe I was comfortable with the dark because I am from the Dark Continent. I was exposed to death from an early age, through my father being a Doctor. I had no fear of death itself, since I was the cause of it.

My Christian phase came to an abrupt end when I went for our churches confirmation camp. I was seventeen. I went there expecting spiritual illumination, but was shocked to find that was the furthest thing from everyone else's mind. Smoking and drinking behind the dunes, couples disappearing into the night. I then saw the hypocrisy that existed and rejected Christianity there and then. I went to my confirmation dressed in white, just to get the certificate and to please my parents. But I never went to church again, except for funerals and weddings of others.

I began my journey to find alternative believes, that did not need fear to keep their believers in tow. To find the root of my fear. That which will fulfil my yearning.

Tibetan Buddhist teacher Tsultrim Alliane advises; " If we feed our demon anger and frustration it will continue to bother us; if we feed it love and compassion, it will evolve. By loving the demon, it melts. The tension is in the duality and pushing the demons, away makes more suffering…Eventually through love and compassion, the demons evolve and are liberated."

The snake that I feared most, was the Puff Adder, not because it was an aggressive snake, but rather sluggish, it relies on immobility to escape detection and thus is easily trodden on. It is very poisonous. One day I came across a Puff Adder, of all the places when I was walking in my own garden with my baby in my arms. I would not have been more surprised to see a lion in my garden. At that moment a cat arrived. The cat and the snake were transfixed in each other's gaze. I was afraid that the Puffy might strike the cat, so I called a neighbour to ask whether it was his cat. It wasn't but he arrived with a shotgun, ready to blow the snake to bits. I knew that Puff Adders were a protected specie, and I asked him to wait, I'll call some snake catchers. All the snake catchers were out for the day and someone recommended that I call the police. Here it is hard to get police to come to your house, unless you are holding someone at gunpoint. They just have to do the arresting. But that day, two police vans arrived, four cops. I could not believe my eyes, one lethal snake VS a cat, a man with a shotgun and four armed policemen.

The joke was that the Puff Adder, with one flick of the tail still got away. I still have to watch my every step in my own garden.

Kissinger was right, it is not testosterone, it is all about fear. It is with humour that we survive in Africa. There is a bumper sticker; "Africa is not for sissies" Anger cannot exist without muscle tension, and neither can fear. Just try it. Humour is a great way to help relax the tension.

That which is denied wrecks havoc.

" We believe that a perceptual experience must be subject to consensual evaluation to be genuine, Which means the source of the stimulus must be in the physical reality, else it must be a hallucination and a threat to our orientation. This distrust of the brains creativity and its ability to furnish spontaneous sensory perceptions sharply reduces the range of our intelligence and is one of the reasons we use only a portion of our brain capacity."
Joseph Chilion Pearce; Magical Child

I stood on the ledge, looking down into the volcanic lake. In the blackness of its depths, I knew was a monstrous serpent. I had to jump into the lake for my initiation. But I was very afraid. If I wanted to progress, I have to jump. So I jumped. From deep below I could feel the surges of something huge moving through the water. My fear grew as I could feel it coming closer, until it felt as if my heart would burst. I felt its immense power as it touched me and in that instant my fear dissolved into love. An all-consuming love, a love, I could never have imagined. I wrapped myself around its body and loved.

Fear is perceived to come from an external threat. To be merciful and gentle is considered a weakness, but only those who are secure in their own strength can truly be merciful.

I only came to terms with my fear of snakes, the day I had to rescue a snake out of a pit. It was raining heavily and I was just on my way in when I saw the snake struggling to get out. The pit was filling up fast with water. If I left it, it would drown. How am I going to get it out without getting bitten? My mortal enemy's life was in my hands. But I was not sure whether that particular snake was the poisonous one or not. I just could not walk away knowing I am leaving it to drown. Love dissolves fear. I found a very long stick. I let it curl around the stick and swiftly launched it out of the hole, then I ran just in case it strikes at me in its fear.

Once the pounding in my heart stopped, I felt joy. I embraced my fear. To love unconditionally is to be fearless.

Siegfried the Hero had no fear of dragons or another's sword. He longed to know what fear was. The following is from the moment he gazed upon Brunnhilde, after removing her helmet and breastplate.

