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Assisted suicide drugs

cryonics assisted suicide drugs

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#1 MaximilianKohler

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 02:57 PM


There are multiple states now where assisted dying is legal: https://en.wikipedia...e_United_States

 

I'm wondering about the drugs they give. Would they be harmful to cryonicists? Are there better alternatives?

 

One of the CI magazines had this recommendation to use barbiturates: https://www.reddit.c..._the_latest_ci/ - but they didn't specify which one(s) or what dose.

 

I heard helium gas was used once. I don't know the downsides of that or how easy it is to obtain.

 

I know that even where assisted suicide is legal you need a 6 month terminal diagnosis, which could be hard to come by considering the extensive limitations of current mainstream medicine. So a person might need to procure their own means in many cases.



#2 cocoonman

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 10:35 PM

There is a book The Peaceful Pill Handbook that covers many available methods of self-euthanasia. Of course, suicide and cryonics don't mix. They will autopsy you and ruin all chances for preservation.



#3 coinperson

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 11:09 PM

I actually watched a documentary on this very subject.  It was from the book "Final Exit"  https://www.amazon.c...13033443&sr=1-1

While I can't promote suicide, there is so much to live for unless you are in conic pain, the documentary talked about using helium. 

there is also the Final exit network that will assist you to end your life if you are terminally ill.  http://www.finalexitnetwork.org/

 



#4 MaximilianKohler

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 09:29 AM

There are places like California where you can object to autopsy. http://codes.findlaw...t-27491-43.html - though on Alcor's website they say that for suicide they might still autopsy you, even if you were to use the assisted suicide legal route. Would have to confirm this with a local California mortician.

 

Thank you for those links coinperson.



#5 MaximilianKohler

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 04:17 PM

Some discussion on this here: https://archive.is/yQ2xT - but no real determination.
 
So I was able to do some reading & watching on this and it seems the prescribed drugs ARE barbiturates. So the main question then is: Is self starvation significantly more harmful to a cryo patient vs barbiturates? From the link above it seems helium gas is one of the worse options, but is it worse than self starvation?
 
I imagine one of the most important factors would be having a nurse or other aid on hand to declare death and put you on ice immediately after the heart stops, so whichever method would allow for this would be the best one? For example, a person might be able to travel/move to an autopsy-objection state, hire a nurse (~$10/hr), and then proceed with either suicide or self starvation. But if someone couldn't make it to an autopsy-objection state then their only option would be self starvation.
 
One benefit of helium gas seems to be the ease of obtaining it, along with the quickness of it, so you could certainly time your death this way, and thus you might be able to reduce delays, if you can avoid autopsy that is.
 
Someone reminded me that the Alcor case I was thinking of was the "Dora Kent case" https://en.wikipedia.../wiki/Dora_Kent - http://alcor.org/Lib...raKentCase.html - http://alcor.org/Lib...l/dorakent.html - I had in mind that there was controversy over "quickening her starvation death via drugs", and thus I was under the impression that drugs were preferable to starvation. I don't know if this is correct.
 
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Below is the info I found in case anyone else finds use of it:

Final Exit Network - Suicide assistance: http://www.finalexit...e-Services.html "We do not put an artificial requirement for an individual to be certified as likely to die in six months." http://www.finalexit...html#anchor_226
Book: https://www.amazon.c...d/dp/0385336535

Frontline documentary - 2013 The Suicide Plan: https://www.pbs.org/...m/suicide-plan/ - https://www.youtube....h?v=dcQkJtpZPHc

Compassion and Choices (advice organization from The Suicide Plan documentary): https://www.compassi...e/#our-programs
Documentary talks about them having a "highly confidential document" that gives instructions on how to end one's own life with medication. 10:50 minutes in.
End of life info center: https://www.compassi...oices.org/eolc/
Consultation: https://www.compassi...c-consultation/

~24:00 minutes in they talk about leaving the book "The final exit" by the bedside to notify the authorities that it was on purpose. Mentions Nembutal being effective ~31:30. Says they got 2 helium tanks from "Party City".

~40:00 covers Final Exit Network. Their method is helium gas.

