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Bacopa monnieri - A two faced supplement?

bacopa acetylcholinesterase acetylcholinesterase inhibition

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#1 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 10:29 PM


Whenever I take bacopa I find I get an anxiety reduction effect in the short term (within the first week or two), and then a massive increase (above baseline) with longer term usage (say at a month or beyond). 

 

I (perhaps incorrectly) attribute the long term increase of anxiety to the fact that bacopa is a acetylcholinesterase inhibitor resulting in a buildup of acetylcholine.  In fact, I have found that if I consume a substantial choline source while taking bacopa long term, the anxiogenic effect is profound.  I seem to find other users who report a similar experience.

 

Is this a reasonable theory for why bacopa has such different short term and long term effects for some users?

 

In the long term, I of course find this to be an undesirable effect of bacopa.  I'd like to get the GABA receptor upregulation/anxiolytic aspect of this supplement without the acetylcholinesterase inhibition which I find to be anxiogenic.

 

Is it known exactly which components of Bacopa monnieri are responsible for it's acetylcholinesterase inhibition activity?  If there different components creating these different effects it would of course in theory be possible to get the one without the other.

 

 

 


Edited by Daniel Cooper, 20 February 2018 - 10:35 PM.

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#2 Nate-2004

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 03:16 PM

I've mainly taken it for cognitive enhancement but honestly, I don't even think it's even good for that. It inhibits p450 enzymes of various types which can be good in some circumstances but probably not in the long run. 

 

If your anxiety is chronic, try following my depression guide. That part of it is still under development but there are a lot of activities you can do to greatly reduce anxiety that are listed in there.


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#3 Galaxyshock

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 03:37 PM

I often noticed this too. I had a feeling the long-term increased anxiety came from increased thyroid hormone levels from Bacopa but could very well be acetylcholine too. Bacopa to my understanding doesn't actually upregulate GABA receptors but only normalizes GABA in epilepsy models. I think delta-opioid activation is responsible for its initial anxiolytic effect.


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#4 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 04:04 PM

Galaxy -  

 

I also questioned whether bacopa upregulates GABA receptors based on that rat study  ( https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3306740/ ).  So, I went and studied it a bit.

 

It is a rat model of epilepsy.  But it's important to understand the details of this model.  These aren't rats that have been bred to be susceptible to epilepsy.  These are normal rats that have had epilepsy chemically induced by the injection of pilocarpine.  Pilocarpine apparently damages the GABAergic system acutely by causing the death or downregulation of GABA receptors.  

 

So, this model may actually read fairly well onto the sort of impact that long term use of GABAergics likely generate.  In fact, I'll go so far as to say that it might actually be a better model for benzo/z-drug damage than it is for epilepsy.

 

So, I've gone from being fairly "down" on the use of bacopa for GABAergic damage recovery to thinking that it might actually have potential.

 

That's interesting that bacopa may increase thyroid hormone levels.  I've heard of that but didn't consider it as a potential cause.  Are there studies that show that sort of upregulation?

 

It would be fantastic if we could separate out the positive short term benefits of bacopa from the long term adverse reactions.  Of course, that would probably depend on it being different constituents creating these different effects.

 

 

 

 


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#5 Galaxyshock

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Posted 23 February 2018 - 02:17 PM

Yeah I actually thought about that too - if Bacopa is capable of normalizing GABA system in that model then it might do the same in other dysregulation states such as long-term drug usage. I remember a few anecdotes saying that starting Bacopa 1-2 weeks before withdrawing from benzodiazepines (taken daily for couple of months) people seemed to get away with minimal withdrawals. Personally I seemed to have no issues withdrawing rapidly from daily Phenibut usage as long as I started taking Bacopa about 2 weeks before quitting. However when taking Bacopa longer periods among with Phenibut and I no longer was able to withdraw painlessly.



#6 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 23 February 2018 - 02:50 PM

I might start running two week on/two week off cycles of bacopa to see how that goes.

 

I did find a rat study showing an impact on thyroid hormone levels.  It seemed to be at about a 1200mg/day level for a normal weight adult human.  Not sure how that translates to someone taking 300mg/day, but I would think there is some potential for effect there.