"That is no man!
Magical rapture
Pierces my heart;
Fixed is my gaze,
Burning with terror;
I reel, my heart feels faint and fails!
On whom shall I call,
For aid imploring?
Mother! Mother!
Remember me!
How waken the maid,
Causing her eyelids to open?
Her eyelids to open?
What if her gaze strike me blind!
How shall I dare
To look on their light?
All rocks and sways
And swirls and revolves;
Uttermost longing
Burns and consumes me;
My hand on my heart,
Trembles and shakes!
What ails thee, coward?
Is this what fear means?
O mother! Mother!
Thy dauntless child!
A woman lying asleep
Has taught him what fear is at last!
How conquer my fear?
How brace my heart"
From Siegfried and the Twilight of the Gods; Richard Wagner.

Ironic that the very thing that dissolves fear, causes such fear in the hearts of so many. I want to live forever not because I fear but because I love.


In Love, In Sunshine and in Africa.


The African Symbol for Immortal
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- SAILLE WILLOW

#2 Lazarus Long

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Posted 01 March 2003 - 10:51 PM

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If you don't like yourself, you can't like other people.  

Your enemy is never a villain in his own eyes. Keep this in mind; it may offer a way to make him your friend. If not, you can kill him without hate -- and quickly.
   The Notebooks of Lazarus Long, by R.A. Heinlein


I don't advocate the killing and prefer even relocating the poisonous spider to destroying it, but sometimes it also comes down to defending one from another as when we must decide between the innocent species and the innocent child. We must also survive our lessons for them to be useful.

A fake fortuneteller can be tolerated. But an authentic soothsayer should be shot on sight. Cassandra did not get half the kicking around she deserved.
    The Notebooks of Lazarus Long, by R.A. Heinlein


Overcoming our fears is the greatest challenge we all face to transcendence and also it is the greatest obstacle to peace, globally and within the self.

When we start overcoming our fears a funny thing happens, we start becoming clairvoyant, in the classic sense of the word. Anyone can do this and it isn't just in the genes, but some people's genes may make them more able to push these boundaries of thought just as some people are more intelligent than others innately.

The problem is that most people never like being told the truth as opposed to what they want to hear, and then they blame the Truth Sayers for only saying the Truth.

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#3 Lazarus Long

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Posted 02 March 2003 - 04:45 PM

The Vista

The view from above looks below
Like seeing me in a mirror
I look through you
And doing so discover
I is a place no one can be
You are the realm beyond what I see
A vision of Clouds and Starry Sky
Everything up high
I look for you but discover me
We observe that from these depths our vision ascends forever
And from heaven's perspective ends beneath our feet.

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#4 Saille Willow

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Posted 16 March 2003 - 09:43 PM

Thank you Lazarus L for your insights and the beauty you bring.

I search for my enemy and find myself.
I look for myself and find you.

#5 bobdrake12

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Posted 16 March 2003 - 10:13 PM

Saille Willow:

To love unconditionally is to be fearless.


Lazarus Ling:

I don't advocate the killing and prefer even relocating the poisonous spider to destroying it, but sometimes it also comes down to defending one from another as when we must decide between the innocent species and the innocent child.


Lazarus Long,

Relocation is exactly what I do - when it comes to spiders.

Spiders for some reason wind up in my bathtub. I find them trapped there in the morning before I take my bath. I used to kill them with hot water and let them flush down the drain.

Now I put paper under them so they walk on it and then carry them to another room in the house for their freedom.

I have lost my fear of spiders now (spiders are the only living fear I ever had).

What made me change and start this relocating practice?

I really do not know but it is in my guts.

My wife has now started to do the same as I - when it comes to spiders.

Does my house have more spiders than it used to? No, there is a certain "carrying capacity" in my house which provides only a limited amount of food and prey for the spiders.

Now here is something interesting. I no longer get bitten at night by spiders when I sleep.

bob

Footnote:

I read Saille Willow's post after writing my post. I do not unconditionally love. I was raised on this planet as an athiest; thus, was not impacted by this planet's religions. If you read history, you find that there are earth human tyrants (from serial murderers to some political leaders) which you cannot afford to unconditionally love.

But when it comes to spiders, I have learned not to unconditionally fear. The fear results in hate. Thus, I no longer unconditionally hate spiders. I did not let go of this unconditional hate by reading any books or memorizing any religious sayings, I just did it because it became a part of me.

Edited by bobdrake12, 16 March 2003 - 11:25 PM.


#6 bobdrake12

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Posted 16 March 2003 - 10:50 PM

Kissinger was right, it is not testosterone, it is all about fear.


