LONGECITY

Another poster who is unable to post links would like some opinions on the following post at another site which is a hypothesis on the method of action for accutane being due to telomere shortening.
http://www.topix.com...QJ8DO1TLI41VBPN

Original post:
http://www.longecity...79-hi-everyone/

Thanks Cryonic

This study supports the opinions of the thread starter on the topix site link.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....icles/PMC34517/

This study supports the opinions of the thread starter on the topix site link.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....icles/PMC34517/

I don't think it does. The problem is that this study is looking at cancer cells that have constitutively active telomerase, but normal somatic cells don't express telomerase. I read most of the guy's meandering argument on topix, and I think he's just grasping at straws.

What is required then is an expansion of the study to include normal stem cells, which also express telomerase albeit to a lesser degree than in cancer cells. The study did conclude that telomere length recovered once the retinoids were removed, so you'd have to take the Accutane long term to induce apoptosis in many cells to suffer permanent damage (or benefit if the effect is only found in cancerous cells).

The study did conclude that telomere length recovered once the retinoids were removed, so you'd have to take the Accutane long term to induce apoptosis in many cells to suffer permanent damage (or benefit if the effect is only found in cancerous cells).

So in the vast majority of somatic cells, there would be no effect at all, and even if any cell did see some inhibition of telomerase, it would only be temporary. I think this rules out the guy's hypothesis that Accutane side effects are caused by telomere loss. Accutane side effects can last a very long time. At the moment, we have two different posters who are having intractable long term problems due to former use of Accutane.

What are some of the problems one would experience? I used tretinoin (generic) quite a bit. Should I watch out for anything?

At the moment, we have two different posters who are having intractable long term problems due to former use of Accutane.

Make that 3.

Lufega, werent you experiencing a milder form of "floxing" (adverse reaction to fluoroquinolones) for a while?

ALso, FQ have been reported to inhibit telomerase in tumor cells at least...

http://mct.aacrjourn...nt/1/2/103.full
Fluoroquinolones have been reported to possess weak telomerase inhibitory activity in addition to their better known bacterial gyrase poisoning.

http://www.infectweb...d0=&index168=on
At high concentrations (> 200 microg/ml), both ofloxacin and levofloxacin inhibit proliferation of transitional cell carcinoma cell lines but have no effect at low concentrations (</= 100 microg/ml). However, even at low concentrations, telomerase activity was inhibited by both fluoroquinolones.

Could this be why,in addition to feeling 90 years old now with all the vision/cognitive/neurological/musculoskeletal damages induced by the drug, I also look at least 10 years older than I did before my first FQ pill? (unfortunately confirmed by the ppl around me)
Edited by daouda, 14 April 2013 - 02:26 PM.

I have been in conversation with Niner and he has been very helpful/informative. It has been 4 years since I have taken accutane and I still have severely dry eyes/lips/skin. What is weird about this is I had done 2 full cycles of accutane before and never had a problem. The side effects subsided within a few weeks of stopping the drug.

Can anyone comment on what accutane could do to epithithial tissue?
Edited by Tsaun, 14 April 2013 - 02:54 PM.

Your symptoms could also be related to a possible effect of accutane on the endocrine system or the androgen receptors, as dry eyes and skin can be related to low androgens.

Your symptoms could also be related to a possible effect of accutane on the endocrine system or the androgen receptors, as dry eyes and skin can be related to low androgens.

I see what you are saying, but the thing is there are no sebaceous glands that produce sebum on the lips which are dry as well.
Edited by Tsaun, 14 April 2013 - 02:59 PM.

Well the eyes have no sebaceous gland and androgen therapy is know to relieve dry eyes while androgen deprivation induces them, also many spironolactone (an antiandrogen) users report chapped lips along with the dry eyes and skin

Well the eyes have no sebaceous gland and androgen therapy is know to relieve dry eyes while androgen deprivation induces them, also many spironolactone (an antiandrogen) users report chapped lips along with the dry eyes and skin

I am self employed, Does anyone know if home androgen/testosterone tests are reliable?
Edited by Tsaun, 14 April 2013 - 04:32 PM.

Life extension sells them, you can take the paperwork they send you to the lab and they run the blood tests. $200 on sale for the complete male panel IIRC. I don't think the saliva tests really tell you much in most cases. I'd wait for a more informed response though.

If you did downregulate telomerase in stem cells for an extended period, you would not be able to replace certain rapidly proliferating somatic cells as required, which would certainly be a problem. I don't know if the stem cells would be able to catch up once the Accutane was removed. It would certainly be interesting to see the study done.

