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Is Body Building and Longevity Compatible?

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#1 Sith

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 10:21 PM


Hello everyone, 

 

I wanted to bring up the question for your scrutiny on whether body building; not competitive but merely to look good and feel good, is compatible with the life extension centered person.

 

I am a firm believer in the low-protein, low methionine lifestyle. It is the only way to live to extend maximum lifespan which is supported by scientific literature. 

 

So could this be combined with body building? Does a low protein lifestyle build muscle? Thanks.  :)

 

 

 

 



#2 aconita

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 11:48 PM

I wanted to bring up the question for your scrutiny on whether body building; not competitive but merely to look good and feel good, is compatible with the life extension centered person.

 

Yes, it is.

 

I am a firm believer in the low-protein, low methionine lifestyle. It is the only way to live to extend maximum lifespan which is supported by scientific literature.

 

In fruit flies and worms it is.

 

So could this be combined with body building? Does a low protein lifestyle build muscle?

 

No, low protein or calories restriction in general at the extent needed to attempt to replicate what kind of works for animals isn't compatible with building significant amounts of muscles, a training lifestyle or even an active one, for that matter.

 

Even those animal studies are questionable since if one wants to replicate them it has to be done fully, not just the part one wishes...

 

If you want to do that stay inside your room all life long at a set constant temperature, be fed by someone else always the same food in accurately measured amounts, no natural light, no girlfriend, no sex, no TV, no friends, no beer, no work, no school, no computer, no iphone, no holidays, no external stimuly apart from whom comes to dump the food in your room, etc...in short nothing of nothing, just you and the 4 walls around you, nothing to do, nothing to aim for....this ALL your life since you are born.

 

Than maybe, and I say maybe, compared to live the same life but with more proteins or calories, you'll live a few years longer...I suspect it is just because you will lack the energy to commit suicide but that is just my speculation. 


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#3 Sith

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Posted 31 May 2017 - 06:10 PM

 

I wanted to bring up the question for your scrutiny on whether body building; not competitive but merely to look good and feel good, is compatible with the life extension centered person.

 

Yes, it is.

 

I am a firm believer in the low-protein, low methionine lifestyle. It is the only way to live to extend maximum lifespan which is supported by scientific literature.

 

In fruit flies and worms it is.

 

So could this be combined with body building? Does a low protein lifestyle build muscle?

 

No, low protein or calories restriction in general at the extent needed to attempt to replicate what kind of works for animals isn't compatible with building significant amounts of muscles, a training lifestyle or even an active one, for that matter.

 

Even those animal studies are questionable since if one wants to replicate them it has to be done fully, not just the part one wishes...

 

If you want to do that stay inside your room all life long at a set constant temperature, be fed by someone else always the same food in accurately measured amounts, no natural light, no girlfriend, no sex, no TV, no friends, no beer, no work, no school, no computer, no iphone, no holidays, no external stimuly apart from whom comes to dump the food in your room, etc...in short nothing of nothing, just you and the 4 walls around you, nothing to do, nothing to aim for....this ALL your life since you are born.

 

Than maybe, and I say maybe, compared to live the same life but with more proteins or calories, you'll live a few years longer...I suspect it is just because you will lack the energy to commit suicide but that is just my speculation. 

 

 

Wow, I must say that is quite thought-provoking, but I must say, following this lifestyle, I have been healthier and fitter than I have ever been. I do not follow any form of calorie restriction; apart from calorie restriction mimetics.

 

 

Hypothetical scenario: I am eating 0.7g of protein per Kg, consuming healthy fats and carbs alongside this. Making my calories up to maintenance or ever so slightly over. Would I put on lean mass over time? I have heard of various strength trainers taking that much protein.



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#4 aconita

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Posted 31 May 2017 - 09:48 PM

I am not saying one can't be healthy or fit on a very low protein diet, I say that the amount of workload that can be imposed is limited as hypertrophy/strength reaching potentials are.

 

There is an open debate about how much protein/kg are optimal for hypertrophy/strength, what it seems to emerge by research is that proteins amount need is less than sometimes thought but it has its role for advanced athletes in order to OPTIMIZE results, in other words if one aims to reach is full potential likely up to 3g/kg proteins/day are best.

