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Fasting for days to eliminate allergy permanently?

water fasting allergy

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#1 Believer

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 06:45 PM


I have heard this before but have never tried it and there isn't much I can find on Google regarding it.

I assume that the idea behind this is that immune cells or the proteins which are circulating in the blood and bind to allergenic chemicals will slowly be removed from the body during nutrient deficiencies/starvation.

Fasting has been touted as a way to kickstart the immune system in the elderly for the very fact of old defective immune cells being removed.

 

I want to give it a try but before that I want to hear if anyone has any input?

 

 



#2 xEva

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 10:55 AM

The best results in fasting is achieved after repeated rounds. This was shown by Longo on mice (their immune sys was "rebooted" after 5th or even 6th cycle -? But not before! look it up). Also, Russians in the 1970s treated serious diseases, like sarcoidosis and asthma,  with three  2-3weeks long fasts, with about 1-2 months break in between (but not much longer, that's important).

 

So, repeated fasts give best results. On the other hand, most people who get into fasting, as a rule, have the idea that one long fast, as long as they can manage, will fix whatever's wrong with them. Unless they are still pretty young (and thus can survive lotsa abuse) this plan usually backfires.

 

What I never saw fail was a regular once a week 36h fast. After 6 months there is a noticeable improvement and after a year  often it's gone (talking about chronic conditions that could not be helped at all).


Edited by xEva, 18 January 2018 - 10:56 AM.

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#3 sthira

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 01:12 PM

I don't have specific allergies that were healed by fasting because I don't have allergies in the first place. I'd say what you could try is to dip your foot into brief little short fasts and see where they take you. If fasting helps your allergies, you'll know. Not much clinical study has been done on fasting and its effects upon humans, so we're left to our own mostly clueless self experimentation.

I fast a lot. And watching Longo's research (and he just published an English language book) it's interesting to hear him now talk about gallbladder complications of frequent fasting.

xEva, you have more knowledge and expertise in fasting than I do, have you seen or read in Russian lit about gallbladder issues with frequent fasters?
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#4 xEva

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 02:11 PM

xEva, you have more knowledge and expertise in fasting than I do, have you seen or read in Russian lit about gallbladder issues with frequent fasters?

 

 

No, have not heard about gall bladder in regard to fasting. Care to elaborate?



#5 Believer

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 04:15 PM

The best results in fasting is achieved after repeated rounds. This was shown by Longo on mice (their immune sys was "rebooted" after 5th or even 6th cycle -? But not before! look it up). Also, Russians in the 1970s treated serious diseases, like sarcoidosis and asthma,  with three  2-3weeks long fasts, with about 1-2 months break in between (but not much longer, that's important).

But are these effects only to treat the symptoms of the disease or do they permanently cure the disease? For example I don't have asthma unless I inhale trichoderma or take the wrong supplements which can trigger it (vitamin D, vitamin C, AcetylCysteine, etc.).

 



#6 xEva

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 07:03 PM

 

The best results in fasting is achieved after repeated rounds. This was shown by Longo on mice (their immune sys was "rebooted" after 5th or even 6th cycle -? But not before! look it up). Also, Russians in the 1970s treated serious diseases, like sarcoidosis and asthma,  with three  2-3weeks long fasts, with about 1-2 months break in between (but not much longer, that's important).

But are these effects only to treat the symptoms of the disease or do they permanently cure the disease? For example I don't have asthma unless I inhale trichoderma or take the wrong supplements which can trigger it (vitamin D, vitamin C, AcetylCysteine, etc.).

 

 

 

-?? in my understanding,  when it comes to asthma and allergies, there is hardly any difference between symptoms and the disease. You want to know if you'll be cured permanently after a fast of some length. No one knows. Anecdotally, the outcomes range from improvement to permanent cure, probably depending on a wide set of initial variables. 

 

In any rate, you should start any fasting practice with once a week 24-36h 'hungry days' and take it from there.  It is generally recommended to have no less than 3 such days before going for a longer fast. 


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#7 Believer

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 08:29 PM

My issue is replenishing electrolytes as they fall too quickly in myself, maybe because I am larger and so have a larger requirement for them.

I know that you can get magnesium through the skin but what about potassium?

I have a fear that oral ingestion of potassium and magnesium, even if it is bulk powder instead of tablets or capsules with maltodextrin and gelatin fillers, that it will stop the fast for a short while.

 

What about calcium, phosphorus and "chloride"? Calcium taken alone without vitamin K2 can have some bad effects on me (calcium channel related) and phosphorus and chloride I am not sure about. I think the potassium chloride I have already gives me enough chloride.