The study did conclude that telomere length recovered once the retinoids were removed, so you'd have to take the Accutane long term to induce apoptosis in many cells to suffer permanent damage (or benefit if the effect is only found in cancerous cells).

So in the vast majority of somatic cells, there would be no effect at all, and even if any cell did see some inhibition of telomerase, it would only be temporary. I think this rules out the guy's hypothesis that Accutane side effects are caused by telomere loss. Accutane side effects can last a very long time. At the moment, we have two different posters who are having intractable long term problems due to former use of Accutane.

I have absolutely no background in Biology or chemistry which is why I am here, but I am reading countless lawsuits that claim Accutane suppresses epithelial cells which could be reasons for IBS/Chron's disease shown here:

http://www.consumeri...ve-Colitis.html


I also know that epethlial stem cells characterize the skin. There have been reports of telomerase activity in normal human epithelial cells, how do these cells differ from somatic cells?


I really appreciate your posts
Edited by Tsaun, 14 April 2013 - 10:07 PM.

That is EXACTLY what I want to know. I would definitely be willing to log c60 results as niner suggested or cycloastragenol. My lips and skin were ok, I do not believe they were of the same quality before I went on my first cycle of accutane back in the day but I certainly did not need moisturizer for my face 24/7 or chap stick before this third cycle. The third cycle was only 4-6 weeks and that seemed to do the damage.

If you search the internet there are TONS of people who have what seem to be permanent side effects and I would love to find something to help them.

If you did downregulate telomerase in stem cells for an extended period, you would not be able to replace certain rapidly proliferating somatic cells as required, which would certainly be a problem. I don't know if the stem cells would be able to catch up once the Accutane was removed. It would certainly be interesting to see the study done.

The study did conclude that telomere length recovered once the retinoids were removed, so you'd have to take the Accutane long term to induce apoptosis in many cells to suffer permanent damage (or benefit if the effect is only found in cancerous cells).

So in the vast majority of somatic cells, there would be no effect at all, and even if any cell did see some inhibition of telomerase, it would only be temporary. I think this rules out the guy's hypothesis that Accutane side effects are caused by telomere loss. Accutane side effects can last a very long time. At the moment, we have two different posters who are having intractable long term problems due to former use of Accutane.

Edited by Tsaun, 14 April 2013 - 10:31 PM.

Hi - I just came across this forum while researching on telomere length and accutane. I took the generic version last year for 6 months and as a biomedical researcher, I would like to provide my input.

The hypothesis that isotretinoin may decrease telomere length is quite possible. I have talked briefly with a prominent telomere scientist regarding my side effects during- and post-treatment, which he stated can be key signs that are attributable to telomere length changes. Beside the usual side effects reported, I suffered a major injury during my isotretinoin treatment. A broken bone 3 months into the treatment which took significantly longer than normal (typified to show significant ossification on an x-ray 3 month post-injury but mine was 6 months post with barely any signs of ossification taking place). Also, how I ended up with a broken bone was unusual because I've had the same incident (bicycle accident) previously under more extreme circumstances yet I did not break my bones. It is reported that wound healing takes longer under isotretinoin treatment and can we attribute this to alterations in telomerase and telomere control? Can we also speculate that the thinning of the skin, mucous membrane, hair, muscle soreness, and bone growth deformities (all connective tissues) are linked to changes in telomere regulation during and post isotretinoin use?

Another thought is, given that Crohn's disease and ulcerative colitis are the 'most common' long-term side effects, which is opposite to cancerous growth (ulcers can be likened to pits), could this be attributed to critically short telomere lengths leading to apoptosis producing the ulcers within the gastrointestinal tract?

One thing that interests me a lot is the possible use of telomere length testing, such as the one that will be offered by Telome Health, to monitor changes that may deviate from an ideal telomere length for my given age over time. This also brings to mind, are there any clinical research studies examining telomere length before, during, and after isotretinoin treatment? No doubt such a study would be highly controversial and possibly unethical. Nonetheless, I really would like to know the exact mechanism...

This is just my 2 cents. Please provide me your guys' thoughts!

Hi - I just came across this forum while researching on telomere length and accutane. I took the generic version last year for 6 months and as a biomedical researcher, I would like to provide my input.

