5 underrated nootropics that reversed cogn...
contraband 25 Jul 2015
Edited by contraband, 25 July 2015 - 05:08 AM.
Junk Master 25 Jul 2015
Funny to say, but I just picked up a kilo of good ol' Piracetam and for me it does really work as well as any racetam. What I really enjoy is an increase in verbal fluency and the lifting of brain fog after rare nights out drinking.
As an adaptogen and anxiolytic I really like Ash as well.
Edited by Junk Master, 25 July 2015 - 02:00 PM.
resveratrol_guy 25 Jul 2015
Funny to say, but I just picked up a kilo of good ol' Piracetam and for me it does really work as well as any racetam. What I really enjoy is an increase in verbal fluency and the lifting of brain fog after rare nights out drinking.
As an adaptogen and anxiolytic I really like Ash as well.
Be careful with piracetam for reasons discussed over here.
If you must drink alcohol, c60oo might be a safer route to avoiding cognitive deficits, given the same amount of alcohol. (This is my impression based on anecdotes, but in any event I wouldn't opt for piracetam with this objective.)
@contraband: Nice contribution. Do you have any data to provide, for example, gaming scores or other performance metrics?
Edited by resveratrol_guy, 25 July 2015 - 08:55 PM.
RobertPaulson 26 Jul 2015
Do you notice any adaption to the intake of the Triiodothyronine? Do you use it on a daily basis?
Always was a little affraid to play with those thyroid hormones ...
But the methylenve blue ... I can totally understand. With extensive daily workout, it transformed me
in no time, from a couchpotato into a, well say, low level athlete for now. Previously I basically didn't do
excessive sport because afterwards my brain just got foggy and I couldn't work as a
mathematician during up to 30 hour or so. With MB this was just gone, right from the first day. Heavy excercise + clean analytical power afterwards. That stuff is really cool for people with a bad habit for sport/excercise/metabolism ect.
Edited by RobertPaulsen, 26 July 2015 - 06:23 PM.
contraband 28 Jul 2015
Funny to say, but I just picked up a kilo of good ol' Piracetam and for me it does really work as well as any racetam. What I really enjoy is an increase in verbal fluency and the lifting of brain fog after rare nights out drinking.
As an adaptogen and anxiolytic I really like Ash as well.
Be careful with piracetam for reasons discussed over here.
If you must drink alcohol, c60oo might be a safer route to avoiding cognitive deficits, given the same amount of alcohol. (This is my impression based on anecdotes, but in any event I wouldn't opt for piracetam with this objective.)
@contraband: Nice contribution. Do you have any data to provide, for example, gaming scores or other performance metrics?
All I've got is a strong upward trend in exam performance over the last 2 years, but it is difficult to disassociate this from a number of confounds. At some point I will eliminate one thing at a time from my stack and add in back in to see if whether there is a dose-dependent effect on cognitive measures.
I always wonder if the placebo effect itself might modestly enhance cognition simply via the expectation of higher performance. There is some study where students who wore lab coats during an exam performed better - the authors speculated that professional attire might boost performance.
I'm very interested in compounds that directly affect BDNF or the BDNF receptor. I wonder if N-acetylserotonin has ever been tested in humans, since it behaves similarly to 7,8-DHF.
airplanepeanuts 28 Jul 2015
Hey Robert, since you're from Germany. Where do you but it? Thinking about trying it myself. Thank you.
RobertPaulson 28 Jul 2015
Buy what? Methylene Blue? In Germany you can get it at Omikron. Its the pure greenish/black powder. Their quality is
"puriss" not analytical, but that is still very pure. I think much better then most nootropics people use here.
You can buy it as a private person and the price is <15EUR for 10g, if I remember correctly. A lifetime supply. It even has a charge number on the label, so eventually you can get an analysis certificate. But I don't think that is necessary.
However, I got my from Carl Roth, since my company has a contract with them. But you can't buy there as a private person.