 

In the other end a moderate protein intake isn't likely to lead to dramatically inferior results, provided enough calories are supplied.

 

As often is the case 90% is obtainable just being reasonable, that last 10% to reach 100% is where all the tricks of the trade need to be employed.

 

If you are happy reaching 90% of your potential 0,7g/kg is plenty (which in my book isn't low but moderate since equals to about 300g/day of meat for an 80kg individual).

 

Those percentages are just examples, take them with a grain of salt, it is just to give you the idea of how it works, not to state exact numbers.

 

If your calories are in slight surplus you should be able to gain lean mass (along some fat) over time, eventually the issue could be when you'll decide to lean up, shedding the fat while preserving the gained lean mass involves lowering carbs while keeping or even increasing proteins, it might get a bit tricky, not everybody responds the same, some trials and errors might be necessary but overall I'll say keeping things reasonable will do, it is when one goes extreme that it can get out of hands (for example real low proteins or proteins of too low biological value, etc...).  



#5 ekaitz

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 02:41 PM

If you are happy reaching 90% of your potential 0,7g/kg is plenty (which in my book isn't low but moderate since equals to about 300g/day of meat for an 80kg individual).

 

You mean 0.7gr/kg per meal? So 5 meals ≈ 300gr daily?



#6 aconita

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 09:01 PM

0,7g/Kg at 80kg = 56g, since meat, fish and poultry are about 20% proteins 300g = 60g proteins, therefore 0,7g/kg for an 80 kg person equals to about 300gr meat (or fish or poultry) a day.

 

 



#7 mccoy

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 07:43 PM

I am a firm believer in the low-protein, low methionine lifestyle. It is the only way to live to extend maximum lifespan which is supported by scientific literature. 

 

So could this be combined with body building? Does a low protein lifestyle build muscle? Thanks.   :)

 

 

This is my take:

 

  1. Bulding muscle, that is activating the anabolic mTOR cascade in skeletal muscles which causes MPS (muscle protein synthesis) requires the right ingredients: mechanical stress (lifting weights)+energy (glucose, oxygen)+amminoacids, especially so leucine. Insuline and growth factor increase the baseline but seem to be not really necessary if mechanical stress is present (it impinges directly upon mTORC)
  2. the above combination of ingredients varies widely across individuals. Other important factors like the myostatine signal intervene in the process.
  3. Low protein → (low leucine signal+low amminoacid availability) will not activate mTOR in muscle tissues, which is necessary to MPS
  4. What is low protein is highly individual. RDA of 0.8 g kg-1 d-1 is an high value (cautious value) for inactive people who do not wish to develop protein deficiency. It may not be enough when lifting weights with arduos workouts. 
  5. By amplyfing the glucose-Insulin signal you can optimize/decrease the quantity of amminoacids, although the right threshold for dequate mTOR phosphorylation → MPS should be empirically ascertained

 

In practice, if you eat enough carbs/fats you may avoid eating too many protein. Maintenance requires less protein but synthesis is another ballgame. 

 

My suggestion would be to alternate rare periods of bulking, forgetting about caloric restriction, and longer periods of caloric restriction with relatively high protein, like 2*RDA. At the same trying to decrease 2*RDA and see what is your optimum value for muscle maintenance in caloric restriction.

 

When you work out with weights dietary protein are used to substitute worn out muscle tissue, so it doesn't contribute to mTOR overamplification in other organs and tissues different from skeletal muscle. This means that longevity is boosted.

 

Also, pure aminoacids like leucine and BCAAs should be avoided if you are not an hard-gainer, or used exclusively before the heavier workouts. Also avoide carnitine and other supplements used by bodybuilders. It goes without saying to avoid androgens like the devil.

 

It is not necessary to boost IGF-1 since the mechanoreceptors signals supersedes the IGF-1+insuline→ PIK3→Akt signal

 

Pls note, my interest in the above is practical since I wanted to do exactly what you wish to do. I cannot tell you if it worked since I had to stop because of various problems with previous surgery and nagging aches at connective tissues and joints. But when working out hard you can stay on caloric restriction even with 3000 kCal a day.