Fear many times is taught so it can be used to manipulate the "true believer". The "true believer" dare not read anything objectively that is contrary to what his manipulators preach.

Unconditional fear can manifest itself into unconditional hate. Please refer to the section on propaganda in the causes to war topic by clicking on the URL below:

http://www.imminst.o...=56&t=995&st=36

Unconditional hate coupled with the concept of "the means justifies the ends for the greater good" has led to much unnecessary suffering and death on this planet.

bob

Edited by bobdrake12, 16 March 2003 - 11:05 PM.


#7 bobdrake12

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Posted 16 March 2003 - 11:18 PM

Saille Willow:

as you attract what you fear


This appears to be a natural law.

bob

#8 Mind

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Posted 17 March 2003 - 01:18 AM

as you attract what you fear


This appears to be a natural law.


Do we attract death if we fear it? Or is there such a thing as a healthy fear?

I can see too much fear (read stress) bringing death on a bit earlier in life.

#9 bobdrake12

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Posted 17 March 2003 - 04:00 AM

I can see too much fear (read stress) bringing death on a bit earlier in life.


Mind,

I agree.

Quoting medical doctor Lorraine Day on this subject:

http://www.drday.com/crs.htm

Virtually ALL disease is caused by a combination of three main factors:

1) Malnutrition; we eat a LOT of calories, but not much nutrition. We eat a lot of flesh food and animal (dairy) products which are too high in fat and protein with no fiber and very few vitamins and minerals. We eat EMPTY calories, processed food that is high in fat, protein and sugar but very low in vitamins, minerals and enzymes.

2) Dehydration; The body is 75% water and the brain is 85% water. We lose 10 glasses of water from our body every day just by living (from perspiration, from breathing, our breath is moist, and from our body's need to take water from our cells to transfer into the stomach to make digestive juices to digest our food). Caffeine, found in coffee and caffeinated soft drinks, is a diuretic. It takes more water out of your system than comes in with the drink. Water is a necessary architectural component of every cell. If our cells are deficient in water, they CAN'T function properly. Therefore, our body AND our brain start to break down.

3) Stress: When we are stressed or angry, the stomach contracts and cannot digest our food properly, the intestinal peristalsis stops so we can't get rid of our waste material and instead we reabsorb these toxins, and our adrenal glands pour out harmful hormones into our body that suppress our immune system. In addition, stress is very dehydrating, thus depleting the body of its much needed water.

The bottom line is that there is NO "QUICK FIX!" We get sick one day at a time and that's the way we must get well, the slow hard way. It's the ONLY way to truly rebuild and repair our bodies.


bob

Edited by bobdrake12, 17 March 2003 - 04:00 AM.


#10 Lazarus Long

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Posted 17 March 2003 - 04:32 AM

Yes, people buy snake oil promises and beg for miracle cures prostrating themselves but what they are really doing is trying to convince themselves to find the "will" to overcome an illness and a way around the basic common sense rules and strategies that you have concisely outlined Bob. Will is an important element of confronting stress and creating it.

Will is an element that influences the immune system and will and joy comined with a common sense life style would provide so many of us a long and productive life now. But still they are not guarantees. For the environment is a toxin laced minefield already.

I am getting worried we are all in too much agreement. We need Occam and Caliban to come in and remind us all of the vast complexity and opportunity that we now have to find all kinds of new curative straegies. Of course even then I suspect much of the healing will still be just "one day at a time".

#11 Lazarus Long

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Posted 17 March 2003 - 04:49 AM

But when it comes to spiders, I have learned not to unconditionally fear. The fear results in hate. Thus, I no longer unconditionally hate spiders. I did not let go of this unconditional hate by reading any books or memorizing any religious sayings, I just did it because it became a part of me.


Another quality of love and hate as I pointed out is that we take on the qualities and characteristics of both. We become like what we hate and we become like what we love.

Unconditional fear does lead to unconditional hate, but is it also true that fearlessness leads to unconditional love?

Truly allowing ourselves to love may be the single greatest act of courage a human is capable of. For a mother it provides unparalleled strength in a crisis and for anyone it requires overcoming the insecurity of sharing one's "self" with another's. By becoming like what we love we work in the positive manner to become an ideal of our self, by becoming what we hate it is through fear that we confront the object of tht fear with similar behaviors and reflexive responses.

