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L-Tetrahydropalmatine (L-THP/Rotundine) and L-Stepholidine for the treatment of schizophrenia

schizophrenia l-thp l-tetrahydropalmatine l-stepholidine rotundine

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#1 YoungSchizo

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 05:36 PM


There is very little known about these two substances (which are extracted from the same Chinese herb) in the Western world but it has been in clinical use as a treatment in China for decades (more than 40 years). The Western pharma has recently shown greater interest in these two compounds (and to date only have conducted just a few trials on humans with quite good results) for the treatment of Schizophrenia, Alzheimer's and cocaine/heroin addiction.

 

It doesn't say much but here are the wiki's:

L-Tetrahydropalmatine

L-Stepholidine

 

Mechanism of action of L-Tetrahydropalmatine:

 

 

Pharmacological actions at D1, D2, D3 dopamine and other receptors

Primarily through the efforts of Chinese scientists, most notably led by Dr. Jin Guozhang, a researcher at the Shanghai Medical Institute, much has been learned about the pharmacological profile of l-THP. A large body of evidence suggests that l-THP binds to D1 and D2 dopamine receptors [10-12]. In contrast to other THPB derivatives, which have partial agonist effects at the D1 dopamine receptor, l-THP is an antagonist at both of these receptors as defined according to its minimal stimulation of cAMP production in D1 receptor-expressing HEK cells relative to dopamine ([13] and Mantsch, unpublished results) and lack of D2 receptor-mediated mitogenic effects. The Ki values for l-THP at D1 and D2 dopamine receptors are approximately 124 nM (D1) and 388 nM (D2), while the IC50 values are 166 nM (D1) and 1.4 μM (D2), respectively (Table 1). The relatively high affinity of l-THP at D1 vs. D2 receptors, distinguishes it from other available dopamine receptor antagonist drugs (e.g., haloperidol). Although l-THP lacks high affinity for these receptors, pharmacokinetic data suggest that brain concentrations of l-THP that are reached following administration of clinically relevant doses are more than sufficient for occupancy [14]. L-THP also binds to the D3 dopamine receptor ([13] and see Table 1). Considering that the D3 receptor has been identified as a target of interest for medications aimed at preventing relapse, blockade of D3 receptors could contribute to the putative utility of l-THP as an anti-addiction agent [15]. However, the affinity of l-THP for the D3 receptor is considerably lower (1.4 μM) than for D1 and D2 receptors, and the IC50 is close to 3.3 μM. Thus, the ability of l-THP to antagonize D3 receptors at clinically relevant doses is unclear. In addition to the antagonism of post-synaptic dopamine receptors, the blockade of pre-synaptic autoreceptors by l-THP results in increased dopamine release [16], and it has been suggested that lower affinity of l-THP for D2 receptors may confer some degree of autoreceptor selectivity [16, 17].

Along with dopamine receptors, l-THP has been reported to interact with a number of other receptor types, including alpha-1 adrenergic receptors, at which it functions as an antagonist [18], and gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA)A receptors, at which it facilitates GABA binding through positive allosteric effects [19]). Additionally, l-THP displays significant binding to 5-HT1A and alpha-2 adrenergic receptors (Table 1). In the case of 5-HT1A receptors, l-THP binds with a Ki of approximately 340 nM and has an IC50 of approximately 370 nM, concentrations that are likely exceeded in the brain following administration of l-THP doses that are active in animal models.

 

More compact info of L-THP and schizophrenia written by a schizophrenic blogger.