---

Frontline documentary - The suicide tourist: https://www.pbs.org/...suicidetourist/

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FASTING: A Peaceful Way to Avoid a Prolonged Dying with Pain and Suffering https://www.youtube....h?v=wtD8O_uptt0 - if you refuse both food and water at the same time it's peaceful and ends in 2 weeks.
Uses: Oasis mouth spray/wash. Not recommended to use water-based fluids on a sponge. Biotin dry mouth toothpaste. Aquaphor/Vaseline on lips. Eye drops. Triad or MecKesson Lemon Glycerin Swabstick for mouth. Biotene or Spry dry mouth gum.
http://thirstcontrol.com/


Drugs & dosages:
https://www.medscape...rticle/742070_3
https://archive.is/o7aYX
Secobarbital  (Seconal), Pentobarbital (Nembutal). 9 g of secobarbital in capsules or 10 g of pentobarbital liquid.
Take an antiemetic (e.g., metoclopramide) about one hour before ingesting the barbiturate to prevent nausea and vomiting.

Secobarbital  (Seconal), Pentobarbital (Nembutal) http://www.slate.com...tna-merger.html

2017 Summary of Drugs Used for Doctor-Prescribed Suicide:
http://www.patientsr...cribed-suicide/
https://archive.is/OfLz8

Lists a number of alternatives due to increase in cost of Seconal:
https://www.deathwithdignity.org/faqs/
https://web.archive....gnity.org/faqs/
Due to the increase in the cost of Seconal, alternate mixtures of medications has been developed by physicians in Washington state. The phenobarbital/chloral hydrate/morphine sulfate mix produces a lethal dose that is similar in effect to Seconal. The cost of this alternate mix is approximately $450 to $500. A second alternative, consisting of morphine sulfate, Propranolol (Inderal), Diazepam (Valium), Digoxin and a buffer suspension costs about $600. A compounding pharmacy will need to prepare each mixture.

 



#6 YOLF

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 02:30 AM

There is a book The Peaceful Pill Handbook that covers many available methods of self-euthanasia. Of course, suicide and cryonics don't mix. They will autopsy you and ruin all chances for preservation.

You could stream it live to youtube so there would be no question as to how it happened... I'm not sure how well the religious objection to autopsy actually would work, but it does exist. 


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#7 YOLF

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 02:32 AM

Helium is available at party stores for blowing up balloons. Comes in a container that is roughly similar to a propane tank, but red and a bit lighter grade. Runs ~$50.


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#8 YOLF

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 02:41 AM

What about inducing sudden cardiac arrest? Seems there are plenty of things that could do this, yet the heart could still be pumped after legal death for the circulation of cryoprotectant. Timing would be somewhat unpredictable.



#9 cocoonman

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 01:24 PM

Some believe that peaceful death would require expensive or illegal drugs, euthanasia cocktails, traveling abroad, etc., but it is surprisingly easy to die painlessly by one's own hand. Helium is one example, but any gas can be used that is not CO2. Argon and nitrogen are available from welding supplies, but even the ordinary cooking propane or methane would do (of course, while taking care to avoid any large build up of gas). For a clandestine operation where legality isn't an issue, one could manufacture diethyl ether or chloroform, or administer a large quantity of nitrous oxide for inhalation, and then immediately perform blood washout and perfusion (while heart is still beating).

 

Having said that, I think that cryonics providers would strongly discourage such heroic feats of individualism. Any form of suicide, even by fasting, unless the patient is in a strictly terminal stage, would cause trouble. Legal requirements must be met, and it is best to check directly with cryonicists, as they have by now encountered almost every possible scenario.


Edited by cocoonman, 13 December 2017 - 01:25 PM.

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#10 MaximilianKohler

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 06:55 PM

What about inducing sudden cardiac arrest? Seems there are plenty of things that could do this, yet the heart could still be pumped after legal death for the circulation of cryoprotectant. Timing would be somewhat unpredictable.

I'm not sure what methods you would be thinking of.

 

 

 

 Legal requirements must be met, and it is best to check directly with cryonicists, as they have by now encountered almost every possible scenario.

I've been trying to do that. Cryonics Institute has so far not given any advice. There are many knowledgeable cryonicists on the New_Cryonet yahoo group but so far none have given advice...



#11 YOLF

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 09:44 PM

Suicide is taboo among cryonicists, they are afraid of the legal ramifications and claim that they will not accept patients who suicide. Personally, I think it's a matter of activism. Die to prevent the suffering of others and get another life (hopefully).



#12 MaximilianKohler

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 02:28 PM

UPDATE:

In a major blow to any plans, I just received word from CI that "CI's lawyer's advice has been to revoke the memberships of anyone actively planning suicide". Despite having posted this https://archive.is/bItyO in their newsletter...

