LONGECITY

I have crippling social phobia, OCD and insomnia that I self-medicate by taking phenibut daily. I know this is considered risky, but I'm not too concerned - last year I cycled off the phenibut after 7 months of daily use and had no problems beyond the initial withdrawal phase. I'd prefer benzos, but most doctors I've dealt with are total drug nazis who refuse to prescribe them for long term use.

Over the last month I've been taking 10g of valerian on top of the phenibut, based on the assumption that another weak gaba agonist would potentiate the phenibut's effects. I know that's a huge dose of valerian, but my anxiety is beyond severe and I'm desperate to alleviate the symptoms.

My anxiety levels shot way up soon after that. At first I thought I was just having a bad month - but after noticing that the phenibut was no longer dilating my pupils, I figured that my tolerance to it had gone up and I took a break.

I did a taper when I went off before, but this time as an experiment I went off cold turkey. I was surprised to find that the withdrawal was negligible this time, even after two full days off it. Very surprising.

When I went back on the phenibut yesterday, I still barely felt it and my eyes still weren't dilated. I thought maybe it was just a weak batch - but today on a hunch I tried taking it without the valerian, and suddenly I can feel the effects again and my pupils are massive.

Is there any evidence that multiple gaba agonists could compete for the same receptor and cancel each other out? I was under the impression that phen and valerian act on different gaba receptors, but I can't think of any other explanation for what's happening. Could this have something to do with the amount of valerian I'm taking? I took valerian with phen before, but not as high as 10g a day.

I don't think it's a weak brand of phenibut - I'm using the same brand as always. It's the well known brand that comes in the plastic tubs.

Any ideas? This is very puzzling, especially considering all the phenibut horror stories I've heard. Cold turkey withdrawal should have been quite severe.

I know this is an old thread -- if you happen to see it, can you post an update?

I have a theory that valerian, although quite mild in its actions, causes massive receptor downregulation that occurs very quickly (no sources, as it's just a theory). That might explain part of your experience. I'm happy to provide an anecdotal report on some of my experiences that have lead me to believe this -- just curious if you came to conclusions on your own.

I have a theory that valerian, although quite mild in its actions, causes massive receptor downregulation that occurs very quickly (no sources, as it's just a theory).

That's just total bullshit. Valerian mainly works by increasing the enzyme responsible conversion of glutamate -> GABA. It's one of the gentlest GABAergics there is. Ofcourse it is possible causing excess glutamate excitement if abused like you taking retarded doses and then withdrawing cold turkey.

Phenibut on the other hand is a wierd chemical that can have effects lasting a lot longer than the initial buzz. It messes with PEA in the brain and the withdrawal can just suddenly blow up out of nowhere several days after the last dose. Massive PEA load can induce schizophrenic symptoms and when GABA-B that is responsible for controlling it is downregulated by phenibut all hell can break loose.

If one has to take GABAergics I would go with theanine, Gotu Kola, Valerian or Ashwagandha used responsibly. Combining pharmaceutical drugs like phenibut with these is just retarded if you don't know what you're doing.

I found out that some gabaerics/sedatives/analgetics partly cancel each other out. If I take l-theanine or phenibut before I use Kratom, all positive effects I would get from Kratom are not present. Cannabis on the other side appears to enhance all Gabaerics I tried (phenibut, benzos, opioids for their secondary effect on gaba receptors)

I have a theory that valerian, although quite mild in its actions, causes massive receptor downregulation that occurs very quickly (no sources, as it's just a theory).

That's just total bullshit. Valerian mainly works by increasing the enzyme responsible conversion of glutamate -> GABA. It's one of the gentlest GABAergics there is. Ofcourse it is possible causing excess glutamate excitement if abused like you taking retarded doses and then withdrawing cold turkey.

Phenibut on the other hand is a wierd chemical that can have effects lasting a lot longer than the initial buzz. It messes with PEA in the brain and the withdrawal can just suddenly blow up out of nowhere several days after the last dose. Massive PEA load can induce schizophrenic symptoms and when GABA-B that is responsible for controlling it is downregulated by phenibut all hell can break loose.

If one has to take GABAergics I would go with theanine, Gotu Kola, Valerian or Ashwagandha used responsibly. Combining pharmaceutical drugs like phenibut with these is just retarded if you don't know what you're doing.

Gotta keep in mind the context I was responding to before jumping to assumptions. The (second) bolded part of your comment pretty much sums up what I was talking about. 3 pills of valerian worked great for me to relax and fall asleep... for a few days. Then it takes 5. Then it takes 8. Before long, you get to the point it's not worth it to take that many pills and give up, because lower doses are ineffective at this point. It's not like a benzo, dose escalation is going to happen very rapidly if you want continued results.

Considering this was his comment I was responding to, the "total bullshit" thing is a little inappropriate -- because your second bolded statement is what I assume he was referring to by this comment:

Over the last month I've been taking 10g of valerian on top of the phenibut, based on the assumption that another weak gaba agonist would potentiate the phenibut's effects. I know that's a huge dose of valerian, but my anxiety is beyond severe and I'm desperate to alleviate the symptoms.

I obviously can't tell you if he quit cold turkey, but it's likely.

Anyway, like I said, it's just a theory. But it's plausible that valerian is a great substance for causing rapid downregulation, if for no other reason than the fact that tolerance develops stupidly fast, tempting one to ramp up the dose.
Edited by RS3RS, 22 July 2012 - 09:28 PM.