 

Mechanism of action of L-Stepholidine (in schizophrenia):

General information

 

Based on the sedative-tranquillizing effect of l-THP, Professor Jin started a pioneer work of THPBs acting on dopamine receptors in the brain.  Among THPBs, he has discovered l-stepholidine, isolated from Stephania intermedica LO, to possess dual dopamine D1 agonist and dopamine D2 antagonist actions.  It means that l-stepholidine simultaneously acting on D1 and D2 receptors exhibits both inverse effects on different targets.  That is a novel neuropharmacological action.  Moreover, he found that the dihydroxy groups in the structure of l-stepholidine is the intrinsic chemical elements to contribute the dual actions and become the key factor in pharmacological creativity.  Furthermore, the dual actions are not only found in l-stepholidine but also in the other dihydroxy-THPBs.  l-Stepholidine is mere a leading compound of them.  In other words, the unique characteristics of dual actions only belong to the dihydroxy-THPBs up-to-dately.  More interestingly, the dual actions of l-stepholidine have the selective action targets in the brain, matching with a new hypothesis of schizophrenia pathogenesis.  Its D1 agonist action selectively acts on the medial prefrontal cortex (mPFC), while its D2 antagonist action selectively on subcortex, such as nucleus accumbens and ventral tagmental area (VTA).  This unique dual actions just match with the dysfucnction of D1 receptors is in the mPFC of schizophrenia patients and the hyperfunction of D2 receptors in the subcortex structures of patients.  l-Stepholidine now is a first one of potential novel antipsychotic drug with dual D1 agonist and D2 antagonist actions on DA receptors.  The role of the dual actions first discovered in DH-THPBs from traditional Chinese herbs,  would lead more attractive compounds emerged.

 

Study's with L-Stepholidine in schizophrenia.

This one is quite interesting: The Neuropharmacology of (-)-Stepholidine and its Potential Applications

 

 

7.1. SPD for the Treatment of Schizophrenia

Schizophrenia is a chronic, devastating mental disorder. It is characterized by the presence of both negative and positive symptoms. Schizophrenia is the most serious of all psychiatric illnesses and affects about 1% of the world's population, but the etiology of schizophrenia remains obscure. According to recent clinical and experimental studies, the cause of schizophrenia may involve an imbalance of cortical/subcortical DA systems. Specifically, hyperactivity of D2 receptors in subcortical mesolimbic regions, such as the NAc, may produce the positive symptoms of schizophrenia, while hypofunction of D1 receptors in the mPFC is considered to be responsible for the negative symptoms and cognitive impairment [9, 14, 55].

D1 and D2 receptors have important functional interactions (see section 2). However, these interactions were abnormal in over half of the postmortem striata from schizophrenic patients, suggesting an impaired functional linkage between D1 and D2 receptors in schizophrenic patients [57]. Therefore, the restoration of normal, functional linkage between D1 and D2 receptors may be an effective strategy for the treatment of schizophrenia.

Before atypical neuroleptics were discovered, clinical doses of the available antipsychotic drugs primarily blocked D2 receptors [13, 56], but unfortunately they were less effective at PFC D1 receptors. As a result, a large proportion of schizophrenic patients did not show adequate relief from their negative symptoms [1]. However, even with the development of atypical neuroleptics, most of them display only very small D1 agonistic effects on the PFC D1 receptor. Therefore, there is an urgent need to develop an agent that exerts both D1 agonistic and D2 antagonistic effects, which should more effectively restore synergism between D1 and D2 receptors and alleviate both the negative and positive symptoms of schizophrenia. SPD possesses these characteristics and may serve as a novel, promising agent for schizophrenia therapeutics.

Clinical trials are currently testing the potential use of SPD as an antipsychotic drug. Co-administration of SPD and typical antipsychotic drugs (e.g., phenothiazines or butyrophenones) could significantly enhance the effectiveness of drug therapy for mental disorders. In addition, SPD alone has been shown to exhibit a significant therapeutic effect. Furthermore, a double-blind comparative study demonstrated that SPD not only improved the positive symptoms of schizophrenia, but also significantly alleviated the negative symptoms compared to perphenazine, a common drug prescribed for schizophrenic patients [36, 37, 74]. Recently, experiments have also demonstrated that SPD exerts its antipsychotic-like effects in a schizophrenic animal model with few extrapyramidal side effects [18]. The promising therapeutic effects of SPD probably are the result of its dual D1 agonistic and D2 antagonistic effects, which can potentially reverse hyperactivity of D2 receptors in subcortical mesolimbic regions and restore normal function of D1 receptors in the mPFC, thus restoring normal, functional linkage between D1 and D2 receptors.