#8 xEva

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 08:51 PM

1. you don't need any of that in the first days of a fast.  2. electrolytes are water soluble and best taken in solution, not capsules. . bottled mineral water is good, there are varieties. even if you take some capsules or supplements, generally this does not affect the fast. kcalories less than 10 hardly matter, other than that they can wake your appetite and so sabotage your fast. 

 

in any rate, if you experiencing such anxiety about going for a day without some salts then maybe fasting is not for you.

 

 

ps

you definitely don't take phosphorus on a fast. you don't need Cl either. Your most important electrolyte is Na and you know you need it when water starts tasting bad.  If you're concerned, you can taste various salts during the fast and if they taste nasty you don't need them. if they taste good, don't go overboard. 


Edited by xEva, 18 January 2018 - 09:04 PM.

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#9 sthira

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 09:29 PM

My issue is replenishing electrolytes as they fall too quickly in myself, maybe because I am larger and so have a larger requirement for them.


Much of beginning a fast -- if you've never done such a thing before -- is a mind fuck. It's more about challenging your personal psychology than your electrolyte stores. Fasting is about changing longterm habits. Try starting slowly and skipping meals -- elongate the time between feedings. Go for 12 hours without food, re-evaluate, take notes, see what happens, it's you you're working on, no one else, document your nutrition behavior so you know your RDA, which nutrients you're getting, which you're lacking, then try again, go for 16 hours without food, then maybe 20 hours, and so you're easing into this fasting thing.

I view fasting as a longterm lifestyle choice, and not a single bullet that'll quickly resolve all my woes. It might, it might not. Fasting's beneficial effects are accumulative, and one long fast here at your starting gate -- anything more than, say 24-hours -- might do more psychological harm than good. People freak out when they try too hard and extend fasting for too long, then they're repelled and call it dangerous. It's a mind fuck.

Also, the magic of fasting might not be the fasting itself as it is the refeeding after the fast, and the setting of longterm healthier nutrition habits.

All of this said to you assuming you're relatively healthy, have no serious diseases, and can handle it.

It'd be cool to have a little fasting community on this site -- we could support and encourage one another. Fasting isn't very popular, though. Keep in mind that so far we have no proven clinical interventions yet to slow, stop or reverse aging. So for now, calorie restriction with optimal nutrition, or fasting -- cutting longterm calories -- seem like safe bets. And at least they're free.

#10 Believer

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 11:33 PM

I have fasted many times before. Did it to lose weight and for other reasons.

I have now learned that vitamins can actually break a fast which I did not know before.

I have water fasted for 3 days but took vitamin pills which I assume now broke the fast (autophagy anyway).

Everytime I water fast even if I reduce my water consumption I get heart and blood pressure related side-effects from electrolyte deficiencies. For example standing up causes faintness for a long time as well as a racing heart rate.

Supplementing salt does not resolve it but potassium does. Headache and weakness in my body occurs from a magnesium deficiency when it gets worse.

I need very large dosages of potassium chloride and magnesium to resolve the deficiencies and then they return within a few hours again if I drink any water.

This is really the only issue I have with fasting. Avoiding eating food is easy so long as I drink water.



#11 sthira

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 02:09 AM

Have you tried fasting with Pedialyte? Pedialyte is a rehydration and electrolyte replacement drink available in your nearest drug store (it's usually given to ill children and dehydrated adults -- it's a less sugary version of Gatorade).

#12 xEva

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 02:33 AM

It sounds as if you're trying to compensate  Na deficiency with K and Mg.

but of course you know yourself better. This is just my take on what you wrote. 

 

IMO the reason you get worse after water, is because you need more Na -- water always washes it out. 

 
to me, the symptoms you list imply hypovolemia and that's why you feel faint when you get up. Hypovolemia also stresses heart, 'cause it has to pump harder to compensate. Drinking more water, without Na, will not restore the volume. To the contrary, it will wash away more Na. Then the body starts employing all kinds of hormonal/metabolic tricks trying to compensate.  Then it's better to reintroduce Na very gradually.

 

That you overload on K is misguided. K alone, in high doses, can cause heart irregularities that could even be fatal. (read on hyperkalemia) 

 

I think in your case it's best to fast dry, just sipping bits of water --or Pedialyte !-- from time to time, when you feel like it. Let your kidneys find the balance. Just follow your instincts, not "rules". Whatever you do, don't force yourself to drink.

 

 

Pedialyte sounds like a good idea


Edited by xEva, 19 January 2018 - 02:37 AM.

