11 replies to this topic

[Mind_Paralysis]

YEAH!

Finally had a look at Prof. Barkley's latest update on SCT, and there is indeed some new data, regarding the Default Mode Network... there is implication that this is involved in the disorder - and it makes sense, the DMN's biggest region actually borders the SPL - Superior Parietal Lobe, the only brain-region so far to have neuro-imaging data implying alterations to its activity.

 

https://en.wikipedia...lt_mode_network

 

The fact that ASD is also co-morbid with SCT is also interesting, since alterations within the DMN have been noted in ASD as well... it would, however, considering what the different regions actually do, seem to be somewhat different regions showing abnormalities.

 

Excessive Mind Wandering, something seen very often within individuals susceptible to depression, is also highly similar to the type of "day-dreaming" or "over-thinking" which individuals with SCT display - SCT has now also finally been proven to be more correlated to depression than ADHD is - more SCT-ers are depressed than ADHD-ers.

 

https://en.wikipedia.../Mind-wandering

 

This does indeed imply that the Default Mode Network is connected to the symptoms of SCT... Now then, here's the big question - Dr. Barkley has, in the past, mentioned how he thinks there might be some benefit to get from serotonergic drugs, since they help with other disorders (depression) connected to Mind Wandering - so, which antidepressants show the greatest amount of modulation of activity in the DMN?

 

If I've got it right btw, then SCT would, like anxious rumination and negative depressive mind wandering, be connected to an OVERLY active and too well-connected DMN - it shouldn't be turning on as often as it does - it's not necessary to day-dream, zone out and over-think every single thing as much as us SCT-ers do!

 

 

So... which drugs alter the DMN? And which SSRI's have the greatest effect on Mind Wandering? What makes you less prone to creating random thoughts regarding the things the DMN help you control?

Paroxetine? Fluoxetine?

 

 

 

EDIT: I see that there are references to hallucinogenics, such as LSD and Psilocybin, serotonergic ones, also altering activity in the DMN... I am ill eager to test such substances, but if the evidence is strong... possibly I might look into non-hallucinogenic or lower-potency agonists here - allowing for more control. The fact that stimulants and NRI's have some effect on both mine and others symptoms, as well as evidence that SNRI's like Duloxetine alters activity in the DMN as well, does imply that possibly we are talking about a Serotonin/Norepinephrine axis here, compared to the Dopamine/Norepinephrine axis of ADHD.

 

References:

-----------------

Antidepressants Normalize the Default Mode Network in Patients With Dysthymia

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3935731/

 

(dysthymia is more similar to SCT than regular depression - could there be a connection? The fact that the drug in question is an SNRI, Duloxetine, which is also effective for anxiety, is also intriguing)

 

 

Validation of the Mind Excessively Wandering Scale and the Relationship of Mind Wandering to Impairment in Adult ADHD.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/27255536

(the above study concerns adhd and mind wandering, but as we all know, research on both ADHD and SCT is sadly corrupted and confused to an immense extent - as such, this might be used as an argument for mind wandering in SCT as well)

 

Where the depressed mind wanders: Self-generated thought patterns as assessed through experience sampling as a state marker of depression

http://www.sciencedi...165032715313914

 

The Other Attention Disorder: Sluggish Cognitive Tempo vs. ADHD - CHADD 2017

http://www.chadd.org...ell Barkley.pdf

 

 

Edited by Stinkorninjor, 29 December 2017 - 06:56 PM.

[jack black]

good stuff! it'll take me days to digest the info and make sense of it.

[Mind_Paralysis]

good stuff! it'll take me days to digest the info and make sense of it.

 

So glad to see you notice the post, Jack! = D I'm eagerly looking forward to your analysis of this one - I considered PM-ing you, but I couldn't find the strength through the SCT-brainfog to actually do it!

 

Especially curious to see what you think about the various drugs which have been reported to alter activity in this part of the brain - LSD and other serotonin-agonists in particular.
 

[jack black]

I looked into this closer (was not really familiar with DMN), and it looks like a huge thing for ASD as there is some evidence of defective, under-active DMN: http://www.sciencedi...451902217300885

on the other hand, DMN is hyperactive in ADHD: https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5167011/

 

looks like 2 different extremes.

are ADHD types more social? I really don't know.

also, autiobiografic memory sucks in ASD. is it enhanced in ADHD?

 

as for the certain "serotonin-agonists" agents, while interesting experience, not therapeutic in ASD for sure.

Edited by jack black, 02 January 2018 - 11:03 PM.