 

Recent developments in studies of l-stepholidine and its analogs: chemistry, pharmacology and clinical implications.

The antipsychotic potential of l-stepholidine--a naturally occurring dopamine receptor D1 agonist and D2 antagonist.

Preclinical ResearchEffects of l-Stepholidine on Forebrain Fos Expression: Comparison with Clozapine and Haloperidol (Didn't quite understand this one but I'm just not that smart as some of you guys)

 

 

I'm sorry for the layout of this post, I'm kinda disorganized and didn't know how to present it more clearly. However, the reason I'm posting this is is because I'm able to get these compounds cheaply from Chinese chem-labs and trial them. But before I do so, I would like your guys opinion/thoughts about these two compounds. Especially about L-Stepholidine, according to the research, L-Stepholidine is able to balance D1 (by being a potent dopamine agonist and treating negative symptoms) and D2 (as a antagonist and treating positive symptoms). This unique mechanism of action is not seen in any available antipsychotic. 



#2 mateusbrasil

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Posted 01 September 2017 - 09:44 PM

Are you already on some antipsychotic?



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#3 YoungSchizo

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Posted 01 September 2017 - 10:46 PM

Are you already on some antipsychotic?


Yes, Latuda and Zyprexa! Though my interest was more into L-Stepholidine rather than L-THP. But I got some quotations back from Chinese chem-labs for L-Stepholidine, it's 200USD for just 20 mg. Too much for me.

#4 mateusbrasil

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 12:18 AM

 

Are you already on some antipsychotic?


Yes, Latuda and Zyprexa! Though my interest was more into L-Stepholidine rather than L-THP. But I got some quotations back from Chinese chem-labs for L-Stepholidine, it's 200USD for just 20 mg. Too much for me.

 

It's too bad, unfortunately substances extracted from plant with high purity is usually very expensive compared to the whole plant extract.
 
yes L-Stepholidine is very interesting and convenient, it's as if nature created it specifically for schizophrenia!
 
but anyway? do not you think it would be kind of "rough" to add this, since you take two antipsychotics, would not you be "half clouded" to observe the benefits of L-Stepholidine? what do you think?


#5 YoungSchizo

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 01:20 AM

Are you already on some antipsychotic?

Yes, Latuda and Zyprexa! Though my interest was more into L-Stepholidine rather than L-THP. But I got some quotations back from Chinese chem-labs for L-Stepholidine, it's 200USD for just 20 mg. Too much for me.
It's too bad, unfortunately substances extracted from plant with high purity is usually very expensive compared to the whole plant extract.

yes L-Stepholidine is very interesting and convenient, it's as if nature created it specifically for schizophrenia!

but anyway? do not you think it would be kind of "rough" to add this, since you take two antipsychotics, would not you be "half clouded" to observe the benefits of L-Stepholidine? what do you think?

It's a D1 agonist and a D2 antagonist. Since D1 are hypoactive due to schizophrenia and/or antipsychotics fail to activate it or even don't do anything to D1 receptors I'm guessing we might benefit from it and might see results from it on negative symptoms (even if we are on antipsychotics). That's what made me curious about L-Stepholodine, it's D1 agonism.

L-THP is cheap but I see no benefit in adding another D1, D2 and D3 antagonist to antipsychotics, that'll be "rough". (I found 2 user reviews on L-THP, both reviews say it's just really sadeting/tiring.)

#6 mateusbrasil

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 01:49 AM

 

 

 

Are you already on some antipsychotic?