#12 bobdrake12

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Posted 17 March 2003 - 05:31 AM

Unconditional fear does lead to unconditional hate, but is it also true that fearlessness leads to unconditional love?


Lazarus Long,

For me, fearlessness allows for respect and love but not unconditional love although I must admit my love for my cats is close to unconditional. [B)]

I never understood the reason for living a life founded on the lack of respect or lack of love.

bob

#13 bobdrake12

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Posted 17 March 2003 - 05:49 AM

For a mother it provides unparalleled strength in a crisis and for anyone it requires overcoming the insecurity of sharing one's "self" with another's.


Lazarus Long,

I do not understand the "insecurity of sharing one's 'self' with another's". What is there to be insecure about?

When I was about three years old, I planted seven seeds of corn which was my garden. I felt the sun as it rose early in the morning and heard the birds sing and knew all would be well. I touched the small plants when they were like leaves of grass. I laid my hands upon them and could feel something coming back. I loved those plants as they grew to be taller than myself each yeilding seven ears of corn.

I had a little lizzard at that age. I took him everywhere I went. We bonded. It was my first bonding ever because I did not bond with either of my parents. One day, I left my lizzard for a moment and upon returning I found that my dog stepped upon him. This was my first experience with death and my first experience of loss of a loved one.

Today, my cat Malissa stayed by my side most of the day. It looks like the cancer growth has returned. I will get the tests by Tuesday. I will do my best to keep Malissa's life as pleasant as possible as I have from the beginning. Malissa was the youngest of my three cats, and I was her protector when she was small. She cam to me whenever the other two we too harsh on her. Only, now I am likely unable to provide the protection she needs.

After I took Malissa to the doctor this past Saturday, she clung to me in fear all the way home. I was not afraid, but this was the hospital where she had her first operation. In a way, she seemed to be telling me that she did not want another operation, but an operation is likely to extend her life.

The first person I deeply loved died of MS long ago. I miss her everyday. Sometimes this emptiness has been intense these past 40 years.

I do not understand the "insecurity" for the price of not experiencing love is far too great. To me, it is too great of a joy to share my life with those I love that I do not think of "insecurity" for I can still remember the days of my isolation within the womb and with no one to share.

bob

Edited by bobdrake12, 17 March 2003 - 06:04 AM.


#14 Lazarus Long

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Posted 17 March 2003 - 01:52 PM

I do not understand the "insecurity" for the price of not experiencing love is far too great. To me, it is too great of a joy to share my life with those I love that I do not think of "insecurity" for I can still remember the days of my isolation within the womb and with no one to share.


The problem here is that you and I feel the same about this. I have difficulty understanding the common reluctance as well. BUT I do observe the behavior and attitude is quite common, especially among our Western Cultures. We do not willingly teach our children (I am speaking culturally not personally) to "share" in this manner and instead teach them to focus almost myopically and definitely self indulgently upon a solipcistic affirmation and assertion of "individuality" of a type that is in contradiction of the idea of sharing.

I do not feel this inherent contradiction that I have been taught exists. The merging of self is not a threat to me, but I have learned that itis percieved as hostile to desire such rapport in many relationships out of a excess (and sometimes healthy) fear of the complexities and comoness of dominance/submissiveness as it confuses and compromises healthy relationships.

On this subject, as in the of so many choral arraingments we have found ourselves singing, you and I tend to be taking only slightly different harmonies off the same sheet of music. Nevertheless, while I also have difficulty understanding the behavior as it contradicts love in so many ways, I do however observe that this "mediocre" form of relationship has become more common than the healthier variant, the exception has become the rule and in fact only further drives a wedge between our gender consciousness.

Perhaps it reflects a power struggle between matriarchal and patriarchal interests or perhaps the division between these two balancng forces of spieces wide evolution is a reason we are facing a conflict. I wish I had a simple answer to this but saying I don't understand is not the same as saying it isn't so.

Before I forget let me add, I am very saddened to hear of the worsening condition effecting your family. You have my sympathy, I do know what it feels like.

Not long ago my dog was brutally killed when the children did not heed their responsibilites and neglected to seek him when they had noticed he had snuck out of the house, and instead continued to watch a movie they could have simply paused.

My wife and I were at our storage facility loading a truck for a cross country trip, so neither of us was present to establish priorities IN THAT MOMENT. He was a gentle soul and very gregarious so he went to see a neighborhood friend and was outside that house when a Pitbull roamed by and decided to set an example of pack leadership by brutalizing a weaker cousin.