[jack black]

now that I gave it more thought, the ADHD types in my family and friends do appear quite social, possibly above average, obviously better than the ASD types. I don't know about SCT, as I don't have a good grasp of that. 

 

the reason I talk about it, DMN is responsible for social skills and autobiographical memory, maybe this is why ADHD trait persists so strongly in our society.

 

if ASD is the opposite, that would explain why we have the pathologic hyper focus/ hyper analytical skills and again, this trait is useful for society. unfortunately, too much good thing is bad (severely impaired autistics). 

 

anyone with insights into autobiographic memory in ADHD? we all know it's poor in ASD.

Edited by jack black, 03 January 2018 - 02:42 PM.

[RegainBrain]

Sorry for posting here, since I have non existent knowledge about what you are talking.

 

I think that I have SCT, but I'm not sure (thanks to @Mind_Paralysis !)

 

I switched from methylphenidate to dexamphetamine, because the methylphenidate caused strong physical side effects after a while (I can't take anything over 12,5mg at once).

At the beginning, it worked like a life changer...it literally was a gift from god...I never felt that quitness in my head, I never was so aware and in contact with my environment. I could do sth and concentrate, when I wanted it...I had more controll over myself. But after 3 months, side effects setted in, which wasn't there before. The side effects caused my overall sluggish condition I now have and that's why I'm not really sure, if I have SCT or not...because naturally, I'm really fast or too fast, but with a inability to learn sth in long term due my fastness...

The main side effects was: exhaustion (mentally and physically, lost of energy [in general] and lost of energy to think [I was getting very lazy and depressed and lethargic]).

I thought that the levo-methylphenidate was responsible for the physical exhaustion (I was exhausted, but there was no cardiovascular side effects...the opposite...my blood pressure was lowered after ritalin intake). For this reason, I tried to source Focalin, which contains only dexmethylphenidate. Unfortunately, this isn't avaible in my country.

 

For this reason, I switched directly to dexamphetamine and now, I have really NO physical side effects. I found ritalin more effective in term of drive, because after dexamphetamine, I can literally sleep...it really makes me tired, especially, when dosed to high. On the other hand, it doesn't hinder or slows down my thinking speed, which ritalin sometimes did.

Dexamphetamine feels more "free" for me, while ritalin forces to concentrate on sth...

 

But here the question:

I don't want to take SSRI's, which alternatives do you recommend for SCT? Are they dietary supplements or nootropics/research drugs, which are good for my condition?

 

PS: My doctor would prescribe me anything I want, but I want to take sth more "controllable" in term of short-acting. I don't have enough effort/time to experiment with atomoxetine and ssri's for weeks, I want sth fast acting...maybe later, I will investige SSRI's and atomoxetine.

[Mind_Paralysis]

Sorry for posting here, since I have non existent knowledge about what you are talking.

 

I think that I have SCT, but I'm not sure (thanks to @Mind_Paralysis !)

 

I switched from methylphenidate to dexamphetamine, because the methylphenidate caused strong physical side effects after a while (I can't take anything over 12,5mg at once).

At the beginning, it worked like a life changer...it literally was a gift from god...I never felt that quitness in my head, I never was so aware and in contact with my environment. I could do sth and concentrate, when I wanted it...I had more controll over myself. But after 3 months, side effects setted in, which wasn't there before. The side effects caused my overall sluggish condition I now have and that's why I'm not really sure, if I have SCT or not...because naturally, I'm really fast or too fast, but with a inability to learn sth in long term due my fastness...

The main side effects was: exhaustion (mentally and physically, lost of energy [in general] and lost of energy to think [I was getting very lazy and depressed and lethargic]).

I thought that the levo-methylphenidate was responsible for the physical exhaustion (I was exhausted, but there was no cardiovascular side effects...the opposite...my blood pressure was lowered after ritalin intake). For this reason, I tried to source Focalin, which contains only dexmethylphenidate. Unfortunately, this isn't avaible in my country.

 

For this reason, I switched directly to dexamphetamine and now, I have really NO physical side effects. I found ritalin more effective in term of drive, because after dexamphetamine, I can literally sleep...it really makes me tired, especially, when dosed to high. On the other hand, it doesn't hinder or slows down my thinking speed, which ritalin sometimes did.

Dexamphetamine feels more "free" for me, while ritalin forces to concentrate on sth...

 

But here the question:

I don't want to take SSRI's, which alternatives do you recommend for SCT? Are they dietary supplements or nootropics/research drugs, which are good for my condition?