 

Attached File  baar.JPG   66.26KB   5 downloads

 

Attached File  nihms352807f1.jpg   59.28KB   5 downloads


Edited by mccoy, 05 June 2017 - 07:49 PM.

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#8 William Sterog

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 11:32 AM

mccoy, why are you against Carnitine? I use Acetyl L-Carnitine Arginate for Nootropic purposes.

#9 Sith

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 12:57 PM

 

I am a firm believer in the low-protein, low methionine lifestyle. It is the only way to live to extend maximum lifespan which is supported by scientific literature. 

 

So could this be combined with body building? Does a low protein lifestyle build muscle? Thanks.   :)

 

 

This is my take:

 

  1. Bulding muscle, that is activating the anabolic mTOR cascade in skeletal muscles which causes MPS (muscle protein synthesis) requires the right ingredients: mechanical stress (lifting weights)+energy (glucose, oxygen)+amminoacids, especially so leucine. Insuline and growth factor increase the baseline but seem to be not really necessary if mechanical stress is present (it impinges directly upon mTORC)
  2. the above combination of ingredients varies widely across individuals. Other important factors like the myostatine signal intervene in the process.
  3. Low protein → (low leucine signal+low amminoacid availability) will not activate mTOR in muscle tissues, which is necessary to MPS
  4. What is low protein is highly individual. RDA of 0.8 g kg-1 d-1 is an high value (cautious value) for inactive people who do not wish to develop protein deficiency. It may not be enough when lifting weights with arduos workouts. 
  5. By amplyfing the glucose-Insulin signal you can optimize/decrease the quantity of amminoacids, although the right threshold for dequate mTOR phosphorylation → MPS should be empirically ascertained

 

In practice, if you eat enough carbs/fats you may avoid eating too many protein. Maintenance requires less protein but synthesis is another ballgame. 

 

My suggestion would be to alternate rare periods of bulking, forgetting about caloric restriction, and longer periods of caloric restriction with relatively high protein, like 2*RDA. At the same trying to decrease 2*RDA and see what is your optimum value for muscle maintenance in caloric restriction.

 

When you work out with weights dietary protein are used to substitute worn out muscle tissue, so it doesn't contribute to mTOR overamplification in other organs and tissues different from skeletal muscle. This means that longevity is boosted.

 

Also, pure aminoacids like leucine and BCAAs should be avoided if you are not an hard-gainer, or used exclusively before the heavier workouts. Also avoide carnitine and other supplements used by bodybuilders. It goes without saying to avoid androgens like the devil.

 

It is not necessary to boost IGF-1 since the mechanoreceptors signals supersedes the IGF-1+insuline→ PIK3→Akt signal

 

Pls note, my interest in the above is practical since I wanted to do exactly what you wish to do. I cannot tell you if it worked since I had to stop because of various problems with previous surgery and nagging aches at connective tissues and joints. But when working out hard you can stay on caloric restriction even with 3000 kCal a day.

 

attachicon.gifbaar.JPG

 

attachicon.gifnihms352807f1.jpg

 

 

Thanks for the reply, that is very helpful! 

 

If I have understood you correctly, dietary protein will have a smaller effect on protein when used in conjunction to weight lifting? Are there any studies that support this?

 

And BCAAs can be avoided because IGF-1 is not necessary, can you clarify why this is?  :)

 

I am sorry to hear about your surgery and aches. Hopefully, in the near future, you could also try this method of weight lifting. I am also using hydrolysed collagen as a protein supplement, it has tremendous joint healthy testimonies. Perhaps it may be worth a try? 

 


Edited by Sith, 06 June 2017 - 12:58 PM.


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#10 Forever21

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 04:33 PM

I think not because muscle builders look at Mark Sisson as a vegan manorexic peepsqeek and he's just on Paleo.



#11 Daniscience

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 06:06 PM

What about stimulating mTOR once a day (big meal after weighting lifts) followed by a fasting period, a.k.a. 16 or 20 hours (intermittent fasting). Your other meals should be smaller and frugal while containing important micronutrients and fatty acids.

