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The Muslims' Take-Over


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#181 john_shade

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Posted 31 August 2006 - 08:24 AM

The Hebrew bible cheerfully condones the genocide of the Canaanites for example. A society modeled on the book of Leviticus, which sets out Gods laws for the hebrew people would in many ways resemble Taliban controlled Afghanistan.

Elsewhere on these boards I have defended the bible on literary and culture-historical grounds and stated that the notion of a benevolent creator god gives comfort to unthinking people that I wouldnt want to take away from them.

However attempting to use it as a literal blueprint for building a society is a horrific prospect.

Israel does not resemble Saudi Arabia this because the Jewish people long since stopped depending on the ACTUAL CONTENT of their holy book for moral or legal guidance. They merely pay it lip service.

Excellent post.

The comedian Lewis Black expressed outrage (yes, more outrage from Louis Black) in a recent show that people take the Old Testament as literal history. Paraphrased, he said that "that shit" with the hateful God was intended to keep Jews in line while they were running around lost in the desert. Even Jewish people don't believe in that stuff, and as you say, they're all the better for it.

#182 mikelorrey

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 07:09 PM

You see the british as some kind of oppressors, they are not. Every opinion poll held to date shows the majority of NI residents want to remain a part of the UK. Once that changes, there will be a referendum and it will be decided democratically. Let me ask you this, if the British are oppressing the Irish, how come they have not took up arms and started killing "catholics" as you are so fond of calling nationalists and republicans?
This situation is more complex than you are either willing or capable of understanding. Tell your right to bear arms rubbish to the victims of the Omagh bombing or the Shankill massacre. You will get a much more venomous answer than mine, I can tell you that in advance.

Moderators: I suggest this thread be closed. Not only is MikeLorrey openly supporting and advocating terrorism, he is doing so as a result of ignorance and disinformation. The fact that he would presume to tell a resident of this country how his own country is doing is besides the matter, he is openly in support of illegal activity and that is surely not part of imminst's mission.


A majority of NI residents are protestant, so of course they are going to want to remain with Britain (though this may change with Irelands spectacular economic growth and Britains dismal economy and creeping socialism).

I look at the ENGLISH as oppressors, as they forcibly transported my own Scottish ancestors to Nova Scotia and stole our lands in the Highlands (Clan Gordon). I am not openly supporting or advocating terrorism, so you are now a liar on that score as well. As I was raised a Catholic as well, I know how we've been treated by the English, by Protestant Orangemen, as well as by protestants here in the US. Your a bunch of bigoted murderous bullies when nobody is looking. The history of the Clan Gordon is a history of the violent terroristic persecution of the Catholic Gordons by the English protestants and their weasel quislings in southern Scotland. Its a story of murder, genocide, forced conversions, mass confiscations, rape, robbery, and exile, all perpetrated by the Protestants, who, as far back as Queen Anne, warned her not to allow a man such as Earl Gordon, Cock of the North, to remain in power.

V is for Vendetta, prat.

#183 Centurion

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 11:29 AM

Your a bunch of bigoted murderous bullies when nobody is looking


You('re)? I'm not an orangemen

For the final time, orangemen do not kill, the orangemen do not bear arms. If you refuse to learn, I refuse to debate your ignorance.

Scotland? Irrelevant, I was discussing Northern Ireland. You're applying your distaste for the protestants in Scotland to the protestants in NI. P is for prejudice.

V is for Vendetta, prat.


As for prat, I'm no prat, just much better informed than you are. If you cannot accept this, thats your loss.

You blame the distant ancestors of those from the plantation for the crimes of their ancestors, the protestants who live in Northern Ireland and Scotland today are NOT their ancestors. It seems you suffer from the general American trend to overidentify with your cultural roots. In America it's cool to have an alternative ancestry such as irish or scottish, so you adopt hatred for your ancestors' enemies as a way of bolstering your scottish heritage.

I'm Irish enough as I am without hyperbole, to me the truth is more important than hate.