 

PS: My doctor would prescribe me anything I want, but I want to take sth more "controllable" in term of short-acting. I don't have enough effort/time to experiment with atomoxetine and ssri's for weeks, I want sth fast acting...maybe later, I will investige SSRI's and atomoxetine.

 

Hey! I'm glad to see that someone else that might be potentially afflicted with the disease could find this info helpful. = )

 

Now, on to your questions... There is no research on what is really better here - only some hypothesis about the fact that since the posterior networks which have recently been linked to the disease have a lot of Norepinephrinergic activity - and since stimulants help a little bit, but not a lot, and since they are selective towards NE when used in smaller dosages... then Norepinephrine could then be more involved then dopamine.

 

But that's just a hypothesis - it's not really proven, so it's very hard to say what's better. Most people whom have had at least semi-successful results with medication, all seem to be on MULTIPLE drugs at the same time.

 

Also, FORGET your idea about finding something to trial quickly and then move on - you're going to have to bucker down for the long run here, and try multiple drugs under a long time - if you really have SCT-symptoms, then this is the experience for almost everyone I have talked to - it takes time to find a good regimen, and some have indeed found it with drugs which take a long time to start working.

 

See it as an investment - if you find relief, then a whole new life will start, one where you'll have all the time in the world to fix up all that stuff that seems important/pressuring to get done now - but in the long run, until you have cracked your symptoms... they are irrelevant and POINTLESS - the disease is everything that counts now, if you can't beat it, then that other stuff doesn't mean jack sh*t.

 

 

For what it's worth, I, and multiple others with SCT-symptoms, have used SSRI's without any issues - they don't really seem to help much, but they don't seem to hurt much either. Some do report that they interfere with stimulants though.

 

If you want a quick antidepressant to try, then I suggest TIANEPTINE *SODIUM* - the Sulfate-form doesn't have the same strong antidepressant properties. Tianeptine can be started and discontinued very quickly.

 

If you want my suggestion, then I think combining Dextroamphetamine with MILNACIPRAN could be an interesting experiment - it's a balanced SNRI - the first ever, meaning that it does affect Norepinephrine to a greater extent than previous ones, like Venlafaxine and Duloxetine.

As luck has it, Milnacipran is available in Germany!

 

https://www.gelbe-li...tkapseln_951040

 

It also seems to cause less sedation as a side-effect, compared to Atomoxetine, so that might make it a better bet in that regard. (many of those of us with SCT-symptoms, find ATX to cause tremendous sedation, making any improvements null and void)

 

If you want something that is quicker to trial, then there's GUANFACINE - it generally is faster to add in, and to discontinue, than Milnacipran - it does need a bit of titrating and a bit of discontinuing, to make sure you don't get elevated blood-pressure when you discontinue it. I've talked to one guy whom thought it was a good combo with Dexamphetamine - GetoutofBox whom used to post on this forum.

 

https://www.gelbe-li...abletten_915487

 

Personally, I didn't find it very useful, but that might not mean much.

[John250]

What about an SSRE vs an SSRI?

[John250]

Found the sodium version

https://maresearchch...neptine-sodium/

They also have fluorinated modafinil which I’ve never heard of

https://maresearchch...ated-modafinil/

Edited by John250, 11 June 2018 - 06:31 PM.

[RegainBrain]

 

Thank you, I will keep that in mind!

 

Since you have SCT, I have a question to you:

When I take my small dosage of 5mg methylphenidate IR and when I crash after ~4 hours, only then I notice a improvement in my speed and concentration.

In this context, I made another observation:

Every time, when I have a bad day/time, there are typically 3 phasis:

1.Phasis: Something triggers me, I get depressed

2.Phasis: Pure depression with doing nothing.

3.Phasis: Slight aggression, I want to change something and get out of the depression phasis or I want to solve the problem

 

I notice every single time that I do perform at my best, when I am in the 3.Phasis. The mood in the 3.Phasis is somekind of depression, but with a slight agitation. This agitation is pure agitation, without motivation (to change sth). Nevertheless, THIS AGITATION allows me, to get access to my full cognitive abilites. In this period, I'm better in aim-oriented, fast and complex thinking. I don't realise it directly, when my abilites are elevated, only afterwards I do notice that I had these elevated abilites/access to abilites, which are already there.

 

So, too keep it short: I have only full access to my abilites, when I'm in a slight depressed and agitated mood...