 

So it seems the only option is to continually suffer more and more brain damage (from disease) to the point where there may be nothing left to preserve.

 
-
 
Since Mike Darwin is one of the most knowledgeable and active people in cryonics I thought to do a google search for "mike darwin dehydration" to try and understand the effects of refusing food and water for a cryo patient, and I found some very relevant links:
 
 
 

These are extremely relevant to my personal condition, and to other recent cryonicists' that I've seen recently.

 

I guess since those were posted years back I should call the Michigan, Phoenix, and California Medical Examiner's offices to see if refusing food and water with nurse supervision would result in autopsy. Then might have to contact lawyers for each of those places as well, to see if they can be of any help.



#13 cocoonman

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 10:28 PM

Good research. It is very unfortunate that you might be facing such prognosis. Many cryonicists have deanimated after losing much of their cognitive function/ memories, and it is uncertain how much could be recovered by future technology. This is quite disheartening, and I think one of the biggest problems in cryonics right now. If you can't get a good suspension, why bother?

 

Judging by the articles, it seems that suicide by dehydration would be basically a gamble in the US. Present establishments don't care about brain preservation or even quality of remaining life, only of how long one is expected to survive on standard treatments. If you cut this time short, they do the autopsy.

 

I suggest that if you can't find a legal solution, try to supplement your preservation with a sufficiently rich mindfile. Cryonicists have already talked about this, as a means of filling in the "gaps" in memories left by imperfect suspension. It could be like an "informational skeleton" to aid the neural archeology of the future. Since I don't believe I will have cryonics available, I am pursuing this and the other methods as standalone diy-biostasis, and I have written about it here.



#14 YOLF

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 01:41 AM

 

UPDATE:

In a major blow to any plans, I just received word from CI that "CI's lawyer's advice has been to revoke the memberships of anyone actively planning suicide". Despite having posted this https://archive.is/bItyO in their newsletter...

 

So it seems the only option is to continually suffer more and more brain damage (from disease) to the point where there may be nothing left to preserve.

 
-
 
Since Mike Darwin is one of the most knowledgeable and active people in cryonics I thought to do a google search for "mike darwin dehydration" to try and understand the effects of refusing food and water for a cryo patient, and I found some very relevant links:
 
 
 

These are extremely relevant to my personal condition, and to other recent cryonicists' that I've seen recently.

 

I guess since those were posted years back I should call the Michigan, Phoenix, and California Medical Examiner's offices to see if refusing food and water with nurse supervision would result in autopsy. Then might have to contact lawyers for each of those places as well, to see if they can be of any help.

 

Having such a policy for a self preservation tactic makes me doubt the validity of cryonics on alot of levels. It only makes sense to make the trip into the future as painless and damage free as possible and they should be raising money to lawyer up to the challenge of providing painless cryonics... otherwise you're actually going to die several times after legal death as the process goes on. Have we been able to ask people what it feels like to be perfused at very cold temperatures while having you're heart and other systems stimulated? The cryoprotectant is made of at least some sugar... it must be one hell of a slow, repetitive, and increasingly painful (not)death. I figure I'm young enough and have enough power over aging at this point not to have to worry about it, but it does scare me to think of it being my final end in such pain. I think if it's going to be that painful with that many lapses into death, I might cancel my plans on my own when I get older... I guess I'm on the fence, I'd rather just keep learning and kick aging's ass on my own if I have to. Maybe it's better this way.



#15 YOLF

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 01:47 AM

Good research. It is very unfortunate that you might be facing such prognosis. Many cryonicists have deanimated after losing much of their cognitive function/ memories, and it is uncertain how much could be recovered by future technology. This is quite disheartening, and I think one of the biggest problems in cryonics right now. If you can't get a good suspension, why bother?

 

Judging by the articles, it seems that suicide by dehydration would be basically a gamble in the US. Present establishments don't care about brain preservation or even quality of remaining life, only of how long one is expected to survive on standard treatments. If you cut this time short, they do the autopsy.

 

I suggest that if you can't find a legal solution, try to supplement your preservation with a sufficiently rich mindfile. Cryonicists have already talked about this, as a means of filling in the "gaps" in memories left by imperfect suspension. It could be like an "informational skeleton" to aid the neural archeology of the future. Since I don't believe I will have cryonics available, I am pursuing this and the other methods as standalone diy-biostasis, and I have written about it here.