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#184 Lazarus Long

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 01:10 PM

Interesting; Centurion and Mikelorry you two exemplify what I consider one of the biggest obstacles to the advancement of not only longevity tech but true social evolution. Not because of how articulately (though dangerously close to ad hominem) you have both expressed your positions but because of your collective demonstration for how difficult it is to reconcile such deep seated disputes, even between modern and reasonably individuals. How even within integrated society these social divisions remain latent and dangerous.

Reading both of you can help inform others of the underlying concerns but taking sides will only contribute to the problem and not the solutions. The real solution is in abandoning the past in favor of a common goal for a fundamentally different social norm and I doubt most people are capable of divorcing their traditions no matter how they wear a cloak of modernity.

The conflict you are describing is essentially a vestigial tribal one that has metastasized into first a multigenerational religious and then secular one.

Tragically it is only one of all too many that we see manifesting themselves around the world and consider this; you are both articulate, intelligent and informed yet you both fall into traditional sides of the conflict. If those like yourselves that have observably greater mental capacity to see and seek higher goals fall prey to this tendency then why should we expect the majority of humanity to not do worse?

To build the future we must abandon the past. This doesn't mean we should forget history but it does mean to forgive our ancestors their excess and not bring the past into the present thus perpetuating it into the future. It is by this method we can ameliorate the "sins of the father" rather than visiting them upon the sons.

Before the conversation between you two deteriorates further I would ask you both instead to offer your perspectives on a path to true reconciliation.

#185 Centurion

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 02:34 PM

I couldn't agree more Laz. I haven't been defending the actions of any terrorist group though, nor have I taken any particular side (hence the mixed flag in my signature). I am more opposed to misinformation than anything else. To say all protestants or all orangemen kill people is wrong. To say all nationalits or all catholics kill people is also wrong. To say the IRA / UVF / UDA / whatever armed organisation from either side kill people is right, but to say they have a right to do so is wrong.

I was confronted by MikeLorrey who presented me a black and white one sided story - protestants and the english oppress the irish, the irish therefore have a right to bomb and murder.

I was merely trying to add a bit more depth to the picture by hilighting some of the complexities, every time I did however I was greeted with more one sided and simplistic views. I'm not on the side of either nationalist or unionist, this kind of tribal politics has torn my country apart, but I do stand against outright bias when I can, whoever its toward.

You appear to be under the impression that MikeLorrey debates this issue with the same standing that I do. MikeLorrey isn't from Northern Ireland and his only connection to this issue is some relation he has to the scots across the water. His connection with this issue is loose at best, I however see, feel and experience the complexities of this situation, in all its social and interpersonal complexity on a daily basis as part of my life. I drink with protestants and catholics, I work with them, I live with them and I study with them. I am waving the flag of non-attachment here, but MikeLorrey is having none of it. He's saying IRA all the way, death to all Brits!

He is exactly what Bono was talking about in Chicago. There are so many "irish-americans" who think because their great great grandmother's dog was irish, they have some kind of greater cognitive authority on the issue of Irish politics even though most don't have a clue at all. Ireland for dummys is about the height of it! Here's what Bono would have to say to the likes of him, and I do say I, as a fellow irishman have to agree with him.

Bono: Now lemme tell you somethin'. I've had enough of Irish Americans who haven't been back to their country in twenty or thirty years come up to me and talk about the resistence, the revolution back home. And the glory of the revolution, and the glory of dyin' for the revolution. F*** the revolution! They don't talk about the glory of killing for the revolution. What's the glory in takin' a man from his bed and gunnin' him down in front of his wife and his children? Where's the glory in that? Where's the glory in bombing a Rememberance Day parade of old-aged pensioners, their medals taken out and polished up for the day. Where's the glory in that? To leave them dyin', or crippled for life, or dead, under the rubble of a revolution that the majority of the people of my country don't want. Sing no more!


Bono: Am I bugging you? I don't mean to bug ya.


The rose tinted glory filled view he has of the irish fighting their opression is evidence of Mike's ignorance, ignorance which would not exist if he had lived here and seen what had happened. Even those who support these terrible terrorist campaigns have the reverence and decency not to glorify it so.

I already apologised to MikeLorrey, and outstretched a hand in friendship. His next post proceeded to call me a prat. My conscience is clear, I've done my best.
I'm through trying to educate him for some people ignorant beliefs are comfortable and that seems to be the case with Mike.