 

I think, this is somehow related to the amount and proportion of the neurotransmitters:

 

I do not know much about SCT, but as I could read in the internet, SCT may be a problem of TOO MUCH dopamine.

Maybe, the crash of ritalin simulated the neurotransmitter proportion of the 3.Phase: Less dopamine.

Could less dopamine be the reason for my elevated abilites?

 

If yes:

As you can think, I don't want to be depressed and agitated, to get acces to my full potential...

Are there other way's?

 

Does your discussion about this whole serotonine thing correlate with the regulation of dopamine?

 

I respect that you guys here are more educated in this thematic than me and that you are discussing in a whole different level than me.

So, I don't expect that you are explaining me all the thing when you answer. I'm satisfied with a short evaluation of my thoughts .

[Mind_Paralysis]

Thank you, I will keep that in mind!

 

Since you have SCT, I have a question to you:

When I take my small dosage of 5mg methylphenidate IR and when I crash after ~4 hours, only then I notice a improvement in my speed and concentration.

In this context, I made another observation:

Every time, when I have a bad day/time, there are typically 3 phasis:

1.Phasis: Something triggers me, I get depressed

2.Phasis: Pure depression with doing nothing.

3.Phasis: Slight aggression, I want to change something and get out of the depression phasis or I want to solve the problem

 

I notice every single time that I do perform at my best, when I am in the 3.Phasis. The mood in the 3.Phasis is somekind of depression, but with a slight agitation. This agitation is pure agitation, without motivation (to change sth). Nevertheless, THIS AGITATION allows me, to get access to my full cognitive abilites. In this period, I'm better in aim-oriented, fast and complex thinking. I don't realise it directly, when my abilites are elevated, only afterwards I do notice that I had these elevated abilites/access to abilites, which are already there.

 

So, too keep it short: I have only full access to my abilites, when I'm in a slight depressed and agitated mood...

 

I think, this is somehow related to the amount and proportion of the neurotransmitters:

 

I do not know much about SCT, but as I could read in the internet, SCT may be a problem of TOO MUCH dopamine.

Maybe, the crash of ritalin simulated the neurotransmitter proportion of the 3.Phase: Less dopamine.

Could less dopamine be the reason for my elevated abilites?

 

If yes:

As you can think, I don't want to be depressed and agitated, to get acces to my full potential...

Are there other way's?

 

Does your discussion about this whole serotonine thing correlate with the regulation of dopamine?

 

I respect that you guys here are more educated in this thematic than me and that you are discussing in a whole different level than me.

So, I don't expect that you are explaining me all the thing when you answer. I'm satisfied with a short evaluation of my thoughts .

 

You describe it fairly well - my cycles of activity are similar - there's also a rather bad, more long-term side of this though - because the same cycle also feeds a dark cycle of:

1. Anxiety

2. Depressive symptoms

3. OCD - the last part can be very problematic.

 

Only when I am in certain... "variations" on stage 3 do I not have any of the other issues - when I am the most functional, I also feel the best.

 

My current situation is as problematic as it is, because I kept trying to trigger stage 3 - to take it further and further, to gain traction in life. This did not work out, and the end result, from triggering more and more stress, to trigger more activity, was BURNOUT!

 

Be very, very careful about how and when stage 3 is triggered... you don't want it to be triggered by immense stress, nor do you want to have it trigger from PROLONGED attempts to trigger it, consciously - I used to get myself incredibly enraged - fighting against the "brain-fog" to the extent that I was paralyzed in bed, seemingly, but I was tensing my entire body, my face turning red, as I internally was building up "steam" to the point that I could actually complete various tasks.

Don't do that.

 

Never, ever fight stage 2 - at least not in this way - you need a clear plan, complex CBT perhaps, to actually fight "brain-fog" (the tired, confused, lethargic state where you can't do anything).

 

 

Not sure where you heard about too much dopamine though? Not something I've heard about. Do you have a link or some such? Would be interesting to see whom was talking about such symptoms and excessive dopamine-signalling.

 

From what I have seen studied regarding the disease, this is not something that's currently being considered - rather, the biggest focus so far has been in the idea that there's a deficit in NORADRENERGIC signalling - as you can tell from the name, Noradrenaline/Norepinephrine is a neurotransmitter that's released when in times of stress (not the same thing as adrenaline, it's more similar to dopamine,actually) - but that's far from all it does, it actually also helps with alertness, and general cognitive function, possibly with reaction-time as well.