The hypothesis that isotretinoin may decrease telomere length is quite possible. I have talked briefly with a prominent telomere scientist regarding my side effects during- and post-treatment, which he stated can be key signs that are attributable to telomere length changes. Beside the usual side effects reported, I suffered a major injury during my isotretinoin treatment. A broken bone 3 months into the treatment which took significantly longer than normal (typified to show significant ossification on an x-ray 3 month post-injury but mine was 6 months post with barely any signs of ossification taking place). Also, how I ended up with a broken bone was unusual because I've had the same incident (bicycle accident) previously under more extreme circumstances yet I did not break my bones. It is reported that wound healing takes longer under isotretinoin treatment and can we attribute this to alterations in telomerase and telomere control? Can we also speculate that the thinning of the skin, mucous membrane, hair, muscle soreness, and bone growth deformities (all connective tissues) are linked to changes in telomere regulation during and post isotretinoin use?

Another thought is, given that Crohn's disease and ulcerative colitis are the 'most common' long-term side effects, which is opposite to cancerous growth (ulcers can be likened to pits), could this be attributed to critically short telomere lengths leading to apoptosis producing the ulcers within the gastrointestinal tract?

One thing that interests me a lot is the possible use of telomere length testing, such as the one that will be offered by Telome Health, to monitor changes that may deviate from an ideal telomere length for my given age over time. This also brings to mind, are there any clinical research studies examining telomere length before, during, and after isotretinoin treatment? No doubt such a study would be highly controversial and possibly unethical. Nonetheless, I really would like to know the exact mechanism...

This is just my 2 cents. Please provide me your guys' thoughts!

Do you still have the sides Performance or did they go away after taking the drug? My first cycle went fine and the sides went away within a few weeks, but my third cycle is what gave me the longterm issues.

So I went for only 1 x 6 month cycle with the last 3 months at the highest dose for my weight (forgot exactly the amount). I am now 6 month post-treatment and I have noticed that the side effects have subsided but I still get dry eyes, lips, and thinning/losing hair, though not as severe. I still get acne but not as severe either. Seems that my side effects were worse while on the medication, but I am now taking preventive measures by changing my health habits to hopefully not get the long-term side effects reported.

May I ask what your long-term issues? How does it affect your quality of life? And, any advice you would provide?

So I went for only 1 x 6 month cycle with the last 3 months at the highest dose for my weight (forgot exactly the amount). I am now 6 month post-treatment and I have noticed that the side effects have subsided but I still get dry eyes, lips, and thinning/losing hair, though not as severe. I still get acne but not as severe either. Seems that my side effects were worse while on the medication, but I am now taking preventive measures by changing my health habits to hopefully not get the long-term side effects reported.

May I ask what your long-term issues? How does it affect your quality of life? And, any advice you would provide?

The first advice I would give is since you still are getting acne don't touch accutane again. Look into oil pulling and change of diet, it might take a long time for the body to adapt but eventually it will work. My sides are symptoms of ibs, extremely chapped lips and dry skin. It sucks man, it has ruined my life. It is very hard to be social like I once was because of what the drug did to me. I would look into getting some hyaluronic acid which accutane depletes and do not take any vitamins or supplements with vitamin a in it. Try to eat clean and avoid spicy foods. Up your diet in omega 3's or take fish oil if you can.

I believe I am going to start cycloastragenol and astrogaloside to see if that helps with the cell damage which I believe accutane left me with.

Thanks for the advice, Tsaun.

I have already started taking 1000mg omega-3 daily and thankfully I have a wonderful person to prepare healthy and clean meals. I feel for you and I hope that your symptoms do not worsen and get better! Also, I forgot to ask, but how long ago did you take accutane (1st, 2nd, and 3rd doses)?

Thanks for the advice, Tsaun.

I have already started taking 1000mg omega-3 daily and thankfully I have a wonderful person to prepare healthy and clean meals. I feel for you and I hope that your symptoms do not worsen and get better! Also, I forgot to ask, but how long ago did you take accutane (1st, 2nd, and 3rd doses)?

Thanks man.

First cycle was my senior year of high school in August of 2004. I was on 80 mg ed for 4-5 months.

Second was mid 2007, 80 mg ed, 4-5 months.

Third was for 4 weeks in November of 2009, when I started getting the side effects in November I could feel that my lips and skin were not the same as they were the previous 2 times I went on accutane. The previous cycles of accutane I could atleast moisturize and I would feel fine for a period of time, it wasn't like that this time.

Thanks for information, Tsaun.

Sounds as if you were on the upper dose limit and for a very long time.