Yes, Latuda and Zyprexa! Though my interest was more into L-Stepholidine rather than L-THP. But I got some quotations back from Chinese chem-labs for L-Stepholidine, it's 200USD for just 20 mg. Too much for me.
It's too bad, unfortunately substances extracted from plant with high purity is usually very expensive compared to the whole plant extract.

yes L-Stepholidine is very interesting and convenient, it's as if nature created it specifically for schizophrenia!

but anyway? do not you think it would be kind of "rough" to add this, since you take two antipsychotics, would not you be "half clouded" to observe the benefits of L-Stepholidine? what do you think?

It's a D1 agonist and a D2 antagonist. Since D1 are hypoactive due to schizophrenia and/or antipsychotics fail to activate it or even don't do anything to D1 receptors I'm guessing we might benefit from it and might see results from it on negative symptoms (even if we are on antipsychotics). That's what made me curious about L-Stepholodine, it's D1 agonism.

L-THP is cheap but I see no benefit in adding another D1, D2 and D3 antagonist to antipsychotics, that'll be "rough". (I found 2 user reviews on L-THP, both reviews say it's just really sadeting/tiring.)

 

so you're saying that L-Stepholodine's D-1 agonism
will prevent the "roughness" of having 3 antipsychotics blocking the d2 receptor?

 


Edited by mateusbrasil, 02 September 2017 - 01:54 AM.


#7 YoungSchizo

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 02:03 PM






Are you already on some antipsychotic?

Yes, Latuda and Zyprexa! Though my interest was more into L-Stepholidine rather than L-THP. But I got some quotations back from Chinese chem-labs for L-Stepholidine, it's 200USD for just 20 mg. Too much for me.

It's too bad, unfortunately substances extracted from plant with high purity is usually very expensive compared to the whole plant extract.

yes L-Stepholidine is very interesting and convenient, it's as if nature created it specifically for schizophrenia!

but anyway? do not you think it would be kind of "rough" to add this, since you take two antipsychotics, would not you be "half clouded" to observe the benefits of L-Stepholidine? what do you think?


It's a D1 agonist and a D2 antagonist. Since D1 are hypoactive due to schizophrenia and/or antipsychotics fail to activate it or even don't do anything to D1 receptors I'm guessing we might benefit from it and might see results from it on negative symptoms (even if we are on antipsychotics). That's what made me curious about L-Stepholodine, it's D1 agonism.

L-THP is cheap but I see no benefit in adding another D1, D2 and D3 antagonist to antipsychotics, that'll be "rough". (I found 2 user reviews on L-THP, both reviews say it's just really sadeting/tiring.)



so you're saying that L-Stepholodine's D-1 agonism
will prevent the "roughness" of having 3 antipsychotics blocking the d2 receptor?



Can't say. But if say, it was intolerable but the D1 agonism really alleviates negative symptoms I would've adjusted my dosage of antipsychotics.

Edited by YoungSchizo, 02 September 2017 - 02:05 PM.


#8 mateusbrasil

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 02:54 PM






Are you already on some antipsychotic?

Yes, Latuda and Zyprexa! Though my interest was more into L-Stepholidine rather than L-THP. But I got some quotations back from Chinese chem-labs for L-Stepholidine, it's 200USD for just 20 mg. Too much for me.

It's too bad, unfortunately substances extracted from plant with high purity is usually very expensive compared to the whole plant extract.

yes L-Stepholidine is very interesting and convenient, it's as if nature created it specifically for schizophrenia!

but anyway? do not you think it would be kind of "rough" to add this, since you take two antipsychotics, would not you be "half clouded" to observe the benefits of L-Stepholidine? what do you think?


It's a D1 agonist and a D2 antagonist. Since D1 are hypoactive due to schizophrenia and/or antipsychotics fail to activate it or even don't do anything to D1 receptors I'm guessing we might benefit from it and might see results from it on negative symptoms (even if we are on antipsychotics). That's what made me curious about L-Stepholodine, it's D1 agonism.