Laz, I'm not an entrenched Bigot, my previous posts prove that, I'm merely trying to help Mike consider the middle ground when all he's interested in is a sensationalist "viva la revolution!" viewpoint which is an insult to this country's troubles. I have *verged* on ad hominem, but if you had an older brother who was killed on 9/11, and someone told you he recognised the muslim extremist's right to kill him, and that he died because he oppressed the muslim faith, I would wager you might get a little ad hominem yourself.
I have encountered nothing but ignorant one sided pro terrorist sensationalism from MikeLorrey, and in return for attempting to show him a little balance, you tar me with the same dirty brush?

Edited by centurion, 08 September 2006 - 08:10 AM.


#186 Centurion

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 02:37 PM

In my opinion, as someone who has lived here all my life, it will take at least another two generations to sort out Northern Ireland's problems. The baby boomer generation are still embittered by the vicious atrocities of the troubles and have passed it on to their children.

Our generation however are for the most part *more* forward looking. I have seen this in my peers. Perhaps less of our generation will pass on hate to their children. The deep wounds of northern ireland will take time and cautious, tentative steps forward such as power sharing.

The fatal flaw of every attempt to date is in not giving the wound time enough to heal. Politicians have often tried to force peace onto NI. Peace will come with time, through the efforts of nontribal parties such as the SDLP.

#187 mikelorrey

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Posted 12 September 2006 - 04:41 AM

Centurion, where do you think the Orangemen came from? They were anglicised Scottish protestants, transported to colonise northern Ireland. They were not native Irish.

BTW: You didn't 'outstretch a hand in friendship'. You lied, claiming I supported terrorism, and demanded the thread be shut down so you would have the last word. That isn't stretching out a hand.

Supporting the right to keep and bear arms isn't advocating terrorism, else 76% of Americans are terrorists for owning firearms. Your hyperbole here is highly offensive. Millions here have fought and died to protect our rights, the 2nd amendment among them. That you are merely a parrot for the British nanny state policy of victim disarmament, though, is indicative.

Marty Layman-Mendonca, American tourist, lies permanently handicapped in an Inverness hospital, a victim of a crazed repeat offender, Colin Ross, all because of the policies of the British government which disarm law abiding citizens and panders to and coddles serial criminals. Her attacker was less than a month out of prison, having served only 2 of a 3 year sentence for a previous attack on a German tourist, having had a prior record for stalking and threatening his pshrink and a woman in his community.

#188 Centurion

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Posted 12 September 2006 - 09:29 AM

Centurion, where do you think the Orangemen came from? They were anglicised Scottish protestants, transported to colonise northern Ireland. They were not native Irish.

BTW: You didn't 'outstretch a hand in friendship'. You lied, claiming I supported terrorism, and demanded the thread be shut down so you would have the last word. That isn't stretching out a hand.

Supporting the right to keep and bear arms isn't advocating terrorism, else 76% of Americans are terrorists for owning firearms. Your hyperbole here is highly offensive. Millions here have fought and died to protect our rights, the 2nd amendment among them. That you are merely a parrot for the British nanny state policy of victim disarmament, though, is indicative.

Marty Layman-Mendonca, American tourist, lies permanently handicapped in an Inverness hospital, a victim of a crazed repeat offender, Colin Ross, all because of the policies of the British government which disarm law abiding citizens and panders to and coddles serial criminals. Her attacker was less than a month out of prison, having served only 2 of a 3 year sentence for a previous attack on a German tourist, having had a prior record for stalking and threatening his pshrink and a woman in his community.


You don't listen, or learn, do you.
First off, I did apologise, something I wont do again.

