LONGECITY

I recently tried supplementing with vitamin K2 (menaquinone) in reasonably large doses (~300-500 micrograms a day or so for several days) for arterial health since the stuff cleans up arterial calcification like drano. The result was brain fog, which only faded after several days. I'm wondering why that happened, if it might cause long term damage, and if there's some way to work around it.

Possible hypotheses for why this happened;

1. Liver storage of glycogen was increased, 'starving' the brain.
2. A calcium imbalance was created since bones couldn't demineralize calcium and dump it into the blood stream.
3. Coagulation increased significantly, resulting in stickier blood.

Do any of those seem like valid reasons for a mental slowdown? I had resisted supplementing with calcium since I wanted to clear as much plaque as possible (I've never been tested to show that I have plaque, but it runs in the family.)

I got the same effects, but weaker, eating Japanese natto. Natto is high in K2.

I recently tried supplementing with vitamin K2 (menaquinone) in reasonably large doses (~300-500 micrograms a day or so for several days) for arterial health since the stuff cleans up arterial calcification like drano. The result was brain fog, which only faded after several days. I'm wondering why that happened, if it might cause long term damage, and if there's some way to work around it.

Possible hypotheses for why this happened;

1. Liver storage of glycogen was increased, 'starving' the brain.
2. A calcium imbalance was created since bones couldn't demineralize calcium and dump it into the blood stream.
3. Coagulation increased significantly, resulting in stickier blood.

Do any of those seem like valid reasons for a mental slowdown? I had resisted supplementing with calcium since I wanted to clear as much plaque as possible (I've never been tested to show that I have plaque, but it runs in the family.)

I got the same effects, but weaker, eating Japanese natto. Natto is high in K2.

Have you ever thought that it may have been because you took an insane dosage? Vitamin K builds up within the system, and you shouldn't take more than 100mcg a day! Some people think that 200-300mcg a week is plenty.

Too much of anything is not healthy and can have devastating results. People underestimate vitamins and supplements and the harm which they could potentially inflict if taken irresponsibly.


edit: If you have hypercoagulation problems, you shouldn't take vitamin K.
Edited by luv2increase, 07 September 2008 - 09:44 PM.

Have you ever thought that it may have been because you took an insane dosage? Vitamin K builds up within the system, and you shouldn't take more than 100mcg a day! Some people think that 200-300mcg a week is plenty.

Too much of anything is not healthy and can have devastating results. People underestimate vitamins and supplements and the harm which they could potentially inflict if taken irresponsibly.


edit: If you have hypercoagulation problems, you shouldn't take vitamin K.

AFIAK thats not all that insane a dosage. Studies have safely used doses of ~45mg before. On a personal note, I take Jarrows MK-7 about 3-4 times a week without any problems.

Correction. The studies that used the MG dosages, have used MK-4 (menatetrenone). MK-7 absorbes much better, therefore the mcg dosage is used. That said, in some studies, they did give natto which gave 350mcg per day i believe. It was a high dosage given per week, and I divided it to give an approx amount per day. I don't get any brain fog from using 360 or more mcg MK-7. I have also used MK-4, and from using 90MG I do notice occasional chest pain. Again, this is not the case with MK-7.

Have you ever thought that it may have been because you took an insane dosage? Vitamin K builds up within the system, and you shouldn't take more than 100mcg a day! Some people think that 200-300mcg a week is plenty.

Too much of anything is not healthy and can have devastating results. People underestimate vitamins and supplements and the harm which they could potentially inflict if taken irresponsibly.


edit: If you have hypercoagulation problems, you shouldn't take vitamin K.

AFIAK thats not all that insane a dosage. Studies have safely used doses of ~45mg before. On a personal note, I take Jarrows MK-7 about 3-4 times a week without any problems.

Menaquinone is mk-7. As the person said above, it is absorbed much better, therefore it needs to be taken in the by the mcg and not mg. 1000mcg equals 1mg just in case somebody didn't know.


The bottle of Jarrow Formulas MK-7 says to take 1 softgel per day (90mcg). Listen to the recommended dosage! I have no clue why you would take 5 times the recommended dosage. This is not safe yet rather very stupid. I hate to be mean, but it just is what it is.
Edited by luv2increase, 08 September 2008 - 08:20 PM.

Menaquinone is mk-7. As the person said above, it is absorbed much better, therefore it needs to be taken in the by the mcg and not mg. 1000mcg equals 1mg just in case somebody didn't know.


The bottle of Jarrow Formulas MK-7 says to take 1 softgel per day (90mcg). Listen to the recommended dosage! I have no clue why you would take 5 times the recommended dosage. This is not safe yet rather very stupid. I hate to be mean, but it just is what it is.