I mixed 250mg with 20mL of destilled water, which for me is ~ 0.5mg per drop of the dropper that I use. Keep it in a brown bottle. Then 1 drop per cup of water every now and then (~ 3-4h).
But from my experience I can not recommend to mix it with ascorbic acid as people do. The stuff gets sluggy greenish after some time, which I interpreted as a sign of degradation in this acidic solution.
Anyway, I started with fish medicine from "Hellweg Baumarkt". That stuff had 600mg of MB in 100mL. Unfortunately it had moreover 700mg of Benzalkoniumclorid in it. I decided to try it anyway, just for a short amount of time. Benzalkonium is in a lot of other products, like eye drop and isn't THAT toxic. Took it for a week and after I was convinced to not get pranked by any placebo, I bought the analytical stuff from Roth, which, I'm very happy with,so fare.
Edited by RobertPaulsen, 28 July 2015 - 10:30 PM.
Aurel 29 Jul 2015
You could think of running a little MBlue business for your german brothers?
RobertPaulson 29 Jul 2015
Yes no problem. Just PM me. Is here a place to make this a public announcement ?
contraband 29 Jul 2015
Yes no problem. Just PM me. Is here a place to make this a public announcement ?
I would totally buy German MB!
Just so you guys know, bluebrainboost and niles on Ebay also sell pharma MB. bluebrainboost seems a little pricy but at least you can get a solution rather than just powder.
Edited by contraband, 29 July 2015 - 01:56 PM.
Flex 30 Jul 2015
There is a further alkaloid in tobacco with a half-life of 12 h which has IIRC an even stronger (or comparable) antischizophrenic effect than nicotine.
Just forgott the name..
plumper76 31 Jul 2015
contraband 01 Aug 2015
Do you notice any adaption to the intake of the Triiodothyronine? Do you use it on a daily basis?
Always was a little affraid to play with those thyroid hormones ...
But the methylenve blue ... I can totally understand. With extensive daily workout, it transformed me
in no time, from a couchpotato into a, well say, low level athlete for now. Previously I basically didn't do
excessive sport because afterwards my brain just got foggy and I couldn't work as a
mathematician during up to 30 hour or so. With MB this was just gone, right from the first day. Heavy excercise + clean analytical power afterwards. That stuff is really cool for people with a bad habit for sport/excercise/metabolism ect.
RobertPaulson, I take the triiodothyronine (T3) on a daily basis but I am under the care of an endocrinologist and am being treated for subclinical hypothyroidism. It subjectively feels similar to a psychostimulant for me.
As you say, playing with thyroid is probably not a great idea, but it can be an effective strategy for people with a TSH > 5.
There is a further alkaloid in tobacco with a half-life of 12 h which has IIRC an even stronger (or comparable) antischizophrenic effect than nicotine.
Just forgott the name..
Is Alstonine (https://en.wikipedia.../wiki/Alstonine) the antipsychotic alkaloid? Would love more info on this.
Flex 01 Aug 2015
No, it afaik doesnt occur in tobacco
According to this link below, it occurs in an African plant
https://advancingsch...28/hello-world/
I guess its Cotinine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotinine
btw the other look interresting too
Effects of tobacco smoke constituents, anabasine and anatabine, on memory and attention in female rats.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/25122040
http://journals.plos...al.pone.0128224
boowasabi 02 Aug 2015
No, it afaik doesnt occur in tobacco
According to this link below, it occurs in an African plant
https://advancingsch...28/hello-world/
I guess its Cotinine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotinine
btw the other look interresting too
Effects of tobacco smoke constituents, anabasine and anatabine, on memory and attention in female rats.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/25122040
http://journals.plos...al.pone.0128224
I chew nicotine gum, but that wouldn't contain cotinine. Know of any cotinine sources?
normalizing 02 Aug 2015
a nicotine gum containing more shit than just plain nicotine, like cotinine and alstonine or whatever else is in there naturally, would be such a god sent
airplanepeanuts 03 Aug 2015
Buy what? Methylene Blue? In Germany you can get it at Omikron. Its the pure greenish/black powder. Their quality is
"puriss" not analytical, but that is still very pure. I think much better then most nootropics people use here.