 

 

 


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#7 ceridwen

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Posted 23 February 2018 - 02:57 PM

Good for hypo or hyper?

#8 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 23 February 2018 - 03:07 PM

Apparently it raises T(4) in mice.

 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/12065164

 

 

 

 



#9 Ph7

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Posted 26 September 2018 - 01:54 PM

bacosides are usually used in those experiments. I have tried 7 types from four continents. Only2/7 worwked. Look it up. It can contain heavy metals, which could do all that bad stuff and more. There mau be biological activity involved. It IME is veeeeery heat vulnerable, short shelf life, varying quality, some helps, some hurts. Good bacopa is worth the monnieri. Light brown thai powder, and custom made AUS extracts are the only two that work for me. The indian was >50% bacosides and no good whatsoever. leass me to believe there is more to it. You can find plenty of theories on what IS /ARE the "magic" constituents that make proper bacopa among the best of all.
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#10 gamesguru

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Posted 29 September 2018 - 12:19 AM

don't take it all the time!  I personally ditched it out of leeriness.  And I've had trouble finding things that agree with me on a daily basis.  And then shit happens, a Japan airport closes, your package gets delayed.  And suddenly you're without tea, miserable, wondering how long again until good ideas flow from your fingertips.. a feeling redeemed only by the freshness with which it returns


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#11 Ph7

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Posted 13 October 2018 - 07:06 PM

References. we all have the internet and all facts I wrote are easily verified. DuckDuckGo is your friend. Good Bacopa is hard to find. that's life. All are welcome to etry as many types as you want. Hope you are as lucky as me and find the good one. If you think it's as simple as bacosides, you can buy >50% bacosides extract from india off e bay which was boiled in a big pot to produce a dark resin. That stuff really hurt my stomach and 90%of what I bought is laying in a garbage dump. It takes an expert to extract the full spectrum. I guess I should have taken photos of each one but my interest was not in proving anything to anyone else, my interest was in finding what works for me. My bacopa is from the oldest herbalist in Thailand and it is miraculous. I wonder if the stuff that sounds like it got you addicted was cut with something.. Search for bacopa and heavy metals, then biological, and search for bacosides shelf life. those will lead to your references. good luck. sorry to hear of the negative effects. sounds like some type of effect from heavy metals or a cheap research chemical. BTW it grows like a wildfire if you plant it in a marshy area. Just make sure it is a clean area.


Edited by Ph7, 13 October 2018 - 07:07 PM.


#12 Ph7

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Posted 13 October 2018 - 07:20 PM

@Daniel cooper. beware of the dark brown resin from India. It is so easy to get and I believe it is giving Bacopa a bad name. If you ever make it to Thailand, I will let you try the type I use. Try and find a reputable herbalist and get a tincture fresh made. Light brown powder is the form that has worked for me. the dark resin was definitely bad stuff.



#13 pamojja

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Posted 13 October 2018 - 08:11 PM

Whenever I take bacopa I find I get an anxiety reduction effect in the short term (within the first week or two), and then a massive increase (above baseline) with longer term usage (say at a month or beyond).

 
Take bacopa too. Did however never experience any anxiety effects. That's maybe because I don't suffer anxiety anyway, or because I do take it a lot with herbs it's traditionally combined with. One popular example would be Saraswata Rishta, a herbal wine with many more ingredients, as detailed for example further down this page (though actually never found one with gold as in this recipe in it).

 

If you think it's as simple as bacosides, you can buy >50% bacosides extract from india off e bay which was boiled in a big pot to produce a dark resin. That stuff really hurt my stomach and 90%of what I bought is laying in a garbage dump.

 

Interestingly never saw such a resin in India, and I really searched many hours trough Ayurvedic pharmacies to see what's available there. I used western and Indian extracts, powders, any while in India in herbal wines. Never any bad effect, except a bid calming and therefore better taken towards the evening. Also did yearly monitoring of hair minerals to check for metals. Only uranium went up in 1 year out of 10. Which was in 2011, after Fukushima.

 

 

PS: having taken about 380 mg/d of extract and 750 mg/d as powder or fermented in wine for the last 10 years, haven't ever seen an increase in fT4 while increasing bacopa intake.


