LONGECITY

I've read that dates are anti-inflammatory foods rich in vitamins, minerals, polyphenols, and antioxidants:

http://journals.plos...al.pone.0120964

 

However, dates seem pretty high in sugar / fructose.  For someone with decent blood sugar control / insulin sensitivity, would consuming dates regularly raise any concerns over Advanced Glycation Endproducts?  4 small medjool dates is something like 30+ grams of fructose and 60+ grams of sugar.

I consume dates daily AND have Diabetes (2)....it seems to do little if anything to my glucose levels....not even spikes....

Cursory research indicates dates rate around 45 (low) on the Glycemic Index....

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Substituting fructose for starch is known to improve insulin sensitivity and blood sugar control in type II diabetics. This is because, in contrast to glucose, fructose is hardly insulinogenic, as it is exclusively metabolized by the liver. I wouldn't worry about fructose from whole fruits, even dried dates. The fiber from the fruits slows down absorption so that the liver will have no trouble metabolizing the fructose and you won't see any significant increase in blood fructose levels. The only way to overtax a healthy liver and causing blood levels to rise is by consuming it in liquid form - e.g. soft drinks. That said, everything in moderation is a good idea...

Edited by timar, 14 September 2015 - 06:36 PM.

The liver converts fructose into liver-glycogen only (without the help of insulin). Fructose cannot be stored as muscle-glycogen or anything else. Once liver-glycogen is full, any other fructose is converted into saturated-fats and send to the adipocyte for storage. This is fine and all, but an excess of fat within the adipocyte, will eventually lead to overstuffed adipocytes and ectopic-fat storage, which is the very first step in type-2-diabetes; a term called lipotoxicity. Of course eating too much premade-fat or "fatty-foods" also causes this problem as well.

 

That is mainly why a long-term high-fat/high-sugar diet causes obesity and diabetes.

The liver converts fructose into liver-glycogen only (without the help of insulin). Fructose cannot be stored as muscle-glycogen or anything else. Once liver-glycogen is full, any other fructose is converted into saturated-fats and send to the adipocyte for storage. This is fine and all, but an excess of fat within the adipocyte, will eventually lead to overstuffed adipocytes and ectopic-fat storage, which is the very first step in type-2-diabetes; a term called lipotoxicity. Of course eating too much premade-fat or "fatty-foods" also causes this problem as well.

 

That is mainly why a long-term high-fat/high-sugar diet causes obesity and diabetes.

I'm curious if regular intermittent fasting or other lifestyle factors (exercise) or foods in the diet affect the response here to a high-fat / high-sugar diet.  For the past 7 months or so, I have around 200-400g of carbs in my diet, which provides up over 200 grams of sugar somedays, with a large portion of that as fructose.  I also eat a lot of high fat meals (breakfast occasionally is up around 80% fat), and lately I'm experimenting with combining these fats with the carbs into my meals, in the form of high-fat/high-sugar meals.  I've been slowly adding a little more weight / muscle on, while eating this high-fat/high-sugar diet at a caloric surplus.  At this point, I'm still well under 10% body fat with minimal abdominal fat and my fasting glucose / A1C seems to be in a healthy range with low triglycerides, low LDL, and healthy levels of HDL.  Perhaps it takes a while to catch up and I would be better eating starches than fruits, or a low-fat diet... or a low-fruit / low-carb diet while eating at a caloric surplus?  Eating starches, I seem to notice higher blood sugar, which also raises some glycation concerns.

Edited by brosci, 04 November 2015 - 01:13 AM.

 

 Perhaps it takes a while to catch up

 

No problems would occur until the adipocytes become overstuffed with fat.

Substituting fructose for starch is known to improve insulin sensitivity and blood sugar control in type II diabetics. This is because, in contrast to glucose, fructose is hardly insulinogenic, as it is exclusively metabolized by the liver. I wouldn't worry about fructose from whole fruits, even dried dates. The fiber from the fruits slows down absorption so that the liver will have no trouble metabolizing the fructose and you won't see any significant increase in blood fructose levels. The only way to overtax a healthy liver and causing blood levels to rise is by consuming it in liquid form - e.g. soft drinks. That said, everything in moderation is a good idea...

 

This is interesting, I'm getting fed up with all the fights over fruits and fructose. I have recently started eating them again , in rather large amounts and I feel good, has anyone anything to share on the fruits "debate"?

Is, after all, a varied diet with every0hting in moderation the best way out of nonsense fad diets and "science based" dogmas?

Edited by Wagner83, 16 October 2016 - 05:02 PM.

Substituting fructose for starch is known to improve insulin sensitivity and blood sugar control in type II diabetics. This is because, in contrast to glucose, fructose is hardly insulinogenic, as it is exclusively metabolized by the liver. I wouldn't worry about fructose from whole fruits, even dried dates. The fiber from the fruits slows down absorption so that the liver will have no trouble metabolizing the fructose and you won't see any significant increase in blood fructose levels. The only way to overtax a healthy liver and causing blood levels to rise is by consuming it in liquid form - e.g. soft drinks. That said, everything in moderation is a good idea...

 

Thank you Timar, your posts are very informative, I had no idea!