You can buy it as a private person and the price is <15EUR for 10g, if I remember correctly. A lifetime supply. It even has a charge number on the label, so eventually you can get an analysis certificate. But I don't think that is necessary.
I bought MB from Omikron. It's not intended for ingestion, according to the information on the bottle. But with 99% purity and a 10mg dose, 0.1mg of whatever should be no problem?
RobertPaulson 03 Aug 2015
I think that is no problem. The main impurity should be Arzure-B, but that is the main metabolite in your body anyway.
(By the way Azure-B itself is an even more potent MAO-A Inibitor, I tink around 5 times as potent as MB itself)
Then there is Aluminium, Chrome, Ferrus ect. My stuff is 99.9% and the amounts of toxic metals are way below the
amounts in sea fish, so even with 99%, that's better then nature I think.
They have to write "not for human consumption" ect, for legal issues. There are completely other taxes, safety measures
and claims for damages, if something is declared as for human consumption.
=====
But be careful with the 10mg. I know people here see it different, but IMHO MB is a very potent MAO-A inibitor. However it is reversible and that effect only last a few hours. I take 1mg occasionally with some DXM and it potentiate the serotonin effect already very noticeable, despite of the NMDA effect, which shifts the overall experience. But since its action on MAO-B is small, I think you don't have to be careful with tyramine.
I think a good deal of people here, who say they "can feel" MB, secretly describe its MAO-A effect. Especially if they say, the feeling only last a short amount of time. The mitochondrial part is not a feeling, IMHO.
Anyway, if you are after that mitochondrial effect, then I would say 10mg is way to much, because the amount of MB in your system is criticial for this effect. To much and it is gone. I think 10mg is more in the range of the tau-protein effect, like on the low end of the Rember studdy.
Would start with 0.5mg. Of course there is no drug-effect or something. If I want to feel its power, I have a very hard body exercise, like running and after that I can still do brain work - clear headed.. MB is good in combination with sport. I spend years of my life as a couchpotato, because every time I tried healthy exercise, I ended up with brain fog, which get in the way of my job as a mathematician. MB changed that in no time and now I can do extensive exercise of all kind, without a reduction in my mental abilities.
Edited by RobertPaulsen, 03 August 2015 - 08:07 PM.
Niccoló 03 Aug 2015
Good post. I drink Yerba Mate tea once or twice a week and it has a very nice subtle effect.
One recommendation, T3 5 mcg is way too low, unless you are a 100 pound girl. Up the dosage to 12,5 mcg. Tell your doc to up your dose or buy some T3 yourself. I recommend Genesis T3 100x 50 mcg, cheap and reliable.
Playing with your Thyroid poses no threat at all. This is the biggest paranoia I have come across. I used to run T3 at 75-150mcg for half a year and my hormones returned to baseline within a couple of days (did a blood check 2 days after stopping, they were pretty bad; then again at day 10 and they were up and running like Forest Gump). There have been studies about people having been put on a T3 therapy for many years and when they stopped, their thyroid function returned to normal within 2-3 weeks. No need to taper or cycle T3.
Edited by Niccoló, 03 August 2015 - 08:53 PM.
boowasabi 04 Aug 2015
100% agree that MB is mostly for neuroprotection/mitochondrial enhancement and is not something that you "feel". I did not know that about Azure B. Also did not know that about MB improving exercise performance. Where did you source your methylene blue? I'm trying to compare vendors.
I think that is no problem. The main impurity should be Arzure-B, but that is the main metabolite in your body anyway.
(By the way Azure-B itself is an even more potent MAO-A Inibitor, I tink around 5 times as potent as MB itself)
Then there is Aluminium, Chrome, Ferrus ect. My stuff is 99.9% and the amounts of toxic metals are way below the
amounts in sea fish, so even with 99%, that's better then nature I think.