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#13 Believer

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Posted 18 March 2018 - 11:08 PM

I have now completed 2x3 day fast in a row. My goal is to do at least 4x consecutive 3 day fasts.

I have fasted for 3 days before but not so close to each other and continously like I am doing now.

 

I fasted for 3 days drinking even less water than I usually do (200ml for the entire 3 days) which reduced my need for electrolytes but increased my noradrenaline which made sleeping difficult.

Then I ate large meals for 3 days and after that I did a 3 day fast again, and again with smaller amounts of water. I have just now ended my 3 day fast and am embarking on the 3 day refeeding.

 

It takes 3 days for me to regain the weight I lost. I went from around 97kg to 94kg (93) both fasts.



#14 xEva

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 09:47 AM

and how do you feel after that? 

Do you measure your blood glucose? You should, really.

 

I'm not sure that what you've chosen is a good schedule. IMO this is a sure way to get yourself metabolic syndrome or/and eating disorder.  Especially since you eat large meals in between.

 

This is because in 3 days you go into ketosis --do you measure your ketones?-- and then just as you switched BAM! you go back. And then back again. Heard only bad things about this. If you ate  meager meals, literally hardly anything, this actually could work on such a schedule. Otherwise, if you want to quickly alternate eating and fasting, you should stick to 2 fasting days max, iow just live off  the liver glycogen and don't go into ketosis. Or, alternatively, you could stay on a ketogenic diet while you're doing this.

 

re regaining lost weight, it's easy to lose 3 kg in the first 3 days, and thankgod it's mostly water anyway, especially on your dryish fast. And when you refeed, most of it will be water too, but the muscle that you lose during your 3rd day you don't regain in 3 days -- unless you exercise throughout, both fasting and feeding. On such a schedule, with large meals in between, you teach your body to store fat, and that's what you will mainly gain, besides water. Do you monitor your body fat-muscle composition?


Edited by xEva, 23 March 2018 - 10:01 AM.

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#15 Believer

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 08:21 AM

xEva, you have more knowledge and expertise in fasting than I do, have you seen or read in Russian lit about gallbladder issues with frequent fasters?

https://youtu.be/vdjGgrh5zSk?t=30m7s here he mentions it at 30 minutes.

Scares me a bit but I am still going on my 4th fast, the first day today. 

 

Do I feel any changes yet? No. Except during a fast I am more stable in terms of mood and everything else and I am also more clear, but less driven and less energetic.

 

I have eaten various foods containing eggs, which I am allergic to. But the allergic response only shows itself when eggs are raw and not when they are cooked and the eggs used in these products come in the form of egg powder so they are cooked and denatured. And I have not had an allergic response. So I assume I am not doing anything wrong.

 

As for weight gain after my fasting, I noticed that the second time I broke my fast I gained less than I needed to. The third time I broke my fast I gained more than I did the first time I broke the fast. But this could be due to many reasons.

 

I think I will do a 5th fast after this 4th one and then try eating chicken and see if anything happens.

By the way, my allergic reaction to chicken and any form of poultry is in the form of overproduction of saliva in the throat, mouth and stomach. This causes pain and I need to burp to remove the pain. It lasts for 30 minutes to an hour. What is such an allergic reaction called?


Edited by Believer, 28 March 2018 - 08:27 AM.


#16 xEva

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 02:52 AM

That's interesting video thanks. So at ~30:05 Valter Longo says,

 

"If you go over 12h of fasting everyday you have up to 2 fold increase in chance you're gonna have your gallbladder removed".

 

I have never heard this either! And I do go without food for more than 12h 99% of the days, for many, many years! And I've never had problems with gallbladder. 

 

And I believe, most people go without food most days for that long, no? It's just 12h! 8 is considered normal for sleep,  what's left? 2+2? Or take Jack Lalanne. He'd go to the gym first thing in the morning and ate after he spent 6h there. He surely fasted for more than 12h every day too.

 

I don't know where Longo got this. I presume the odds of having gallbladder removed are so low that having it doubled does not change much. The reason for gallbladder removal is usually stones -- I personally never had them and no one in my family, ever. On the fasting forums someone periodically pops up asking what if they have stone(s). The thing is once you get into ketosis, on the 3rd day, your liver starts dumping so much bile, that if there were stones, they could be dislodged and block the passage and yeah, then gallbladder goes. But people who had some "sludge" (which I guess is just some thickening of the bile which shows on the ultrasound) all reported that long-term fasting (weeks!) cured all that (meaning that they had ultrasound after the fast and the dr. was amazed -- where did all go?)  But this is real fasting, at least 10 days.