 

Seems like a good approach to me.

 

p.s. eating all day long big carb+protein meals is hazardous in my opinion, and too many bodybuilders do it everyday. Look how this kid aged in just 3 years:

 

2014:

2017:


Edited by Daniscience, 06 June 2017 - 06:09 PM.


#12 mccoy

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 09:46 PM

mccoy, why are you against Carnitine? I use Acetyl L-Carnitine Arginate for Nootropic purposes.

 

William, in bodybuilding it provides resistance to fatigue, but in a longevity extension scheme, L-carnitine may increase TMAO in the system, which is agaisnt longevity....

 

 

 

We demonstrate here that metabolism by intestinal microbiota of dietary L-carnitine, a trimethylamine abundant in red meat, also produces TMAO and accelerates atherosclerosis in mice. Omnivorous human subjects produced more TMAO than did vegans or vegetarians following ingestion of L-carnitine through a microbiota-dependent mechanism. 

 

Intestinal microbiota metabolism of L-carnitine, a nutrient in red meat, promotes atherosclerosis Nature Medicine   19,   576–585   (2013)   doi:10.1038/nm.3145 Received   07 December 2012  Accepted   27 February 2013  Published online   07 April 2013

#13 mccoy

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 10:05 PM

 

 

 

Thanks for the reply, that is very helpful! 

 

If I have understood you correctly, dietary protein will have a smaller effect on protein when used in conjunction to weight lifting? Are there any studies that support this?

 

And BCAAs can be avoided because IGF-1 is not necessary, can you clarify why this is?  :)

 

I am sorry to hear about your surgery and aches. Hopefully, in the near future, you could also try this method of weight lifting. I am also using hydrolysed collagen as a protein supplement, it has tremendous joint healthy testimonies. Perhaps it may be worth a try? 

 

 

Sith, there are lots of articles on the greater need of protein for resistance athletes, although the body adapts to it after a while. Protein needs are higher in conditions of energy deficit.

I'll find out some references. Since heavy resistance training causes muscle tissue lesions and breakdown, more protein is required to restore muscles and to promote growth. Much of such proteins/EAAs are sequestered for MPS and of course do not contribute to systemic mTOR signaling. In conditions of energy optimum (enough calories) less protein is needed.

 

BCAAs if taken indiscriminately can cause chronic overamplification of mTOR activity, and this is an anti-longevity condition. Whey proteins, ditto, since they are rich in leucine.

 

If the above are taken in conjuction with strenuos weightlifting, leucine is likely sequestered by muscle tissue and not spike in other organs, allegedly being eliminated with urine. 

 

However, the above may sound like a Faustian bargain, since we cannot tell for sure if the leucine spike won't affect other organs. At least, I'm not aware of definitive studies about that.

 

Bottom line, it may not be safe to regularly take BCAAs and whey protein on a life-extension scheme, because it may cause chronic high phosporylation ratio in mTORC1 in tissues different from muscle tissues.

 

Thanks for the collagen tip, although I'm eating a plant-based diet now so I'm not sure it fits my present plan. What I'm presently doing is to lift light loads and hope that the problem will subside.



#14 Sith

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 10:12 PM

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the reply, that is very helpful! 

 

If I have understood you correctly, dietary protein will have a smaller effect on protein when used in conjunction to weight lifting? Are there any studies that support this?

 

And BCAAs can be avoided because IGF-1 is not necessary, can you clarify why this is?  :)

 

I am sorry to hear about your surgery and aches. Hopefully, in the near future, you could also try this method of weight lifting. I am also using hydrolysed collagen as a protein supplement, it has tremendous joint healthy testimonies. Perhaps it may be worth a try? 

 

 

Sith, there are lots of articles on the greater need of protein for resistance athletes, although the body adapts to it after a while. Protein needs are higher in conditions of energy deficit.

I'll find out some references. Since heavy resistance training causes muscle tissue lesions and breakdown, more protein is required to restore muscles and to promote growth. Much of such proteins/EAAs are sequestered for MPS and of course do not contribute to systemic mTOR signaling. In conditions of energy optimum (enough calories) less protein is needed.