 

I try to eat a variety of fruits with maybe 2-3 fruits per day (banana, orange, apple...) and I was afraid that would have amounted to too much fructose per pay. Now I start to think this amount is quite reasonable on a long term basis. I hope anyway...

Edited by Astreon, 09 January 2017 - 04:32 AM.

Glucose meters are quite cheap. Especially if you only want to experiment for a short time, since meters are discounted to get you to buy the test strips. If you only want 100 test strips, then it's a good deal. You don't need to research or speculate what effect a food has, you can see for yourself.

 

I found fruit was raising my BG up to 150-160. If I skipped the fruit and only ate veggies, meat, and fat, my BG will only go up to 110-120.

 

I learned a lot from my glucose meter. I made a number of changes. I reduced the amount of fruit I eat, down to only 3.5 oz per meal and eaten with the other foods. I used to eat all my fruit at the end of my meal, all at once, as dessert because I thought it would be better if it came after the fat and protein. But, for me, I found it's worse eating it all at once and better to spread it out with the other food. I'm not sure how that makes sense. I also used to work out before dinner since I thought it was better for muscle recovery. Now I work out after dinner, because exercise almost instantly brings my BG down to normal. Even very low intensity exercise, like walking works well. I try to take a walk after lunch most days.

 

The AHA recommends 4 servings of fruit a day. Some experts say more, others say even less. I was surprised how small a serving is. For example, a serving of blueberries is 2.6oz, or 2.8oz of cherries. If you weigh it, that's like 3 bites! Crazy small. I was eating way too much fruit before, apparently. I was pretty much addicted to fruit. It was hard to stop eating when it was at the end of my meal. Now with these changes it's not a big deal.

Glucose meters are quite cheap. Especially if you only want to experiment for a short time, since meters are discounted to get you to buy the test strips. If you only want 100 test strips, then it's a good deal. You don't need to research or speculate what effect a food has, you can see for yourself.

 

I found fruit was raising my BG up to 150-160. If I skipped the fruit and only ate veggies, meat, and fat, my BG will only go up to 110-120.

 

I learned a lot from my glucose meter. I made a number of changes.

 

Thank you ta5 for sharing your experience.

 

I never thought of testing myself with a glucose meter. I will put it in my to do list since I am now concerned about tons of things related to sugar like insuline resistance, diabetes, glycation...

 

Edited by Astreon, 09 January 2017 - 06:34 AM.

I did some glucose meter checking -- yup, 140-160mg/dl peak range when eating things like unripe banana, raspberries and wild blueberries, cherries, oranges, etc. With meat and veg, I peak around 100-110 and generally spend most of the day under 100, although this requires a lot of fat for calories and puts me into ketosis. With preworkout dates, I get a spike up to 160, followed by a strong urge to not workout very hard (despite BG never really experiencing much of a crash.) Pre-workout carbs effectively ruin my workout before I even start.

It's not realistic for me to hit a hard enough exercise soon enough after eating to make a difference for the spike -- if this is the goal, I can just eat something like cauliflower and artichoke hearts instead of fruit and pop a grape seed extract, then workout when it's comfortable.

When eaten at the end of a fatty / protein-rich / fiber-rich meal consumed leisurely over 30-60m, BG seems to rise for much longer and stay elevated for much longer than just eating an apple on its own, but it's a smoother ride up and down with maybe a slightly attenuated peak. Exercising before a meal and using glucose disposal supplements further attenuates the spike into the 130-150 range. A good 2 hours after a meal, BG is usually down under 100, or at least under 140.

White rice / boiled sweet potato can get me up to the 160-180 realm (briefly.) Interestingly, legumes with fat can supply a ton of carbs with a relatively uneventful rise in BG. I'm not sure if it's wiser for me to eat more legumes (I have concerns about the lectins), ignore these little spikes from fruits / starches (low lectins and higher in polyphenols), or simply stay meat + veg based for the micronutrients and use fats for the calories, where I'm rocking chronically depressed insulin levels 24 / 7 with stable glucose all day every day.

My last HOMA-IR test measured 0.2 and A1C measured 4.9% (while experimenting with a HFLC diet). I exercise daily (HIIT, compound lifts, sprints, rock climbing) and fast for 14-20hrs a day. While avoiding carbs beyond 30-50g from veg, I do notice better focus, productivity, energy, and mood (although exercise suffers, muscles appear smaller, and hunger / body fat increases.)

I've also read that ketosis dramatically increases glycation via methylgloxal production which is several times more destructive as fructose / glucose, with further complications via lower liver glutathione and higher postprandial lipids / tgs / insulin resistance (which can lead to higher fasting BG and higher spikes for otherwise low-GI meals, driving up more potential for glycation.) On the other hand, I have noticed that really carby meals which hit 160-180, while being horrible for energy / focus, have excellent effects on subsequent workout performance and body composition via insulin signaling / glycogen stores / increased lepton and thyroid hormones.

I'm not quite sure what to make of this n=1 data. For now, I'm on the meat + veg ketogenic bandwagon. But this seems like more of a hack than solution... and if this does increase glycation, that'll be kind of ironic / needlessly masochistic.
Edited by brosci, 09 January 2017 - 08:09 AM.