Edited by pamojja, 13 October 2018 - 08:31 PM.


#14 triguy

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Posted 14 October 2018 - 12:23 AM

Galaxy -  

 

I also questioned whether bacopa upregulates GABA receptors based on that rat study  ( https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3306740/ ).  So, I went and studied it a bit.

 

It is a rat model of epilepsy.  But it's important to understand the details of this model.  These aren't rats that have been bred to be susceptible to epilepsy.  These are normal rats that have had epilepsy chemically induced by the injection of pilocarpine.  Pilocarpine apparently damages the GABAergic system acutely by causing the death or downregulation of GABA receptors.  

 

So, this model may actually read fairly well onto the sort of impact that long term use of GABAergics likely generate.  In fact, I'll go so far as to say that it might actually be a better model for benzo/z-drug damage than it is for epilepsy.

 

So, I've gone from being fairly "down" on the use of bacopa for GABAergic damage recovery to thinking that it might actually have potential.

 

That's interesting that bacopa may increase thyroid hormone levels.  I've heard of that but didn't consider it as a potential cause.  Are there studies that show that sort of upregulation?

 

It would be fantastic if we could separate out the positive short term benefits of bacopa from the long term adverse reactions.  Of course, that would probably depend on it being different constituents creating these different effects.

 

 

lotsa of interesting info here

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3746283/



#15 John250

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Posted 14 October 2018 - 06:39 PM

What you guys think about BaCognize vs Synapsa for the most health benefits?

#16 gamesguru

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Posted 23 October 2018 - 12:25 AM

What you guys think about BaCognize vs Synapsa for the most health benefits?

 

https://www.longecit...ze/#entry793536

 

synapsa is slightly stronger with a "deeper, more balanced" effect, but bacognize is much lower in lead. drops mic

please note the above information is not necessarily up to date.


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#17 peoplepleaser101

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 07:51 PM

This entire thread was a reference-less load of trash


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#18 gamesguru

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Posted 27 March 2020 - 01:34 AM

Here are some studies.  Bacopa is something you have to attack dose for 6-12 weeks at first.  But then you can cycle off, and return to it periodically as needed.

 

Efficacy of Standardized Extract of Bacopa monnieri (Bacognize®) on Cognitive Functions of Medical Students: A Six-Week, Randomized Placebo-Controlled Trial

Our study further adds to the increasing scientific evidence supporting cognitive enhancement effects of Bacopa monnieri in humans. However, our study is unique in the aspect that it was done in a randomized, placebo-controlled trial on a group of individuals with already high cognitive abilities. Also Bacopa monnieri extract in the dose of 300 mg daily produced significant effect on some components of memory with only 6 weeks of administration. This has been reported previously only with 12 weeks' therapy in other studies on normal individuals [31, 35]. Since our study was only limited to administrating Bacopa monnieri for only 6 weeks, we recommend future long-term studies to study long-term effects of Bacopa monnieri.

Enhancement of basolateral amygdaloid neuronal dendritic ...

CONCLUSION:

We conclude that constituents present in Bacopa monniera extract have neuronal dendritic growth-stimulating properties.

Neuropharmacological Review of the Nootropic Herb Bacopa ...
Morgan and Stevens137 conducted a DBRPC trial with 81 elderly Australians (300 mg/day concentrated [bacosides] extract), finding highly significant improvements in verbal learning, memory acquisition and delayed recall.

 

 

While synaptosomes from control mice exhibited a concentration related lipid peroxidation and ROS generation, synaptosomes obtained from BM fed mice showed only a marginal induction at the highest concentration clearly suggesting their increased resistance to 3-NPA-induced oxidative stress

 

Bacopa monnieri is a plant used as a nootropic in Ayurveda, a 5000-year-old system of traditional Indian medicine. Although both animal and clinical studies supported its role as a memory enhancer, the molecular and cellular mechanism underlying Bacopa's ...

 

Bacopa monniera extract (CDRI-08; BME) has been known to improve learning and memory, and understanding the molecular mechanisms may help to know its specificity. We investigated whether the BME treatment alters the methylation status of reelin and brain-derived

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