 

BCAAs if taken indiscriminately can cause chronic overamplification of mTOR activity, and this is an anti-longevity condition. Whey proteins, ditto, since they are rich in leucine.

 

If the above are taken in conjuction with strenuos weightlifting, leucine is likely sequestered by muscle tissue and not spike in other organs, allegedly being eliminated with urine. 

 

However, the above may sound like a Faustian bargain, since we cannot tell for sure if the leucine spike won't affect other organs. At least, I'm not aware of definitive studies about that.

 

Bottom line, it may not be safe to regularly take BCAAs and whey protein on a life-extension scheme, because it may cause chronic high phosporylation ratio in mTORC1 in tissues different from muscle tissues.

 

Thanks for the collagen tip, although I'm eating a plant-based diet now so I'm not sure it fits my present plan. What I'm presently doing is to lift light loads and hope that the problem will subside.

 

 

Again, thanks for the information. It is of great value; the bodybuilding community is exceedingly unhealthy and promotes anti-longevity lifestyles. Though, I do think weight lifting should be part of a healthy exercise program. 

 

Collagen fits excellently alongside a plant based diet. It is deficient in Methionine and BCAAs alike. You may be able to get vegan collagen, though it may come at a premium price. 



#15 mccoy

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 10:37 AM

Never heard about vegan collagen but I'm goign to enquire!

 

Pls also see this post by Michael Rae in the CR society forum, who is an administrator in this forum as well. His points are of course referred to lab mice, although he extrapolates to humans at the end. Pls note that his consideratiosn are related to longevity=lifespan, not healthspan. Exercise most surely improves healthspan, if not extreme.



#16 gill3362

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 06:30 AM

I have actually done a ton of reading, thinking, writing on the bodybuilding/longevity conundrum. I found some interesting studies on a lot of different aspects of the issue. 

First, protein. Tons of studies have found that the 1g/lbs of protein intake daily is a total myth. 
Here is a summary of the studies I found. 

  • Tarnopolsky et al. (1992) observed no differences in whole body protein synthesis or indexes of lean body mass in strength athletes consuming either 0.64g/lb or 1.10g/lb over a 2 week period. Protein oxidation did increase in the high protein group, indicating a nutrient overload.
  • Walberg et al. (1988) found that 0.73g/lb was sufficient to maintain positive nitrogen balance in cutting weightlifters over a 7 day time period.
  • Tarnopolsky et al. (1988) found that only 0.37g/lb was required to maintain positive nitrogen balance in elite bodybuilders (over 5 years of experience, possible previous use of androgens) over a 10 day period. 0.45g/lb was sufficient to maintain lean body mass in bodybuilders over a 2 week period. The authors suggested that 0.55g/lb was sufficient for bodybuilders.
  • Lemon et al. (1992) found no differences in muscle mass or strength gains in novice bodybuilders consuming either 0.61g/lb or 1.19g/lb over a 4 week period. Based on nitrogen balance data, the authors recommended 0.75g/lb.
  • Hoffman et al. (2006) found no differences in body composition, strength or resting hormonal concentrations in strength athletes consuming either 0.77g/lb or >0.91g/lb over a 3 month period.

 

My conclusion from all that is that about .55g/lbs is perfectly fine for maintaining muscle mass and .8g is the absolute maximum needed for growth. Maybe .8g is a little much, too.

I have tested this theory out on myself (n=1) and had plenty of success building muscle with around .6g per day. 

All that to say, you can build muscle with protein low enough that I doubt you get too much of the bad effects. Especially if you choose good sources, avoid red meat, etc. 

As far as mTOR and IGF-1, I think you can buffer the ill effects there with periods of protein fasting or full on fasting. You need mTOR and IGF-1 to build muscle (and muscle mass is crucial to longevity), so you just have to cycle it properly in my opinion.

You can check out where I compiled all me research over here: 
https://www.lifebox....ng-and-lifespan


 



#17 mccoy

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 01:24 PM

Sorry the above post missed the link to Michael Rae's post

 

https://www.crsociet...r-and-exercise/



#18 mccoy

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 01:48 PM

...