Secondly, the right to bear arms is an American right, made in an American constitution for American reasons. The uncontrollable gun crime in the USA could be for any number of reasons, but this would certainly be a factor.
You wouldnt say you support what happened on 9/11, this is no different. The difference between American bearing arms and the IRA bearing arms are the IRA intend to use them to kill and for no other purpose. Many Americans keep them for self defense. You still talk in terms of oppression, your notions are outdated. The British do not and cannot oppress the irish. You continue to ignore my every counter to your unfounded trash, like how the majority of Ireland want to remain a part of the UK and that a referendum will be held when this is not the case.
Also remember that the Irish republic do not wish for reintegration. Neither do they support or condone the IRA's efforts. Due to this there was an IRA attempt to infiltrate the Dail! Are you telling me the British government also oppress the Irish government, a fellow European member state? This starts to sound like conspiracy theory.
You should learn that the laws of the US are not the same as those here in the UK and Ireland.


Orangemen not native irish? How exactly does that matter in this day and age? Depends how you define native irish, with viking settlement etc. Additionally, orangemen != protestants / unionists! Read and learn from my previous posts, don't parrot the same thing over and over again.
Because they're native do they not have the right to live here? America had better rid itself of all non native-americans then I suppose. You are just the man to lead that revolution. I'll even mail you a beret.

Your example on the disarming? The reason why NI gun laws are strict is simple, people here kill each other and there is a climate of violence. Look at the 30 year troubles. Not everyone shares America's definition of freedom. Freedom to kill another isn't something Europe wants, but I won't be drawn into a philosophical debate.

Frankly I'm tired of Americans who support terrorism telling me what they've fought for and what they've suffered. It was totally legal for the IRA to raise funds in America up until 9/11, naive individuals like yourself with an archaic view of ireland which is many years out of date paid for the bullets and bombs which tore this country apart. Your emotive argument falls on this basis.

Are you going to keep barking the same tired trash, or are you going to read and learn something?
I have lived here all my life, I know what happens here, you do not live here and see this issue with such black and white simplicity that it is insulting.

The vast majority of ireland, who frankly are in a better position to debate this issue than you, disagree with you. You keep stating the same tired rubbish no matter how many times you're told that its false. This quickly grows tiresome.

Edited by centurion, 12 September 2006 - 06:04 PM.


#189 mikelorrey

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 08:05 AM

Centurion, where do you think the Orangemen came from? They were anglicised Scottish protestants, transported to colonise northern Ireland. They were not native Irish.

BTW: You didn't 'outstretch a hand in friendship'. You lied, claiming I supported terrorism, and demanded the thread be shut down so you would have the last word. That isn't stretching out a hand.

Supporting the right to keep and bear arms isn't advocating terrorism, else 76% of Americans are terrorists for owning firearms. Your hyperbole here is highly offensive. Millions here have fought and died to protect our rights, the 2nd amendment among them. That you are merely a parrot for the British nanny state policy of victim disarmament, though, is indicative.

Marty Layman-Mendonca, American tourist, lies permanently handicapped in an Inverness hospital, a victim of a crazed repeat offender, Colin Ross, all because of the policies of the British government which disarm law abiding citizens and panders to and coddles serial criminals. Her attacker was less than a month out of prison, having served only 2 of a 3 year sentence for a previous attack on a German tourist, having had a prior record for stalking and threatening his pshrink and a woman in his community.


You don't listen, or learn, do you.
First off, I did apologise, something I wont do again.

Secondly, the right to bear arms is an American right, made in an American constitution for American reasons. The uncontrollable gun crime in the USA could be for any number of reasons, but this would certainly be a factor.


Actually, our 2nd amendment merely enumerated a British common law right which King George had repeatedly violated. The rights in amendments 1-8 enumerate common law British rights that the King had most frequently violated in the Colonies. The rest were enshrined in the 9th amendment.

The cause of crime in America, if you cared to actually know what the hell you were talking about (i.e. similar to your blatant ignorance RE the origins of our Constitutional rights) is found in the fact that almost all the crime occurs in cities and states that have the most restrictive gun laws. Here in New Hampshire, our crime rates are lower significantly than, say, Britain.

You wouldnt say you support what happened on 9/11, this is no different. The difference between American bearing arms and the IRA bearing arms are the IRA intend to use them to kill and for no other purpose. Many Americans keep them for self defense. You still talk in terms of oppression, your notions are outdated. The British do not and cannot oppress the irish. You continue to ignore my every counter to your unfounded trash, like how the majority of Ireland want to remain a part of the UK and that a referendum will be held when this is not the case.