L-THP is cheap but I see no benefit in adding another D1, D2 and D3 antagonist to antipsychotics, that'll be "rough". (I found 2 user reviews on L-THP, both reviews say it's just really sadeting/tiring.)



so you're saying that L-Stepholodine's D-1 agonism
will prevent the "roughness" of having 3 antipsychotics blocking the d2 receptor?


Can't say. But if say, it was intolerable but the D1 agonism really alleviates negative symptoms I would've adjusted my dosage of antipsychotics.

 "I would've adjusted my dosage of antipsychotics."

 

It's good to know that you had this in mind.



#9 ServousNystem

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Posted 03 September 2017 - 06:44 AM

I have a cordyalis ambigua tincture/extract and I thoroughly benefitted from it. I am using it to deter me from picking up opiates again because of severe daily stressors that I have no control over. Although, L THP piques my interest far more than the extract with all the naturally occurring alkaloids.

 

 

I don't think I have heard of anyone using or getting their hands on  pure Rotundine. 



#10 YoungSchizo

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Posted 03 September 2017 - 05:58 PM

I have a cordyalis ambigua tincture/extract and I thoroughly benefitted from it. I am using it to deter me from picking up opiates again because of severe daily stressors that I have no control over. Although, L THP piques my interest far more than the extract with all the naturally occurring alkaloids.

 

 

I don't think I have heard of anyone using or getting their hands on  pure Rotundine. 

 

Isn't L-THP pure Rotundine? L-THP is cheap, if of course you trust Chinese chem-labs.


Edited by YoungSchizo, 03 September 2017 - 06:03 PM.


#11 MichaelTheAnhedonic

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Posted 03 September 2017 - 05:59 PM

I know a person who used moclobemide and it gave total remission of negative symptoms. It didn't lasted thou, abou 1,5 month relief. But it was HUGE.


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#12 YoungSchizo

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Posted 03 September 2017 - 06:06 PM

I wonder if L-THP/Rotundine is in clinical use for schizophrenia in China.. And if so, if it's a effective antipsychotic? And what the effects are, not only on positives but also negative/cognitive symptoms..? No one on here that has a Chinese background and can have a look into this?



#13 YoungSchizo

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Posted 03 September 2017 - 06:38 PM

I know a person who used moclobemide and it gave total remission of negative symptoms. It didn't lasted thou, abou 1,5 month relief. But it was HUGE.

 

LOL, I didn't even know Moclobemide existed. I've read the wiki and came to the conclusion that I actually should've tried Moclobemide first instead of starting with the shotgun Nardil (which I will be starting tomorrow). Anyway, it's good to know I have access to this interesting drug. Do you know if that person also noticed any aggravation of positive symptoms while on Moclobemide?

 

Anyway, thanks for sharing, now I have another drug I can extensively research and/or try (if Nardil fails).



#14 MichaelTheAnhedonic

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Posted 03 September 2017 - 07:26 PM

Nope, no aggravation of positive symptoms. The person was in TOTAL remission of ANY symptoms.



#15 YoungSchizo

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Posted 03 September 2017 - 07:47 PM

Nope, no aggravation of positive symptoms. The person was in TOTAL remission of ANY symptoms.

 

Quite interesting..! So far, the downside of MAOI's I've been able to find in user reviews are sleep problems (which I already suffer from and haven't find a damn "cure" against)..



#16 Heyguy

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 07:43 PM

Bump

#17 John250

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Posted 17 August 2018 - 10:44 PM

Any updates on L-THP?

#18 YoungSchizo

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Posted 25 August 2018 - 07:10 PM

Any updates on L-THP?


There was an American study in clinical trials with L-HTP in schizophrenia but I can't find it anymore. Study eliminated?

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#19 John250

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Posted 25 August 2018 - 10:03 PM

I don’t see too much on either of these unfortunately.





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: schizophrenia, l-thp, l-tetrahydropalmatine, l-stepholidine, rotundine

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