My conclusion from all that is that about .55g/lbs is perfectly fine for maintaining muscle mass and .8g is the absolute maximum needed for growth. Maybe .8g is a little much, too.

I have tested this theory out on myself (n=1) and had plenty of success building muscle with around .6g per day. 

All that to say, you can build muscle with protein low enough that I doubt you get too much of the bad effects. Especially if you choose good sources, avoid red meat, etc. 

As far as mTOR and IGF-1, I think you can buffer the ill effects there with periods of protein fasting or full on fasting. You need mTOR and IGF-1 to build muscle (and muscle mass is crucial to longevity), so you just have to cycle it properly in my opinion.

You can check out where I compiled all me research over here: 
https://www.lifebox....ng-and-lifespan


 

 

Interesting observation, gill.

 

I'd like to remind to those who reason by metrics, like myself, that the conversion factor from lbs to kg is 0.45, so when we write 0.8 g/lbs that is about 1.8 g/kg

 

Most probably, the exaggerations related to the protein needed are supported by the whey powder manufacturers and BCAAs manufactureres. The latter has becoem a megabucks business.

 

anyway, we must recognize that heavy bodybuilding workouts are absolutely grueling, so it makes sense that protein needs are pretty high, it depends on workout schedules.

 

Another factor may be that competitive builders are on steroids and androgens, and the skeletal muscle cells are able to use up more aminoacids than 'natural' people. Such benefit translates to a deleterious effect on longevity and healthspan of course.

 

A good link on protein needs f with some recent references is Alan Aragon. Pls see slide illustration @ minute 3:15

 


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#19 aconita

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 09:19 PM

https://www.stronger...udying-protein/



#20 green

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Posted 10 June 2017 - 06:44 PM

I have actually done a ton of reading, thinking, writing on the bodybuilding/longevity conundrum. I found some interesting studies on a lot of different aspects of the issue. 

First, protein. Tons of studies have found that the 1g/lbs of protein intake daily is a total myth. 
Here is a summary of the studies I found. 

  • Tarnopolsky et al. (1992) observed no differences in whole body protein synthesis or indexes of lean body mass in strength athletes consuming either 0.64g/lb or 1.10g/lb over a 2 week period. Protein oxidation did increase in the high protein group, indicating a nutrient overload.
  • Walberg et al. (1988) found that 0.73g/lb was sufficient to maintain positive nitrogen balance in cutting weightlifters over a 7 day time period.
  • Tarnopolsky et al. (1988) found that only 0.37g/lb was required to maintain positive nitrogen balance in elite bodybuilders (over 5 years of experience, possible previous use of androgens) over a 10 day period. 0.45g/lb was sufficient to maintain lean body mass in bodybuilders over a 2 week period. The authors suggested that 0.55g/lb was sufficient for bodybuilders.
  • Lemon et al. (1992) found no differences in muscle mass or strength gains in novice bodybuilders consuming either 0.61g/lb or 1.19g/lb over a 4 week period. Based on nitrogen balance data, the authors recommended 0.75g/lb.
  • Hoffman et al. (2006) found no differences in body composition, strength or resting hormonal concentrations in strength athletes consuming either 0.77g/lb or >0.91g/lb over a 3 month period.

 

My conclusion from all that is that about .55g/lbs is perfectly fine for maintaining muscle mass and .8g is the absolute maximum needed for growth. Maybe .8g is a little much, too.

I have tested this theory out on myself (n=1) and had plenty of success building muscle with around .6g per day. 

All that to say, you can build muscle with protein low enough that I doubt you get too much of the bad effects. Especially if you choose good sources, avoid red meat, etc. 

As far as mTOR and IGF-1, I think you can buffer the ill effects there with periods of protein fasting or full on fasting. You need mTOR and IGF-1 to build muscle (and muscle mass is crucial to longevity), so you just have to cycle it properly in my opinion.

You can check out where I compiled all me research over here: 
https://www.lifebox....ng-and-lifespan


 

 



#21 mccoy

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Posted 12 June 2017 - 11:35 AM

 

Thanks aconita for the link. The prevalent reasoning in the bodybuilders arena seems to be that more proteins won't hurt (except than to the wallet), so who cares if we eat huge amounts. The precautionary principle.