Julie and I got home to an empty house and as we began our search for our famly Chico came home with the children and a neighbor. They handed him to me as a broken and bloodied being wrapped in agony, fear, and blood soaked towel.

I took him to the emergency room and we X-rayed him to find his neck, broken, lungs collapsed, all his ribs shattered, and numerous other lacerations and lesser traumas. But he was alive still and terrified, his will to live was strong and in great measure was enhanced by the love we share.

I could comfort him and calm him by simply touching and whispering to him during the procedures he had to endure just so that we could find out the extent of his injury. I was then forced to make a decision to kill my friend or risk torturing him with only theoretical procedures that weren't even immediately available. I had to weigh his continued agony and will to live against my selfishness of wanting my friend back. I chose to put him to sleep and held him while he died but I cannot think of this without becoming wracked with real physical pain.

The point of relating this is that I am a runner and he was my companion and running partner. Afterwards I couldn't even think of running for some time, I tried a few times but found myself emotionally distraught. I tried and the agony and reminder of loss was too much.

Then I found the transformative form to use and I "understand" that his spirit is running with me always. I don't care if this is "religious" in tone and you want to see "spirit" as another name for memory but it is through living love that my friend lives on and shares our living world a little bit longer.

As spring has come I find that I have to confront this unresolved grief in myself and also the guilt borne by my daughter who holds herself somewhat responsible for his demise. She adored him too.

I do not teach denial because I think the importance of learning from our mistakes is too important, but I also do not want my daughter to suffer and succumb to the overreactions to guilt that are also possible.

So I try to teach her how to focus on the love that allows us to cherish the memory of someone we love and not allow the agony of loss to deny us this shared love that even transcends the death of one of us.

This is very hard and I have suvived too many friends that I now hold only in my heart (and head) but it is very healthy in spite of the pain because it provides a way of growing beyond the limitations death imposes. Please extend a warm caress to your friend Malissa from me.

Those who understand will never allow any external force to take this comprehension away. It would be like Oedipus tearing out his eyes from just social pressure instead of that plus the persnoalized guilt he felt. What we have the power to do is allow our grief to destroy our ability to love through either pole of indulgence or ignoring (denial).

Those who find love and recognize its importance to us will never willingly go back to a state of being ignorant of such relationships but we have a jealous and possessive society that demands loyality first to the "self" and then the "state" and not one another.

#15 Lazarus Long

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Posted 17 March 2003 - 03:23 PM

"To love and win is the best thing. To love and lose, the next best."
--William M. Thackeray


The fear to be more specific is in part a childish fear of loss as it reflects our "selfisness". It is also a fear of pain as it too is shared.

It is also the fear of loss of power as one must share this sense of it with those one loves, and it is the fear of loss of freedom as it incorporates a higher sense of responsibility for an individual to bond and thus become interdependent.

I see this in others even as I have overcome such in myself but I also sense that there is more involved for basically it all seems a little absurd to me and I don't feel confident I understand what motive is so powerful that it would allow so many to willingly sacrifice that charceter in themselves that is so much more than just human in our ability to love.

The evolutionary biologists and psychologists may come to say that such awareness of thing called love is just a consequence of chemicals in our head, and thoughts put there for us to define ourselves and I ask back so what?

If love is only in our minds does that makes its existence any less then our own? Does that reduce its purpose and importance as a measure of what we truly value beyond mere material possession when it comes to defining what is "me" and the relationships of "I's"?

Love is a beacon and only a fool ignores such light, especially when facing doom within a treacherous dark. Why is the simplest thing so hard for most people?

"Better to light one candle than to curse the darkness".  
Milton


Why is it simpler to deny love than to face it for so many?

Why do we confuse love and possession for our children, our land, and our lover's?

"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once.

And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh."
--Nietzsche



#16 bobdrake12

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Posted 18 March 2003 - 01:30 AM

The problem here is that you and I feel the same about this. I have difficulty understanding the common reluctance as well. BUT I do observe the behavior and attitude is quite common, especially among our Western Cultures. We do not willingly teach our children (I am speaking culturally not personally) to "share" in this manner and instead teach them to focus almost myopically and definitely self indulgently upon a solipcistic affirmation and assertion of "individuality" of a type that is in contradiction of the idea of sharing.