Really, the Irish Catholics are not repressed? When was the last time a Catholic political party was allowed in NI government?

Also remember that the Irish republic do not wish for reintegration. Neither do they support or condone the IRA's efforts. Due to this there was an IRA attempt to infiltrate the Dail! Are you telling me the British government also oppress the Irish government, a fellow European member state? This starts to sound like conspiracy theory.
You should learn that the laws of the US are not the same as those here in the UK and Ireland.


Thank goodness the laws here are not like the UK. Your country is drowning in its own socialistic orwellian swill. The Irish Republic doesn't want reunification so long as the Unionists remain in NI.

Orangemen not native irish? How exactly does that matter in this day and age? Depends how you define native irish, with viking settlement etc. Additionally, orangemen != protestants / unionists! Read and learn from my previous posts, don't parrot the same thing over and over again.
Because they're native do they not have the right to live here? America had better rid itself of all non native-americans then I suppose. You are just the man to lead that revolution. I'll even mail you a beret.


Now you are changing the subject. You claimed they were native. The whole reason they are called "Orangemen" is because they were followers of the House of Hanover in de-catholicising Scotland and Ireland.

Your example on the disarming? The reason why NI gun laws are strict is simple, people here kill each other and there is a climate of violence. Look at the 30 year troubles. Not everyone shares America's definition of freedom. Freedom to kill another isn't something Europe wants, but I won't be drawn into a philosophical debate.


Britain has much higher violent crime rates than the US, and the cops there fudge the numbers, such that if a bloke kills four people in one event, its classified as one murder in British crime stats. They downplay murders into manslaughters, manslaughters into homicides. They let murderers back onto the streets and incarcerate normal people who defend their lives and property.

Meanwhile, Washington DC and other high crime areas, which have higher death rates than NI (and higher death rates than our troops in Iraq, btw), have the most restrictive gun laws in the country.

Here in New Hampshire, we have the most free gun laws and the lowest crime rates. I don't need any permit to walk down the street with any pistol, rifle, or machine gun in my hands or on my hip.

Frankly I'm tired of Americans who support terrorism telling me what they've fought for and what they've suffered. It was totally legal for the IRA to raise funds in America up until 9/11, naive individuals like yourself with an archaic view of ireland which is many years out of date paid for the bullets and bombs which tore this country apart. Your emotive argument falls on this basis.


And your country allowed Hezbollah to raise funds in Britain up until recently... and it was only recently your government deported the one eyed Sheik. The 9-11 hijackers all gained asylum and shelter in European welfare systems and universities, due to your archaic view of the muslim world.

Are you going to keep barking the same tired trash, or are you going to read and learn something?
I have lived here all my life, I know what happens here, you do not live here and see this issue with such black and white simplicity that it is insulting.

The vast majority of ireland, who frankly are in a better position to debate this issue than you, disagree with you. You keep stating the same tired rubbish no matter how many times you're told that its false. This quickly grows tiresome.


As Twain once said, "It ain't what people don't know thats the problem, its what they know, that ain't so."

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#190 Centurion

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 09:22 AM

Actually, our 2nd amendment merely enumerated a British common law right which King George had repeatedly violated. The rights in amendments 1-8 enumerate common law British rights that the King had most frequently violated in the Colonies. The rest were enshrined in the 9th amendment.

The cause of crime in America, if you cared to actually know what the hell you were talking about (i.e. similar to your blatant ignorance RE the origins of our Constitutional rights) is found in the fact that almost all the crime occurs in cities and states that have the most restrictive gun laws. Here in New Hampshire, our crime rates are lower significantly than, say, Britain.


I don't claim to know everything about American law, but im not nearly as ignorant of it as you are of the situation in Ireland. as for the crime rates, show me specific, verifiable proof where the data collection methods are comparable. No apples and oranges please. Try to remember that you could know the American constitution and its origins back to front and inside out and it still doesn't make you an expert on the matter of debate here, Irish politics. My point was that the American constitution is the American Constitution and doesnt apply to Northern Ireland. My point and the fact of the matter is that there is no right to bear arms in Northern Ireland


Really, the Irish Catholics are not repressed? When was the last time a Catholic political party was allowed in NI government?