They have to write "not for human consumption" ect, for legal issues. There are completely other taxes, safety measures
and claims for damages, if something is declared as for human consumption.
=====
But be careful with the 10mg. I know people here see it different, but IMHO MB is a very potent MAO-A inibitor. However it is reversible and that effect only last a few hours. I take 1mg occasionally with some DXM and it potentiate the serotonin effect already very noticeable, despite of the NMDA effect, which shifts the overall experience. But since its action on MAO-B is small, I think you don't have to be careful with tyramine.
I think a good deal of people here, who say they "can feel" MB, secretly describe its MAO-A effect. Especially if they say, the feeling only last a short amount of time. The mitochondrial part is not a feeling, IMHO.
Anyway, if you are after that mitochondrial effect, then I would say 10mg is way to much, because the amount of MB in your system is criticial for this effect. To much and it is gone. I think 10mg is more in the range of the tau-protein effect, like on the low end of the Rember studdy.
Would start with 0.5mg. Of course there is no drug-effect or something. If I want to feel its power, I have a very hard body exercise, like running and after that I can still do brain work - clear headed.. MB is good in combination with sport. I spend years of my life as a couchpotato, because every time I tried healthy exercise, I ended up with brain fog, which get in the way of my job as a mathematician. MB changed that in no time and now I can do extensive exercise of all kind, without a reduction in my mental abilities.
RobertPaulson 04 Aug 2015
Source: See post #7
About the exercise performance, this is from experience, but there is a study on the internet where dogs do exercise and where they found that MB enhanced *something* in their performance parameters, which I don't remember right now exactly. Maybe someone can look it up.
Edited by RobertPaulsen, 04 August 2015 - 06:33 PM.
Duchykins 04 Aug 2015
Amitriptyline registers on the anticholingeric cognitive burden scale, it scored a 3 (out of 3). Just FYI.
No doubt the tricyclics can help cognitive problems that are caused by depression, or caused by an abundance of acetylcholine. We just have no idea until we try it.
nicklesprout 04 Aug 2015
contraband - how long have you been taking the 7,8 dhf and do you worry about Trk downregulation? still having the same effects?
contraband 11 Aug 2015
Good post. I drink Yerba Mate tea once or twice a week and it has a very nice subtle effect.
One recommendation, T3 5 mcg is way too low, unless you are a 100 pound girl. Up the dosage to 12,5 mcg. Tell your doc to up your dose or buy some T3 yourself. I recommend Genesis T3 100x 50 mcg, cheap and reliable.
Playing with your Thyroid poses no threat at all. This is the biggest paranoia I have come across. I used to run T3 at 75-150mcg for half a year and my hormones returned to baseline within a couple of days (did a blood check 2 days after stopping, they were pretty bad; then again at day 10 and they were up and running like Forest Gump). There have been studies about people having been put on a T3 therapy for many years and when they stopped, their thyroid function returned to normal within 2-3 weeks. No need to taper or cycle T3.
Yerba Mate is the jam.
Out of curiosity, why were you using T3? I think exogenous thyroid is pretty safe, but 75-100mcg T3 seems like a lot for someone without thyroidal illness. Thyroid is very potent and controls the metabolism of every cell in your body. Were you using it to enhance athletic performance?
I think you are right that thyroid totally recovers even after years of exogenous thyroid treatment.
Edited by contraband, 11 August 2015 - 01:22 AM.
contraband 11 Aug 2015
contraband - how long have you been taking the 7,8 dhf and do you worry about Trk downregulation? still having the same effects?
I have been taking 7,8-DHF for years without ill effect. This does not mean 7,8-DHF is safe in humans; it has never been formally studied.
I was willing to take the risk because my depression was severe and I exhausted all options.
