Any plans for a Cryonic Facility in Wester...
Miguel 10 Oct 2010
I know there is Kriorus in Russia, but since it is in Eastern Europe, far far away and not from European Union, it is harder to ship.
The problems with airline shipping because of laws, burocratic documents, etc are a big nightmare. Then it takes a lot of time since the person dies and the body arrives in the cryonics facility.
And with Pets, it seems it is even harder to ship by plane. I tried one enterprise and the person said that after talk with various airline enterprises, any of them accepts to carry a dead dog. I'll still try to get more information but it seems impossible to ship by plane.
Western Continental Europe, should already have one facility.
I think without the cost and problems of shipping we could even have more Western Europeans that could pay for Cryopreservation.
I suppose Western Continental Europe even has the 2nd biggest market on Cryonics.
For example, if we look into CI statistics (I can't add Alcor statistics since they don't have it), Western Continental Europe is the 2nd biggest market:
- USA: 622
- Western Continental Europe: 87
(
Germany 20
Greece 12
Spain 12
Netherlands 10
Sweden 7
Belgium 5
France 4
Italy 4
Norway 3
Poland 2
Austria 1
Croatia 1
Czech Rep 1
Denmark 1
Lithuania 1
Malta 1
)
- British Islands: 73
(
UK 68
Ireland 3
Isle of Man 2
)
I really think it's more than time to Western Continental Europe has its own facility and so members can be free from the shipping airline problems. Shipping would be a lot easier, specially for pets.
Edited by Miguel, 10 October 2010 - 12:15 AM.
Delorean 10 Oct 2010
albedo 24 May 2011
So which approach someone living outside US should be taking?
robomoon 25 May 2011
Edited by robomoon, 25 May 2011 - 09:07 AM.
albedo 25 May 2011
Thank you for reply. Agree, that could explain why Germans are on top of the list given by Miguel. I have the same concern as yours re costs. At the last Suspended Animation (SA) conference there were some "competitive" considerations between Alcor (Max More) and CI (Ben Best). Clearly CI is cheaper but the approach is different as with CI you would need to rely on SA for preparation and transportation. Alcor quoted 200k$ for full body while CI 35k$ (if i recollect the webcast) w/o SA services. Wonder if Moore's law and competition will apply here too pushing costs down..... So far, most of people in Western Continental Europe who want cryonics are not short on doe. Those people are satisfied for what cryonics costs right now and I bet, they would be willing and able to pay even more to secure faster transportation to a foreign cryonics facility.
robomoon 25 May 2011
Thank you for reply. Agree, that could explain why Germans are on top of the list given by Miguel. I have the same concern as yours re costs. At the last Suspended Animation (SA) conference there were some "competitive" considerations between Alcor (Max More) and CI (Ben Best). Clearly CI is cheaper but the approach is different as with CI you would need to rely on SA for preparation and transportation. Alcor quoted 200k$ for full body while CI 35k$ (if i recollect the webcast) w/o SA services. Wonder if Moore's law and competition will apply here too pushing costs down..... So far, most of people in Western Continental Europe who want cryonics are not short on doe. Those people are satisfied for what cryonics costs right now and I bet, they would be willing and able to pay even more to secure faster transportation to a foreign cryonics facility.
albedo 14 Jun 2011
I live in there and love the Country. It is not (yet? expect not to be for a long time) in Europe but geographically at the centre of it with great infrastructures, top educational institutions and an effective and stable political system. It has a long historic of tolerance, extraordinary democracy, wealth and I guess what I could call a pragmatic and non-dogmatic approach to death with rights to decide (last May 15 2011 people in Zürich voted to maintain "assisted suicide" (see DIGNITAS's site here and an analysis here).
Leveraging this background, I just wonder: would'not be Switzerland the ideal place in Europe to have legislation on cryonics plus local suspension and store premises, actually with the opposite scope, at the end, of preserving (rather than ending it) life, should current science making it realistic and betting on the long term scientific progress?
albedo 18 Sep 2011
albedo 03 Jun 2012
There is also an idea I just wish to float around: Switzerland.
I live in there and love the Country. It is not (yet? expect not to be for a long time) in Europe but geographically at the centre of it with great infrastructures, top educational institutions and an effective and stable political system. It has a long historic of tolerance, extraordinary democracy, wealth and I guess what I could call a pragmatic and non-dogmatic approach to death with rights to decide (last May 15 2011 people in Zürich voted to maintain "assisted suicide" (see DIGNITAS's site here and an analysis here).