Martin McGuinness was NI head of education during the last executive power sharing at stormont. Entire parties dont represent NI for one reason, rule would be one sided. Members of Sinn Feinn governed NI as part of this executive.

http://en.wikipedia....r_for_Education

"Sinn Féin now has 24 members of the Northern Ireland Assembly (out of 108), five Westminster MPs (out of 18 from Northern Ireland) and five Republic of Ireland TDs (out of 166). This increase is widely perceived as support for the IRA ceasefire and some commentators maintain this support would decrease if the IRA returned to violence (although this did not happen during the brief resumption that occurred between the 1994 and 1997 ceasefires)." Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia....popular_support)

Thank goodness the laws here are not like the UK. Your country is drowning in its own socialistic orwellian swill. The Irish Republic doesn't want reunification so long as the Unionists remain in NI.


Conjecture. No proof, raw opinion.

Now you are changing the subject. You claimed they were native. The whole reason they are called "Orangemen" is because they were followers of the House of Hanover in de-catholicising Scotland and Ireland.


I never claimed they were native. Though I fail to see the relevance. Explain the relevance for me and why it is important. I don't see that it is. They live in this country now, they don't need to be native to have rights.

Britain has much higher violent crime rates than the US, and the cops there fudge the numbers, such that if a bloke kills four people in one event, its classified as one murder in British crime stats. They downplay murders into manslaughters, manslaughters into homicides. They let murderers back onto the streets and incarcerate normal people who defend their lives and property.

Meanwhile, Washington DC and other high crime areas, which have higher death rates than NI (and higher death rates than our troops in Iraq, btw), have the most restrictive gun laws in the country.

Here in New Hampshire, we have the most free gun laws and the lowest crime rates. I don't need any permit to walk down the street with any pistol, rifle, or machine gun in my hands or on my hip.


Prove this with relevant verifiable figures. Ensure that the definition of gun crime or violent crime are the same between sources. Remember governments change measurement methods to alter figures. Give me proof here not your opinion. Remember violent crime != gun crime. I know of British studies where violent crime is very loosely defined. In one instance a girl having her backpack stolen and tossed around was classed as violent. Before you throw apples and oranges at me, ensure you have studies where definitions are comparable.

I recognise that not everything can be proven with sources, but in this case you're claiming figures so let's see them.

And your country allowed Hezbollah to raise funds in Britain up until recently... and it was only recently your government deported the one eyed Sheik. The 9-11 hijackers all gained asylum and shelter in European welfare systems and universities, due to your archaic view of the muslim world.


Two wrongs don't make a right. Also I'm not in open support of Hezbollah. I have demonstrated no archaic view of the muslim world and my view on the muslim world is not nearly as ignorant and misinformed of your view of Ireland. Incidentally, from Wikipedia:

"The IRA has also received weapons and logistical support from Irish Americans, in the USA especially the NORAID group.(See also) Apart from the Libyan aid, this has been the main source of overseas IRA support. U.S. support has been weakened by the War against Terrorism, and the fallout from the events of the 11 September 2001. US Political backing for Sinn Féin was badly damaged by the Robert McCartney killing in late 2004. McCartney, a Catholic, was killed by IRA members in a pub brawl. Other IRA members destroyed all the forensic evidence on the scene and intimidated the witnesses. The McCartney family have publicly denounced the IRA." (Wikipedia)

http://en.wikipedia....d_organisations

I saw no mention on Wikipedia's entry on Hezbollah of significant UK backing of the organisation. Although this is entirely offtopic because it is Ireland which we are discussing here. You're moving the goalposts to try to find an argument you can win because you're beginning to see how absurd your supporting the IRA actually is.

As Twain once said, "It ain't what people don't know thats the problem, its what they know, that ain't so."


Quote some Dickens while you're at it. It still doesn't make your sensationalist rubbish any more true. Besides you're in no position to imply I am misinformed. You still refuse to acknowledge the dictinction between Catholics and Nationalists and Between Protestants and Unionists, yet it is so clear cut and simple a distinction.

Edited by centurion, 14 September 2006 - 03:08 PM.





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