Except that too many protein can really hurt. Chronic overamplification of mTOR in the system, caused by the exaggerated Leucin and AAs signal (coupled to the IIS signal), means higher risk of cancer and degenerative diseases. 



#22 aconita

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Posted 12 June 2017 - 09:07 PM

Chronic overamplification of mTOR in the system, caused by the exaggerated Leucin and AAs signal (coupled to the IIS signal), means higher risk of cancer and degenerative diseases.

 

I am not so sure about that when talking about athletes training hard or people carrying a hard physical lifestyle, it might be a whole different ball game for a sedentary lifestyle, of course, in which case even just an high caloric nutrition would be kind of risky.

 

...and mice are terrible models to assess those kind of things, first because they don't usually carry a very physical lifestyle since they spend their whole life confined in a cage just waiting to get fed, second because mice do get always cancer anyway, it is just in their nature.


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#23 mccoy

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Posted 13 June 2017 - 08:03 AM

I totally agree on the impossibility to extrapolate accurately from lab rats to humans.

 

The conceptual framework though, by now pretty consolidated it seems, remains.

 

I find it perfectly reasonable to believe that  a constant, undeviating, very abundant inflow of large amounts of nutrients cannot be neglected by the main nutrient sensor in cells.

Even though much Glucose and Leucine are sequestered by muscle tissues, the literature points out that muscle develops a resistance to nutrients and needs to rest; in a few words, MPS occurs in stages and is not a continuos process.

During such rest periods nutrients hit organs and other tissues, that's inevitable. The chronic overamplification of mTOR activity in such organs poses significant hazards.

 

What is the optimum in bodybuilders who are bulking is probably unknown, I'm not aware of studies where phosphorylation of mTOR in muscle tissue and other organs has been measured in bulking bodybuilders.

 

The fact that I want to stress is that today indiscriminate overfeeding is common. In lieu of a consensus in optimum feeding, bodybuilders will just keep hurling huge quantities of nutrients to the cells. 

It is reasonable to believe that such indiscriminate feeding is not without health hazards and this is a commonly overlooked factor, to the advantage of the supplements industry.

Even though some researchers have underlined that.

 



#24 aconita

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Posted 13 June 2017 - 09:44 PM

Problem with doing research on bodybuilders (or athletes in general, for that matter) is that it is impossible to exclude pharmacological interventions like steroids, SARMS, HGH, etc...which would considerably alter the outcomes of any research.

 

Anyway any extreme is unlikely to be a smart strategy for optimal health and lifespan, therefore it much depends by what we mean with "bodybuilding", agonistic bodybuilding for example is unlikely to involve very healthy practices as basically all sports at agonistic levels.  

 

MPS occurs in stages and is not a continuos process.

During such rest periods nutrients hit organs and other tissues, that's inevitable. The chronic overamplification of mTOR activity in such organs poses significant hazards.

 

If this is true it wouldn't be a chronic overamplification of mTOR activity in such organs anyway but only when muscles develops a resistance to nutrients and needs to rest (which wouldn't be long).

 

If really concerned trowing in one or two 24h fasting a week is not going to hinder any gains, some form of intermittent fasting too can be employed successfully leaving some room for rest to metabolic pathways.



#25 Sith

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Posted 14 June 2017 - 11:47 PM

I totally agree on the impossibility to extrapolate accurately from lab rats to humans.

 

The conceptual framework though, by now pretty consolidated it seems, remains.

 

I find it perfectly reasonable to believe that  a constant, undeviating, very abundant inflow of large amounts of nutrients cannot be neglected by the main nutrient sensor in cells.

Even though much Glucose and Leucine are sequestered by muscle tissues, the literature points out that muscle develops a resistance to nutrients and needs to rest; in a few words, MPS occurs in stages and is not a continuos process.

During such rest periods nutrients hit organs and other tissues, that's inevitable. The chronic overamplification of mTOR activity in such organs poses significant hazards.