There is evidence that valerenic acid "inhibits" (x>100 micromolar) and "agonizes" (30<x<100 micromolar) certain gaba receptors at high doses () (http://www.univie.ac..._al_reprint.pdf). At lower doses (1 micromolar), it seems to act as a positive allosteric modulator. There are a few theories on this seemingly paradoxical (non-linear, bell curve) mechanism, including the "open channel block", involving acetoxy-valerenic acid. We could guess your micromolarity based on your bodyweight and your claim that you take 10 grams daily, but we'd need a bit more info. You might just be causing down-regulation due to falling in the 30-100 range, or you could be causing a sort of antagonism due to falling in the above 100 range.

Perhaps GABA receptors just down-regulate fast compared to other receptors? I doubt this, since it seems specific to valerian (using theanine or picamilon isn't reported to cancel other gaba agonists/modulators). Another guess is that the rate of down-regulation is nothing special, and exactly what we would expect.

I have a theory that valerian, although quite mild in its actions, causes massive receptor downregulation that occurs very quickly (no sources, as it's just a theory).

That's just total bullshit. Valerian mainly works by increasing the enzyme responsible conversion of glutamate -> GABA. It's one of the gentlest GABAergics there is. Ofcourse it is possible causing excess glutamate excitement if abused like you taking retarded doses and then withdrawing cold turkey.

Phenibut on the other hand is a wierd chemical that can have effects lasting a lot longer than the initial buzz. It messes with PEA in the brain and the withdrawal can just suddenly blow up out of nowhere several days after the last dose. Massive PEA load can induce schizophrenic symptoms and when GABA-B that is responsible for controlling it is downregulated by phenibut all hell can break loose.

If one has to take GABAergics I would go with theanine, Gotu Kola, Valerian or Ashwagandha used responsibly. Combining pharmaceutical drugs like phenibut with these is just retarded if you don't know what you're doing.

I didn't realize that anyone had replied to this old thread. Anyway -

I know exactly what I'm doing and I'm far from "retarded". Considering that I'm the only person I've found online who can stop long term phenibut use without experiencing severe crippling withdrawal that lands me in the ER, I'd say that I have a pretty good handle on the situation. I'm successfully managing severe 20+ year PTSD without the help of a psychiatrist or therapist.

It could be that I just have an unusually high threshold for anxiety, since I've lived with daily panic for decades. I suspect that phenibut withdrawal is essentially the same for all users, and that the perceived severity of the symptoms is entirely subjective. Not sure. At any rate, I seem to be the only person who thinks that phenibut withdrawal isn't a big deal. It feels no worse to me than how I already felt every day for years.

Just for the record, I don't just indiscriminately pump tranquilizers into my system - 10g a day of valerian was well within the accepted maximum daily dose, and I've experience absolutely no withdrawal or heightened anxiety when I stop. But as far as mild herbal GABAergics go, I've definitely found that less is more. After a certain threshold dose, the calming effects don't get any better and instead I start getting an unpleasant fuzzy impaired feeling. I currently stack small doses of multiple GABAergics that work via different mechanisms, based on the theory that they'll create a synergistic effect. I do hours of online research and I'm well aware of the risks of anything that I put into my body. I'm currently on lemon balm, gotu kola, valerian and niacinamide on top of the phenibut, and I've definitely experienced a broader spectrum of anxiety relief on this mix than I would with just phenibut alone.

I'm also well aware of the risks of GABAergics - the benefit to risk ratio of phenibut is in my favor, since my PTSD symptoms are so incapacitating. I'd be concerned that I'm causing lasting changes to my GABA system, but I already did that via years of prescription benzos and alcohol. Also, I'm very sensitive to any fluctuations in my GABA levels, and I still experience no apparent symptoms of downregulation after the first month off phenibut. Whenever my GABA system has taken a significant hit, my baseline anxiety symptoms are intensely magnified and I end up shaking all the time. This happens to me if I drink alcohol even 2x a week for a month, and these symptoms will last for several months after my last drink - but nothing like that has happened for me after the initial 2-4 week withdrawal period from phenibut. I've also noticed no psychosis or anything even remotely like that. In my case, the withdrawal effects that are unrelated to GABA just manifest themselves in a mild sense of general malaise that goes away within a few weeks.

I wanted to add a few more thoughts about phenibut withdrawal -

Right now I'm on day six of a cold turkey withdrawal from the 3g of phenibut I've been taking daily since August 2011. I went off for a week every few months during that period, but this time I'm going off for a month to see if I notice any lingering changes to my GABA system. The withdrawal itself is no big deal for me - at this point my only concern is preventing long term issues with GABA downregulation.

Withdrawal is still minor for me, even after almost a year of use. Sleep is difficult but not impossible. I find that I have to spend at least 10-12 hours in bed to compensate for the fact that I can't sleep more than a few consecutive hours at a time, though when I get up I still feel rested enough to go through my usual routine of running 5-10 miles a day.

As I've already pointed out, I think my ability to easily cope with phenibut withdrawal is due to by my extremely high psychological tolerance for anxiety symptoms. Those phenibut horror stories you read about online pretty much describe how I've felt every day since the early 90s. Apparently, my daily baseline anxiety is another person's ER visit.

A mix of phenibut and sceletium(aka kanna) has basically saved my life and allowed me to function without taking prescription psych drugs. I've been getting similar positive effects as when I used to be on the maximum dose of prescription benzos and paxil, except without all the horrendous sexual side effects, weight gain, or severe brain fog.

I also wanted to add that I'm NOT suggesting that anyone takes phenibut long term or goes off it cold turkey. I just wanted to put my own personal experience with this drug out there for whatever it's worth, since apparently I'm a unique case.
Edited by moleface, 12 August 2012 - 09:07 PM.