Lazarus Long,

There is much about most of the cultures on this planet that I do not understand, and what you state is one of them.

Perhaps it reflects a power struggle between matriarchal and patriarchal interests or perhaps the division between these two balancng forces of spieces wide evolution is a reason we are facing a conflict. I wish I had a simple answer to this but saying I don't understand is not the same as saying it isn't so.


The symbols and rituals seem to replace the actual reality and commitment of love itself.

Before I forget let me add, I am very saddened to hear of the worsening condition effecting your family. You have my sympathy, I do know what it feels like.

Not long ago my dog was brutally killed when the children did not heed their responsibilites and neglected to seek him when they had noticed he had snuck out of the house, and instead continued to watch a movie they could have simply paused

.

I am very sorry to hear about your dog. You were faced with a very difficult decision that I probably will be facing in the near future.

Malissa is by me right now while I am on the computer. We have got the test results and the cancer (Vaccine-Associated Feline Sarcoma resulting from giving Malissa what we were told as "perfectly safe" vaccines) has returned. I stopped giving my cats vaccines when my fist cat (Snoball) got Vaccine-Associated Feline Sarcoma and died from it about four years ago. Unfortunately, I stopped too late.

The operation is extensive and painful. What is sad is that Malissa has just recovered from the first one and is now doing fine except for the aggressively growing tumor. It was just three months since her last operation. Normally it takes 6-12 months for these tumors to return.

I personally stopped taking vaccines about 20 years ago and was very skeptical about giving them to my cats. My wife believed the vet and I didn't challenge the vaccines although I personally didn't believe in them. I made a mistake that will now probably result in Malissa's death.

Then I found the transformative form to use and I "understand" that his spirit is running with me always. I don't care if this is "religious" in tone and you want to see "spirit" as another name for memory but it is through living love that my friend lives on and shares our living world a little bit longer.


Most religious people would not understand the reality of which you speak.

This is very hard and I have suvived too many friends that I now hold only in my heart (and head) but it is very healthy in spite of the pain because it provides a way of growing beyond the limitations death imposes. Please extend a warm caress to your friend Malissa from me.


Something happens during the process that you describe.

Thanks for caring about Malissa! She needs all the good thoughts she can get.

bob

Edited by bobdrake12, 18 March 2003 - 04:29 AM.


#17 bobdrake12

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Posted 18 March 2003 - 03:26 AM

Why is it simpler to deny love than to face it for so many?



http://www.ixpres.co.../browning1.html

Love Among the Ruins by Robert Browning

Posted Image

Where the quiet-coloured end of evening smiles,
Miles and miles
On the solitary pastures where our sheep
Half-asleep
Tinkle homeward thro' the twilight, stray or stop
As they crop--
Was the site once of a city great and gay,
(So they say)
Of our country's very capital, its prince
Ages since
Held his court in, gathered councils, wielding far
Peace or war.
Now the country does not even boast a tree,
As you see,
To distinguish slopes of verdure, certain rills
From the hills
Intersect and give a name to, (else they run
Into one)
Where the domed and daring palace shot its spires
Up like fires
O'er the hundred-gated circuit of a wall
Bounding all
Made of marble, men might march on nor be prest
Twelve abreast.
And such plenty and perfection, see, of grass
Never was!
Such a carpet as, this summer-time, o'er-spreads
And embeds
Every vestige of the city, guessed alone,
Stock or stone--
Where a multitude of men breathed joy and woe
Long ago;
Lust of glory pricked their hearts up, dread of shame
Struck them tame;
And that glory and that shame alike, the gold
Bought and sold.
Now--the single little turret that remains
On the plains,
By the caper overrooted, by the gourd
Overscored,
While the patching houseleek's head of blossom winks
Through the chinks--
Marks the basement whence a tower in ancient time
Sprang sublime,
And a burning ring, all round, the chariots traced
As they raced,
And the monarch and his minions and his dames
Viewed the games.
And I know, while thus the quiet-coloured eve
Smiles to leave
To their folding, all our many-tinkling fleece
In such peace,
And the slopes and rills in undistinguished grey
Melt away--
That a girl with eager eyes and yellow hair
Waits me there
In the turret whence the charioteers caught soul
For the goal,
When the king looked, where she looks now, breathless, dumb
Till I come.
But he looked upon the city, every side,
Far and wide,
All the mountains topped with temples, all the glades'
Colonnades,
All the causeys, bridges, aqueducts,--and then
All the men!
When I do come, she will speak not, she will stand,
Either hand
On my shoulder, give her eyes the first embrace
Of my face,
Ere we rush, ere we extinguish sight and speech
Each on each.
In one year they sent a million fighters forth
South and North,
And they built their gods a brazen pillar high
As the sky
Yet reserved a thousand chariots in full force--
Gold, of course.
O heart! oh blood that freezes, blood that burns!
Earth's returns
For whole centuries of folly, noise and sin!
Shut them in,
With their triumphs and their glories and the rest!
Love is best.