 

Longo is talking about 12h. I do not consider this fasting. Fasting is when you don't eat for the whole day.Otherwise, that was an eating day. You ate once a day. That's an adult thing to do. I know nothing about this "non-fasting" fasting.  We are not mice, for whom 12h is a long time. It's normal for a human to go a day or two without eating. 

 

 

Re allergies, never had them. And never heard of your kind, sorry, so don't know what to tell you. I heard of hyves or when the face swells (forgot what it's called in en) but that's about it. But hey, I'm glad it's helping you. You should share your experience, so we all learn :)


Edited by xEva, 29 March 2018 - 02:55 AM.

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#17 sthira

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 04:13 AM

I don't know where Longo got this gallbladder thing, either. And I searched. Maybe I'm not a very good searcher, so I searched even more.

Longo said a few weird things about skipping breakfast, too. What did he say? I don't remember exactly, something straight out of the Kellog rule book for life. Was it something about breakfast skippers have more heart attacks?

Then I started worrying about Dr. Longo. He looks tired. Maybe he's tired from so many book promotions. Over and over with them, I've heard so many. I can almost hear his words wearing down, like they're losing their meaning because no one is listening, and this is exhausting to anyone. He will return to his lab, Dr. Longo shall. Get back to your love. You're onto something valuable with fasting -- it's valuable and it's free.

So I hope to hear less of Longo in the public YouTube space, and hope to be reading soon more of his work studying humans who are fasting.
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#18 xEva

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 04:25 AM

he said that people who skip breakfast are more prone to cardiovascular disease. He is full of very old statistics -- everyone knows today that the strongest correlation with CVD is chroinic infections like gum disease.  


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#19 sthira

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 04:40 AM

I fasted for 3 days drinking even less water than I usually do (200ml for the entire 3 days) which reduced my need for.....


Ah. I missed that. That may be a hint to why Longo cautions frequent fasters about gallbladder issues? Gallstones, for example, tend to build up their stoney and hard little evil bodies in dehydrated beings.

For fucks sake, Believer, believe this: when fasting drink more water than you usually drink. Food contains enormous amounts of water. So when you quit food, you quit water. So tipple the fuck up, mon.

Although the idea of dry fasting fascinates me, too -- but wait wait wait -- no one condones dry fasting, it's dangerous, the horrors, playing with fire, etcetera.

But I do wonder: if evolution gave us gifts in absence of food, then did evolution also give us gifts in absence of water? Like Americans will ever study that, lol... Maybe the Russians study such things as dry fasting, hmm?

#20 Believer

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 08:50 AM

As I've mentioned earlier too much water, regardless of how much salt I consume, will give me electrolyte deficiencies. Potassium is easy to replace but not magnesium. Right now I have a massive headache due to magnesium deficiency.

I bought Now's magnesium citrate powder but the absorption of it is so poor that I might as well use magnesium oxide. In fact, like magnesium oxide it worsens my electrolyte deficiencies by drawing water into my intestine.

I've consumed several grams and it's not enough. It also burns my tongue (because of citrate) and lumps up so it's not possible to dilute it in water.

Is it normal for magnesium citrate to lump up like that? I wanted to buy magnesium chloride but it's much more expensive.

 



#21 xEva

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 12:16 PM

Maybe the Russians study such things as dry fasting, hmm? 

 

 

not sure how plain water would affect the bile concentration -- there is a reason they call it bile salts. drinking lotsa plain water, without electrolytes, on a fast is a common mistake.

  

there are plenty of people who dry fast  on the  Russian forum, but it  was Germans who made a study of it: Anthropometric, Hemodynamic, Metabolic, and Renal Responses during 5 Days of Food and Water Deprivation, 2013

 

  

As I've mentioned earlier too much water, regardless of how much salt I consume, will give me electrolyte deficiencies. Potassium is easy to replace but not magnesium. Right now I have a massive headache due to magnesium deficiency.

I bought Now's magnesium citrate powder but the absorption of it is so poor that I might as well use magnesium oxide. In fact, like magnesium oxide it worsens my electrolyte deficiencies by drawing water into my intestine.

I've consumed several grams and it's not enough. It also burns my tongue (because of citrate) and lumps up so it's not possible to dilute it in water.

Is it normal for magnesium citrate to lump up like that? I wanted to buy magnesium chloride but it's much more expensive.