Leveraging this background, I just wonder: would'not be Switzerland the ideal place in Europe to have legislation on cryonics plus local suspension and store premises, actually with the opposite scope, at the end, of preserving (rather than ending it) life, should current science making it realistic and betting on the long term scientific progress?
This is mentioned to some extent also in the Alcor magazine:
".....
OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES
Outside the United States a few jurisdictions have legalized assisted suicide, in particular Switzerland, where citizenship in the country is not required. Physicians are not prosecuted for assisting a suicide, so long as they are not motivated by self-interest. Organizations have been set up to provide this service, the best known being Dignitas.2 Founded in 1998 by Ludwig Minelli, a Swiss lawyer, Dignitas enables those with terminal illness or severe physical or mental illness to die assisted by qualified doctors and medical staff. Under certain conditions persons with mental rather than physical ailments are assisted to die; the patient’s condition must fulfill specifications of the Federal Supreme Court of Switzerland. In fact about one fifth of those dying through Dignitas do not suffer from a terminal or progressive illness but from “weariness of life.” The method of suicide is generally ingestion (swallowing) a lethal dose of the barbiturate Nembutal, though helium gas has also been used. It appears that the majority of cases are not autopsied but there is, of course, no guarantee of this.3
Could Dignitas or a similar organization help cryonicists? Probably the answer is “yes” but there would be extra expense (maybe about $10,000 overall) for an American using the service, plus the remains immediately after pronouncement would need to be handed over to a cryonics service provider such as Suspended Animation, Inc. for perfusion and initial cooling, an additional and no doubt considerable expense. The operation would be greatly facilitated, in some important ways, if there could be a Dignitas-type organization that catered to cryonics cases only. The liberal laws of Switzerland in regard to assisted suicide would seem to offer such a possibility, though it remains speculative. Another country that has legalized assisted suicide is the Netherlands,4 though apparently it is available only to citizens of the country, unlike Switzerland. Also unlike Switzerland, euthanasia (active participation of physicians in causing death) is legal in the Netherlands. The following conditions (“due care” criteria) must be met before a doctor can proceed:....."
http://www.alcor.org...yopreservation/
albedo 17 Jun 2012
http://www.swissinfo...ml?cid=32920490
caliban 26 Jun 2012
mikeb80 24 Aug 2012
When someone dies, the body must be kept under observation in the morgue (and not touched) for 24 hours.
So I hope that in the next years some hospital/clinic in Switzerland or UK will become "cryonics friendly" and will allow a fast intervention from a dedicated team (cooling down the body within few minutes, doing perfusion... and all the necessary steps to stabilize the patient and to avoid the death of neurons by ischemic damage). But a vitrification plant is still needed in order to ship to USA.
At the moment the nearest cryonics facility (for the citizens of the European Union) is the Kriorus, established in 2005.
I saw some photos and a video about them.
I appreciate the effort and dedication to the cause (they rely on 5 paid employees and a dozen of volunteers), but their company seems quite amateurish, if compared with the professionalism of Alcor & Cryonics Institute.
The storage facility is an old hangar in the woods some miles from Moscow.
Of course... with more money (= more patients ) the service could improve a lot and offer higher safety standards.
Edited by mikeb80, 24 August 2012 - 11:30 AM.
albedo 30 May 2015
At time 1:09:58 of the following video, William Faloon (LEF) asks Max More (Alcor) to comment on the Suspended Animation company in Florida for emergency response capability in view of cryopreservation and he mentions UK and the "upcoming in Germany" facility. I wonder if you know more about the German company.
elfanjo 14 Jun 2015
the way I understand it is that transportation will be available from germany too (it is available from the uk at this time) via SA.
Shame we have no EU storage facilities. In france where political analysis-paralysis is the rule it will not happen anytime soon.
I recall of this doctor who had frozen (litteraly) his wife after she passed away and was keeping her in the basement. Authorities were soon knocking at his door and they had to bury her.
Antonio2014 24 Jun 2015
So far, most of people in Western Continental Europe who want cryonics are not short on doe. Those people are satisfied for what cryonics costs right now and I bet, they would be willing and able to pay even more to secure faster transportation to a foreign cryonics facility.
How do you know that? I'm certainly interested in cryonics and I don't have the money to be cryonized. (Of course, a single datum doesn't matter. That's why I ask.)