No need to be patronising. I obviously got mixed up with MK4 and MK7 dosages. Also I bet about 98% of people on this board take some supplement that is either above the recomended dosage on the bottle or the RDI.

Have you ever thought that it may have been because you took an insane dosage? Vitamin K builds up within the system, and you shouldn't take more than 100mcg a day! Some people think that 200-300mcg a week is plenty.

Too much of anything is not healthy and can have devastating results. People underestimate vitamins and supplements and the harm which they could potentially inflict if taken irresponsibly.


edit: If you have hypercoagulation problems, you shouldn't take vitamin K.

AFIAK thats not all that insane a dosage. Studies have safely used doses of ~45mg before. On a personal note, I take Jarrows MK-7 about 3-4 times a week without any problems.

Menaquinone is mk-7. As the person said above, it is absorbed much better, therefore it needs to be taken in the by the mcg and not mg. 1000mcg equals 1mg just in case somebody didn't know.


The bottle of Jarrow Formulas MK-7 says to take 1 softgel per day (90mcg). Listen to the recommended dosage! I have no clue why you would take 5 times the recommended dosage. This is not safe yet rather very stupid. I hate to be mean, but it just is what it is.

"Recommended dosage" is rarely the optimum dosage!

Uh. LEF Super Booster (which has the stuff that doen't fit into the
LEF Mix pill) has 9 mg of K1 and 1000mcg of K2, as MK-4 and MK-7.

I take super booster only every 2 or 3 days because the dose of
some things seems too high. Selenium is in there in three very
bioavailable forms of 200 mcg together, and taking full dose LEF
Mix will already give you the highest recommended dosage of 400 mcg.
I suspect one of these to be the culprit of nausea when I take LEF
Super Booster daily, which doesn't happen with occasional use.

Vitamin K action is complex and involves a lot of enzymes to
activate coagulation factors, including upregulation of gene
expression, so effect and dosage of Vitamin K may be a very
indivudally different requirement (just like some people need
a much higher dose of folate and other methylators).

I'd suspect that the genetic differences in coagulation and
vitamin K-dependent metabolism we know already are
just 10% of what's out there, or less:

http://www.snpedia.c...itle=Rs28928872
http://www.snpedia.c...itle=Rs11676382
http://www.snpedia.c...itle=Rs33926449
http://www.snpedia.c...title=Rs9923231
http://www.snpedia.c...title=Rs8050894

So it may be wise to stay below, say, weekly max. dose of
4000 mcg of MK-7 and 75 mg K1 as long as you don't have
any special prevention needs for atherosclerosis or bone problems.
Edited by mixter, 10 September 2008 - 01:00 PM.

I take the Jarrow brand MK-7 on Monday and Friday only; MK-7 has a fairly long half-life, IIRC.

I've never had any 'brain fog' taking vitamin K or any other supplement for that matter.

Your milage may vary.

Uh. LEF Super Booster (which has the stuff that doen't fit into the
LEF Mix pill) has 9 mg of K1 and 1000mcg of K2, as MK-4 and MK-7.



I take super booster only every 2 or 3 days because the dose of
some things seems too high. Selenium is in there in three very
bioavailable forms of 200 mcg together, and taking full dose LEF
Mix will already give you the highest recommended dosage of 400 mcg.
...
I'd suspect that the genetic differences in coagulation and
vitamin K-dependent metabolism we know already are
just 10% of what's out there, or less:

http://www.snpedia.c...itle=Rs28928872
http://www.snpedia.c...itle=Rs11676382
http://www.snpedia.c...itle=Rs33926449
http://www.snpedia.c...title=Rs9923231
http://www.snpedia.c...title=Rs8050894

So it may be wise to stay below, say, weekly max. dose of
4000 mcg of MK-7 and 75 mg K1 as long as you don't have
any special prevention needs for atherosclerosis or bone problems.

Thanks for everyone's help.

Mixter

1. You posted to some articles involving genetic differences in reaction to warfarin. K1, AFAIK is affected by salycilates, but MK-7 (menaquinone) is not.

2. You may want to check out the relationship between increased doses of selenium and diabetes if you haven't already.

Luv2Increase - Most info on MK-7 is pretty new so I'm trying to figure out what the optimal dosage is. There's very little good information on toxicity that I could find, unfortunately.

45-150mcg/day seems a reasonable therapeutic dose. Long story on why I took the higher dosage. I'm still trying to figure out if there are any long term negative effects. In any case, since the stuff is oil soluble I'm trying to think of my dosage more in terms of 'per week' now than per day.
Edited by wiserd, 12 September 2008 - 07:40 AM.