 

yeah why should Mg chloride be expensive -- if it's basically sea water. I doubt there is a more abundant resource on the planet. I too prefer chloride out of all i tried and i bought it at swansons, though it was meant as bath salts (with nothing else added).  If you're concerned about ingesting pathogens, you could run it through a hot oven.  Regardless, electrolytes should be in a solution at a right concentration, so that they taste pleasant and certainly don't burn.


Edited by xEva, 29 March 2018 - 12:23 PM.

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#22 ledgf

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 02:29 PM

You could also try NR... if you're over 50 it can fix all sorts of problems.

 

https://www.colorado...ing-its-horizon


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#23 Matt

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Posted 02 April 2018 - 11:25 PM

Calorie restriction basically cured my allergies. I used to have pretty severe hay fever symptoms until the year I started CR.



#24 Believer

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Posted 03 April 2018 - 08:20 AM

Calorie restriction basically cured my allergies. I used to have pretty severe hay fever symptoms until the year I started CR.

But is that a permanent cure? I have to ask because some people talk about a temporary fix as a cure. So you never have hay fever anymore?

Anyway I'm on the first day of my fifth and final fast before I try eating allergenic foods. 



#25 xEva

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Posted 03 April 2018 - 11:33 PM

Believer, ain't it you who keeps bombing the forum with red buttons?

 

 The rating you gave:

 

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#26 Matt

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Posted 04 April 2018 - 01:00 AM

 

Calorie restriction basically cured my allergies. I used to have pretty severe hay fever symptoms until the year I started CR.

But is that a permanent cure? I have to ask because some people talk about a temporary fix as a cure. So you never have hay fever anymore?

Anyway I'm on the first day of my fifth and final fast before I try eating allergenic foods. 

 

 

Okay, I never have hay fever symptoms unless the pollen count is extremely high. High, like when people who don't typically suffer from hay fever develop symptoms...

 

In the last last 13 years since I may have had 1-2 weeks of symptoms. So, yeah, I'd say that is pretty close to a *cure*

 

Only, I'm staying on the diet... If I went off it, maybe it'd come back?

Have you tried quercetin + bromelain?


Edited by Matt, 04 April 2018 - 01:01 AM.


#27 Believer

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Posted 08 April 2018 - 09:21 AM

Fast begin Sa 10th (March)
Fast end Mo 12th
Break Tu 13th - Th 15th.
Fast begin Fr 16th
Fast end fr 18th.
Break Mo 19th - We 21th
Fast begin Th 22th
Fast end Sa 24th
Break Su 25th - Tu 27th
Fast begin We 28th
Fast end fr 30th
Break Sa 31th - Mo 2th (April)
Fast begin Tu 3th
Fast begin Th 5th
 
I ended my fast on midnight (12pm) the 5th of April (so it was the 6th of April but I had not slept yet) and ate a piece of chicken (which I am allergic to). Although it was a small quantity, 1-2g, it should still evoke an allergic reaction. I did not get an allergic reaction.
I have continued every day to eat a few grams of chicken to see if I experience an allergic reaction. I have eaten some right now as well.
 
BEFORE I did this fasting experiment I didn't always experience allergic reactions to foods I am allergic to. Sometimes the reaction is not there or it is delayed for minutes to an hour. 
An example of this is raw eggs, it burns my tongue and produces an allergic reaction similar to chicken but not as strong, yet sometimes I can eat raw eggs and not experience much or any allergic reaction. 
 
It is well known that a fast can remove allergic reactions to things one usually is allergic to (people who fast know this) but is the lack of allergic reaction permanent in my case? We'll find out and I will report back.
 
 


#28 Believer

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 09:43 AM

So the experiment proved to be a failure. The day I made the post above I experienced stomach gas (burps) some time after eating the chicken which indicates an allergic reaction. The next day, yesterday, I experienced burping from chicken as well.

Today I've experienced an allergic skin reaction from raw egg matter touching my skin. The skin turned red with blisters.

 

That's unfortunate. Maybe allergic reactions are genetically predetermined in the sense that if you have a specific genetic make-up then you will always develop an allergic reaction to specific proteins and there is nothing you can do to prevent that except suppressing the immune system.



#29 YOLF

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Posted 01 May 2018 - 12:52 AM

In case it hasn't been said yet, blood cells don't last but several days, it is more likely that this will take 6 days of fasting though. But your white blood cells share their information on what to attack, so more of them will be normalized, but you will still be susceptible to getting the allergy again, and this is likely only for allergies that you can control as environmental allergies are more difficult to stay away from.


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#30 ninjamonk69

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Posted 02 June 2018 - 07:27 AM

11 - 21 days for most people.







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