 

I.e, some of the things that SCT-ers seem to have issues with - however, since medication that affect Noradrenaline doesn't appear to be a magic bullet for the symptoms, it's not clear how accurate this theory is.

 

 

If you are interested in learning more about the disease, from the man who knows the most, then I suggest this recent lecture from Professor Russell Barkley:

 

https://ess.echo360....bb-0fda7ebb0a9d

https://ess.echo360....b0a9d/media.m4v

 

(same lecture in both files, but different formats)

 

 

In closing: the only other way I have been able to sometimes trigger stage 3, is with team-work - when I am in a team-setting, and we are working towards a common goal, and the goal is something that is positive for me as well, the third stage can sometimes trigger - it's as if I can help others with their plans and problems, but not DIRECTLY with my own.

As such, a method, which I'm planning to try myself, is to perhaps find OTHER disabled friends, which I can then become "Activity"-partners, and "Accountability-partners" with - in essence, perhaps living together and working together - or at the very least, in a daily, close contact regarding goals and activities.

 

I recommend trying to join a local ADHD-group, and try to find someone with similar symptoms - perhaps, if there is chemistry, you can plan together various things you can help each other with, in order to use your activity better?

 

 

That's all I've got...

 

 

Oh, and yes, there might be something to the idea of Serotonin having to do with the disease - check the lecture for info on that. Drugs that help with "mind wandering" and "compulsive" thoughts could perhaps have an effect - OCD, PTSD, Anxiety and Depression are all more commonly diagnosed with SCT-ers and the attention-deficit those disorders cause, are apparently all more similar to SCT's deficit than they are to ADHD.

[RegainBrain]

Thanks, I could read out many similarities between us.

 

 

Not sure where you heard about too much dopamine though? Not something I've heard about. Do you have a link or some such? Would be interesting to see whom was talking about such symptoms and excessive dopamine-signalling.

 

 

I will add a source tomorrow.

 

I have one completely different question:

 

Is phenibut interesting for SCT?

 

 

I used phenibut severel times now for other reason, but I could realize that it was improving some of my symptoms to a high degree:

• Brainfog was lessend. It feels like the first time on ritalin, everything clearly.
• My inner unrest was reduced

Especially the last point is interesting me:

 

Since I think that I could have SCT, I don't feel slow and I never am called slow by others. On the other side, my IQ-testings showed a difference between processing speed and the other qualities (I did many IQ-testing and my IQ is in the upper spectrum [~127]. I had varying results, everything was there from 100 to 135). My processing speed was most of the time ~20 points lesser. 

 

What I feel is the difficulty to make fast decisions, because I overthink things (honestly, I don't think that you can overthink anything and that it is a problem...but when you are in school etc., than this can be problem...because nobody want's you, just sit still and learn).

My problem solving is mostly slow, but complex and "right" (that sounded ridiculously arrogant...).

 

Until here, there is no real problem...for me the problem is that I only can "overthink". I can't tell my mind to set priorities and to look for the fastest solution/problem-solving (or the solution, which is expected by for example the teacher).

I rather feel overwhelmed by the many options/variations than slow speed...actually, I must have superior speed to be able to scan through all options.

 

The problem is that my brain grows this way: not limitating on one think/ not having the priority to repeat one way again and again so I can be fast in it.

 

This is the point, were I have trouble to say: is this ADHD or SCT?

 

Due to the reduced dopamine signalling in ADHD, the brain structure is very "open" but not consolidated. Without strong connected nervepaths, every signal will be slowed down by surrounding paths/cellconstellation/whatever...to keep it short: you need more time.

 

This kind of thinking I have result in inner unrest and this inner unrest was reduced by phenibut, because it's acting as a GABA B-agonist, which (to my extend of knowledge/understanding) lowers the sensitivity of the pre- and postsynaptic cell. Actually, the amount of dopamine will be lowered?

 

I don't know, I just glanced over the wikipedia article and I don't have time yet, but:

 

It allows me to think faster, not really faster: I know exactly, what is wanted/needed for e.g. a problem. My thinking ways weren't disturbed by the huge variety and possibilites, I just could think straight forward - and the best - I could controll, what or how I think! It wasn't like with stimulants, were I felt that I was "limited"...phenibut feels more free: I wasn't restricted in my reasoning, with phenibut, I could keep my old thinking ways, I just had more freedom...when I wanted to think this way, there wasn't much noise from the other way's.

 

What do you think about GABA B-agonists like phenibut and my thoughts about me and SCT/ADHD?

 

Sorry for the long text and my english mistakes.