Idk, I think 100 or do years will be nothing once one has lived for 100s of times as long. A few missing memories wouldn't be overly problematic to me. I don't need to be at 100%, as long as my body is sustainable and I can still learn at the rate I did when I was in my late teens and early twenties. I still wouldn't want total brain rot from AD though. But if I'd rather be a blank with amnesia with thousands of years of youth to live than not exist at all.



#16 cocoonman

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 06:36 PM

Have we been able to ask people what it feels like to be perfused at very cold temperatures while having you're heart and other systems stimulated? The cryoprotectant is made of at least some sugar..

 

 

I think the rapid cooling would make conscious neural activity unlikely, or very faint. They usually administer propofol to prevent accidental awakening during CPS and perfusion.
 

 

Idk, I think 100 or do years will be nothing once one has lived for 100s of times as long. A few missing memories wouldn't be overly problematic to me. I don't need to be at 100%, as long as my body is sustainable and I can still learn at the rate I did when I was in my late teens and early twenties. I still wouldn't want total brain rot from AD though. But if I'd rather be a blank with amnesia with thousands of years of youth to live than not exist at all.

 

 

I agree. I care only about a basic pattern of the things I value or love, the gaps in details may be filled in. If someone with ideas, beliefs and desires very similar to mine gets constructed from my remains in the future, and given a chance for much better life, then he would be my rightful continuer. Besides, you can't "experience" memory change. You can't tell if your imagined life-history is real or virtual, although it always feels real to you.



#17 caliban

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 11:50 AM

"CI's lawyer's advice has been to revoke the memberships of anyone actively planning suicide". 

 

 

 

This is very disconcerting! 

 

Can you (or any CI members in the know) share details of this policy and the legal advice behind it please? 

   



#18 MaximilianKohler

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 03:29 PM

 

"CI's lawyer's advice has been to revoke the memberships of anyone actively planning suicide". 

 

 

 

This is very disconcerting! 

 

Can you (or any CI members in the know) share details of this policy and the legal advice behind it please? 

 

 

They are very short on words regarding anything to do with this. You might have to contact them directly. They did not say whether refusing food and water (which is legal) would be accepted or not. It seems they generally just want to avoid any bad press coverage that may threaten the lives of existing frozen members.

 

I think they understand the predicament their members are in, but they want to avoid: "open CI up to lawsuits and criminal prosecution".
 

Even physician assisted suicide (and suicide itself) is still quite controversial and only available in a few states/countries. Since cryonics isn't really main stream yet, and have run into issues in the past, it seems like they want to avoid being part of anything controversial like that still.

 

I think if anyone brings this up here (or elsewhere) in the future they should be warned to do it anonymously, or to not state they're doing it themselves.


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#19 YOLF

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 12:23 AM

 

Have we been able to ask people what it feels like to be perfused at very cold temperatures while having you're heart and other systems stimulated? The cryoprotectant is made of at least some sugar..

 

 

I think the rapid cooling would make conscious neural activity unlikely, or very faint. They usually administer propofol to prevent accidental awakening during CPS and perfusion.
 

 

Idk, I think 100 or do years will be nothing once one has lived for 100s of times as long. A few missing memories wouldn't be overly problematic to me. I don't need to be at 100%, as long as my body is sustainable and I can still learn at the rate I did when I was in my late teens and early twenties. I still wouldn't want total brain rot from AD though. But if I'd rather be a blank with amnesia with thousands of years of youth to live than not exist at all.

 

 

I agree. I care only about a basic pattern of the things I value or love, the gaps in details may be filled in. If someone with ideas, beliefs and desires very similar to mine gets constructed from my remains in the future, and given a chance for much better life, then he would be my rightful continuer. Besides, you can't "experience" memory change. You can't tell if your imagined life-history is real or virtual, although it always feels real to you.

 

B/c the body or head is you, it IS still you. Just an amnesiac version of you that will have been improved and cured of various ills. It's complicated... Though I guess if you implant false memories, that would make it someone else or some kind of twin oslt... I wouldn't want to have things made up... just left empty. We forget things all the time. This would just be more substantial, yet more insignificant too as time will have passed and the world will be new. The experience of newness that comes from entering that new world 200-300 years from now in a unique position sounds fun.



#20 MaximilianKohler

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 08:57 PM

I made some calls, got a bunch more info, all documented here with steps: https://archive.is/bGhNY







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