Uh. LEF Super Booster (which has the stuff that doen't fit into the
LEF Mix pill) has 9 mg of K1 and 1000mcg of K2, as MK-4 and MK-7.

Most of that 1000mcg is MK-4, since that ingredient is listed first as part of their "K2 Complex". You would have to ask LEF how much is MK-4, which has a much shorter half-life, and how much is MK-7. They really should have listed that information on the label.

1000mcg of which 980mcg MK-4 and 20mcg MK-7. So basically, ur getting ripped off. K1 high dosage can hamper glutathion. The k2 that u DO want, only has 20mcg.. the MK-4 needs minimum 45MG so 980mcg won't cut it since the absorption is very low.

Stick with Jarrow's 90mcg, or source naturals' 100mcg k2 as MK-7. Or if you have extra cash you really need to spend.. go with relentless improvement's 15mg K2 menatetrenone mk-4.

There is no coagulation issue with MK7, so that is not a concern...hence its preferential use.

Neogenic, I disagree.

"The Maastricht-based researchers report that both blood levels peaked after four hours. However, the levels of vitamin K1 were 86 per cent lower after only eight hours, while K2 (MK-7) levels were only 50 per cent lower after 68 hours, showing slower excretion from the body. "

"Clearly Natural Vitamin K2 as menaquinone-7 is the most beneficial vitamin K that one could take. Large scale human studies have shown that eating foods rich in Vitamin K2 significantly promotes bone health, reduces risk of bone injury, and significantly promotes cardiovascular health," said Schurgers in a release. "

The second study involved ten volunteers given increasing doses of either K1 or K2. Four hours after consuming the supplement, blood levels of the vitamins showed a dose-respondent effect, but only the K2 still had an effect 24 hours later.

"This means that - if taken in single daily doses of 100 micrograms - only MK-7 is effectively present in the circulation and available for absorption by various tissues during the 24 hours following intake," wrote the researchers.

The fourth and final study looked at the effect of the supplements on different doses of the blood-thinning drug and vitamin K-antiagonist acenocoumarol. By measuring the response to vitamin K supplementation the researchers attempted to measure the activity of vitamin K in the body.

The researchers report that MK-7 was much more potent, demonstrating a superior bioactivity.

"Haematologists, on the other hand, need to be aware that relatively low doses of MK-7 may have a larger impact on the stability of oral anticoagulation than vitamin K1," wrote Schurgers.

Source: Blood First Edition Paper
Edited by piet3r, 18 September 2008 - 10:46 AM.

Thanks for all the info... I still can't get any good info on k2 toxicity, except for the interference with glutathione mentioned previously in the thread. I'm interested in that info for its own sake, if anyone has it.
Edited by wiserd, 03 May 2009 - 10:37 PM.

the MK-4 needs minimum 45MG

[citation needed]

Thanks for all the info... I still can't get any good info on k2 toxicity, except for the interference with glutathione mentioned previously in the thread. I'm interested in that info for its own sake, if anyone has it.

I found this article interesting:
Scientific Opinion of the Panel on Dietetic Products Nutrition and Allergies on a
request from the European Commission on the safety of ‘Vitamin K2’. The EFSA Journal (2008)

http://www.efsa.euro...f?ssbinary=true.

It includes a ton of safety data, which I haven't even all read yet. But If you look down the article, you will see studies and dietary intakes for K2. The Vermeer study tested 360mcg of Mk-7 daily and didn't find any clotting issues. There is also the Japanese Population-Based Osteoporosis Study, with a mean of 70-100mcg, up to 200mcg/daily.

And I'd really like to see the full results of this study:
Dose-Finding Study for Vitamin K2 in Human Volunteers
http://clinicaltrial...how/NCT00483431

Study has been completed, so is complete data out there somewhere, or paper waiting to be written?
Edited by nameless, 04 May 2009 - 12:07 AM.

your problem is youre overdosing... <100mcg/day of k2 mk7. theres no need for more....

"Recommended dosage" is rarely the optimum dosage!

with something as well studied as k2, the recommended dose often is the optimum dose.
Edited by ajnast4r, 04 May 2009 - 03:05 AM.

your problem is youre overdosing... <100mcg/day of k2 mk7. theres no need for more....

"Recommended dosage" is rarely the optimum dosage!

with something as well studied as k2, the recommended dose often is the optimum dose.

Ok...that's a valid point.

I currently take 200mcg a day for arterial health, can you guide me to the studies that illustrate less than 100mcg is preferable for this preventative measure? What issues might I encounter if I continue with the higher dosage?
Edited by shaggy, 11 May 2009 - 08:32 PM.