I am reassured that 7,8-DHF has the flavone backbone that other many common antioxidants share, e.g., quercetin. 7,8-DHF is also naturally present in plants, though we can't draw any conclusions about its safety based on this observation. The difference between 7,8-DHF and quercetin is simply the position and number of hydroxyl groups.
Receptor downregulation is a possibility, but no downregulation was observed in animal studies. Though receptor densities were not directly measured, the behavioral effects of 7,8-dhf administration were lasting, including increased neurogenesis, increased BDNF, etc.
(Paradoxically, 7,8-DHF increases BDNF; one might think that 7,8-DHF induced activation of the Trk B (aka BDNF receptor) would result in negative feedback, decreasing circulating BDNF in the cerebrospinal fluid.)
Attached Files
normalizing 11 Aug 2015
so contraband you have been taking it for years without ill effects, but what are the positive results then, it helped a lot with depression or just slightly by just augmenting it in combo with other means like inclusion of other different things you take and lifestyle?
airplanepeanuts 11 Aug 2015
For instance I met a guy at starbucks and couldn't remember his name. But two minutes later It suddenly came to me- even with middle name.
RobertPaulson 11 Aug 2015
@airplanepeanuts: Sounds like placebo to me. 5mg is likely way to high for the nootropic effect. Remember that such high doses have an opposite effect on the mitochondria! And even if it works on your mitochondrias. Your brain can not recover in a single day!. MB is not a drug like adderall.
Although I don't understand what "uplift in mood" you are expecting. This is not a drug. "Uplift in mood" might come from its MAOA-I properties, but more likely that effect is not very pleasant. Looking for "moodlifting" sounds to me, like you are secretly looking for a drug. Then why not go with adderall&co?
I think all doses in the mg range should only be considered by older people to protect against tau, if at all. I speak from personal experience, that the 100-500 micro-gramm range is working very well.
Some people say those low doses can not work, but that's plain wrong. A lot of drugs are even stronger. 100 micrograms of some fentanyls will kill you instantly. And look for high potent MAO-Inhibitors, too! Those are sold in the pharmacy in the <1mg range and they have binding profiles similar to MB. In conclusion I strongly recommend to test the microgram scale, if you want a mind effect and don't look on your feelings to judge this. It pays of by constant repeated intake after a short amount of time. But I think only, if you already lack "good metabolism". On the other side if you want a stimulating drug, take a stimulating drug.
Here is test to proof the micro-range: Go and buy some DXM. Then haven't used MB for a few days, take 90mg. Most people will barely notice anything here. Maybe a very mild effect. Then take 200 microgram
(MICRO) MB and 30 minutes late again take 90mg of DXM. In my case then I can feel a serotonin "rush", so to me this means the MAO-A Inhibition has been proofen in the micro-gram range.
Attention: Be carefull to not take much more DXM with the MB,to prevent a toxic serotonin syndrom!
Edited by RobertPaulsen, 11 August 2015 - 10:46 PM.
airplanepeanuts 12 Aug 2015
@airplanepeanuts: Sounds like placebo to me. 5mg is likely way to high for the nootropic effect. Remember that such high doses have an opposite effect on the mitochondria! And even if it works on your mitochondrias. Your brain can not recover in a single day!. MB is not a drug like adderall.
Although I don't understand what "uplift in mood" you are expecting. This is not a drug. "Uplift in mood" might come from its MAOA-I properties, but more likely that effect is not very pleasant. Looking for "moodlifting" sounds to me, like you are secretly looking for a drug. Then why not go with adderall&co?
My brain doesn't even need to recover, I was just trying MB as part of my ongoing ambition to trial all kinds of stuff:).
And as such a person I am constantly checking for subtle changes in my mental faculties. I notices a slight better recall a few days after dosing, which of course should be taken for what it is worth
airplanepeanuts 12 Aug 2015
I suspect that the initial post is viral marketing, mainly because the shop mentioned happens to sell 3 out of 5 of the supplements.
The poster registered just for this topic.
Also: Yerba Mate for cognitive decline? I don't think so...