 

What is the optimum in bodybuilders who are bulking is probably unknown, I'm not aware of studies where phosphorylation of mTOR in muscle tissue and other organs has been measured in bulking bodybuilders.

 

The fact that I want to stress is that today indiscriminate overfeeding is common. In lieu of a consensus in optimum feeding, bodybuilders will just keep hurling huge quantities of nutrients to the cells. 

It is reasonable to believe that such indiscriminate feeding is not without health hazards and this is a commonly overlooked factor, to the advantage of the supplements industry.

Even though some researchers have underlined that.

 

I thought I would update you on my situation.

 

So I have began resistance training and it is going okay. Rather than increase protein in the form of Whey, or even Pea, I have decided to supplement with 20g of hydrolysed collagen which is deficient in BCAAs and Methionine. 

 

I will see how it goes.  :)


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#26 aconita

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Posted 15 June 2017 - 12:38 AM

As a beginner you don't need any supplements in the first place, eat your food instead.

 

For that matter supplementing proteins in powder form is more a matter of practicality than a need even for advanced athletes...but since it is cheap too I am not against it, it might have its place but don't overestimate it.

 

Hydrolized collagen as a protein supplement isn't likely to be a smart choice but an expensive one (or at least more expensive than simple whey protein).

 

If you want to grow you have to create the basis for growth, if you think that growing may be detrimental to health leave alone the goal of growing or to do so at your full potential, at least.

 

Generally speaking supplements (in sport) are meant to get that little edge to help reaching full potential.

 

If you aren't willing to eat up to 5000 calories a day and train hard it makes no sense to supplement 20g hydrolized collagen, or any other supplement for that matter.

 

It makes no sense to buy a Ferrari but only driving not past 50kmh for fear of having a car crash as it makes no sense to buy a little Toyota in pursue of the car racing world title, one has to make choices....which doesn't implies there are only extremes but to have realistic goals according to the price one is willing to pay.


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#27 Sith

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Posted 15 June 2017 - 03:41 PM

As a beginner you don't need any supplements in the first place, eat your food instead.

 

For that matter supplementing proteins in powder form is more a matter of practicality than a need even for advanced athletes...but since it is cheap too I am not against it, it might have its place but don't overestimate it.

 

Hydrolized collagen as a protein supplement isn't likely to be a smart choice but an expensive one (or at least more expensive than simple whey protein).

 

If you want to grow you have to create the basis for growth, if you think that growing may be detrimental to health leave alone the goal of growing or to do so at your full potential, at least.

 

Generally speaking supplements (in sport) are meant to get that little edge to help reaching full potential.

 

If you aren't willing to eat up to 5000 calories a day and train hard it makes no sense to supplement 20g hydrolized collagen, or any other supplement for that matter.

 

It makes no sense to buy a Ferrari but only driving not past 50kmh for fear of having a car crash as it makes no sense to buy a little Toyota in pursue of the car racing world title, one has to make choices....which doesn't implies there are only extremes but to have realistic goals according to the price one is willing to pay.

 

 

How can someone on a life extension forum advocate eating 5000 calories a day, with high methionine and protein content? 

 

A slight modification to your analogy would be driving a Ferrari at 200kmh, enjoying the ride before crashing and burning before you even know it!  


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#28 aconita

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Posted 15 June 2017 - 09:05 PM

Leave alone bodybuilding, it isn't for you, period.

 

Take some extra English language classes instead, it will help you to understand what you read. :)


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#29 Sith

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Posted 15 June 2017 - 11:24 PM

Leave alone bodybuilding, it isn't for you, period.

 

Take some extra English language classes instead, it will help you to understand what you read. :)

 

I'm not here to get into a personal debate. 

 

If you cannot offer constructive advice, then I suggest you post elsewhere on another thread.



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#30 aconita

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Posted 16 June 2017 - 12:08 AM

You don't necessarily have to agree but when you ask it is childish to refuse the answers you get just because they don't match with your knowledge, If you already know it all don't ask.  

 

And by the way driving a Ferrari at 200kmh doesn't lead by itself to crashing and burning...LOL!!!

 

...or maybe is just that the reason why there are not so many Ferrari around (all crashed and burnt)?


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