Edited by bobdrake12, 18 March 2003 - 03:42 AM.


#18 bobdrake12

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Posted 18 March 2003 - 04:39 AM

Christians did not remember they lived before. But I kept it absolutely hidden.


Saille Willow,

The concept of pre-existence was taught at Notre Dame based on the Scriptures.

It makes perfect sense to me.

My Christian phase came to an abrupt end when I went for our churches confirmation camp. I was seventeen. I went there expecting spiritual illumination, but was shocked to find that was the furthest thing from everyone else's mind. Smoking and drinking behind the dunes, couples disappearing into the night. I then saw the hypocrisy that existed and rejected Christianity there and then. I went to my confirmation dressed in white, just to get the certificate and to please my parents. But I never went to church again, except for funerals and weddings of others.


Far too many do not live what they say are their convictions.

Posted Image

Do you remember Ma'at?

bob

Edited by bobdrake12, 18 March 2003 - 04:56 AM.


#19 Saille Willow

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Posted 18 March 2003 - 08:22 PM

Mesdjer's song

The young lover's love-song
Is fever of waing and sighs,
Desire of embrace
Possession's triumph:
Communion of bodies, he and she.

The love song of old age
Evokes memories and yearning,
Impotence and disenchantment.

But I sing of Love
Without lies or allurement,
Which knows in each season
Passion and Mastery,
Love, appeal and answer
All in itself;
The Love which does not split in twain.
O Nature, everywhere you divide!
Your love is conflict and death.

I sing of the other Love,
Which seeks neither him nor her'
Which gives without demanding
Any return

Thus He owns within him
His universe,
She no longer separates;
She is within Him; his universe
Is filled with Her!

And like a Sun
That feeds on his own warmth,
Thus He radiates beyond the object,
And his own substance
Becomes light and passion.

From Her-Bak, Isha Schaller de Lubcz

#20 Saille Willow

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Posted 18 March 2003 - 08:35 PM

Lazarus Long

My heart goes out to you for your loss.

At last the aspect of relationships has been ventured into. Relationships forms the basis of our life, whatever form it takes.It seems tht the 'Art' of relationships is being lost. There seem to be a decline in the understanding of what relationship is. The fear of love, yet the madness that comes from the lack of it. The fear of loss of freedom which might occur in the union. The isolation of individuals, instead of growing openess.

The union in love, the experience of love, occurs not through the loss of individuality, but through a mutual enfolding of the most personal inwardness of each.

"Love alone is capable of uniting living beings in such a way as to complete them by what is deepest in themselves."
Teilhardt de Chardin

#21 Saille Willow

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Posted 18 March 2003 - 08:56 PM

bobdrake

Ma'at

Veil upon veil
crystal gateways
Source and fulfilment of the Great divine Mother
The presence of the beginning
and the end.
In all times and all worlds
Cosmic consciousness
Universal ideation
Essential Wisdom
Transcending all myth
The key to the reason of live.

I remember Ma'at

#22 bobdrake12

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Posted 19 March 2003 - 02:05 AM

The presence of the beginning
and the end.
In all times and all worlds
Cosmic consciousness
Universal ideation
Essential Wisdom
Transcending all myth
The key to the reason of life.


Posted Image

Saille Willow,

In the stillness I can hear the voice.
A light is shown in front of my eyes.
Everywhere I turn, it is there...
The voice and the light.

There is nothing to fear.
All I need to do is to listen...
For the small voice in the stillness...
So the light will take away the darkness.

bob

Edited by bobdrake12, 19 March 2003 - 02:08 AM.


#23 Saille Willow

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Posted 21 March 2003 - 08:48 AM

bob

Then it was quiet
Awareness in a black night
yet not opaque darkness
nor without light
internal luminousity
vastness
intensely swirling light
engulf
in glowing sound
a voice
neither without
nor within
It is




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