Propranolol to delete traumas / approach a...
CalmContact 21 Aug 2017
Propranolol to delete traumas?
http://www.scienceal...ainful-memories
"The research suggests memories can be manipulated because they act as if made from glass, existing in a molten state as they are being created, before turning solid," Richard Gray explains for The Telegraph. "When the memory is recalled, however, it becomes molten again and so can be altered before it once more resets."
Numerous studies have now shown that by blocking a chemical called norepinephrine - which is involved in the fight or flight response and is responsible for triggering symptoms such as sweaty palms and a racing heart - researchers can 'dampen' traumatic memories, and stop them being associated with negative emotions.
For example, at the end of last year, researchers from the Netherlands demonstrated they could take away arachnophobes' fear of spiders by using a drug called propranolol to block norepinephrine.
To figure this out, the team took three groups of arachnophobes. Two of these groups were shown a tarantula in a glass jar to trigger their fearful memories of spiders, and were then either given propranolol or a placebo. The third group was simply given propranolol without being shown a spider, to rule out the possibility that the drug on its own was responsible for reducing their fear.
Over the next few months, the groups were all presented with another tarantula and their fear response was measured. The results were pretty incredible - while the group given the placebo and those given propranolol without being exposed to a spider showed no change in their fear levels, arachnophobes who were shown the spider and given the drug were able to touch the tarantula within days. Within three months, many of them felt comfortable holding the spider, and their fear hadn't come back even after a year. It was like their fear had been deleted."
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I *guess* they take the drug before they see the spiders, so it works while they see it? It makes not so much sense to me if they take it after? Or perhaps this exactly is the trick - re-living the total fear to 'activate' it and make it malleable and then dampening it with the drug.
On the other hand we all (well at least i) did approach women while being totally intoxicated with alcohol-'confidence' and it did not help me when i was sober again.
Perhaps alcohol does not work in the same brain-memory related way.
Or fear of approaching women is of a different complexity than spiders.
Also it's like sedona or any other mindfulness meditation - be totally there, feel it fully, observe it in the body -> it basically tells you to 'be with it' and relax = anti fight/flight reflex. And also to remember the trauma and fully be with it and relax into it.
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Here the actual study:
http://www.biologica...0313-3/fulltext
Background
Although disrupting the process of memory reconsolidation has a great potential for clinical practice, the fear-amnesic effects are typically demonstrated through Pavlovian conditioning. Given that older and stronger memories are generally more resistant to change, we tested whether disrupting reconsolidation would also diminish fear in individuals who had developed a persistent spider fear outside the laboratory.
Methods
Spider-fearful participants received a single dose of 40 mg of the noradrenergic β-blocker propranolol (n = 15), double-blind and placebo-controlled (n = 15), after a short 2-min exposure to a tarantula. To test whether memory reactivation was necessary to observe a fear-reducing effect, one additional group of spider-fearful participants (n = 15) received a single dose of 40 mg propranolol without memory reactivation.
Results
Disrupting reconsolidation of fear memory transformed avoidance behavior into approach behavior in a virtual binary fashion—an effect that persisted at least 1 year after treatment. Interestingly the β-adrenergic drug did initially not affect the self-declared fear of spiders but instead these reports followed the instant behavioral transformation several months later.
Conclusions
Our findings are in sharp contrast with the currently pharmacological and cognitive behavioral treatments for anxiety and related disorders. The β-adrenergic blocker was only effective when the drug was administered upon memory reactivation, and a modification in cognitive representations was not necessary to observe a change in fear behavior. A new wave of treatments that pharmacologically target the synaptic plasticity underlying learning and memory seems to be within reach.
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Sounds like a miracle drug!
So i would go out, imagine going up to a woman, go towards her, and feel the fear and the hearbeat rising and stuff. Then i would swallow 40mg. And then - several months later ?!? - the fear is gone?
"Disrupting reconsolidation of fear memory transformed avoidance behavior into approach behavior in a virtual binary fashion—an effect that persisted at least 1 year after treatment. Interestingly the β-adrenergic drug did initially not affect the self-declared fear of spiders but instead these reports followed the instant behavioral transformation several months later."
On the other hand the article - who i at least very much hope has read the (non-freely available full text) speaks about "arachnophobes who were shown the spider and given the drug were able to touch the tarantula within days. Within three months, many of them felt comfortable holding the spider"
So where do i get this Propranolol. Seems to be mostly used for cardiavascular diseases
https://www.wikiwand.../en/Propranolol
Due to the fact that memories and their emotional content are reconsolidated in the hours after they are recalled/re-experienced, propranolol can also diminish the emotional impact of already formed memories; for this reason, it is also being studied in the treatment of specific phobias, such as arachnophobia, dental fear, and social phobia.[22]
Ethical and legal questions have been raised surrounding the use of propranolol-based medications for use as a "memory damper", including: altering memory-recalled evidence during an investigation, modifying behavioral response to past (albeit traumatic) experiences, the regulation of these drugs, and others.[23] However, Hall and Carter have argued that many such objections are "based on wildly exaggerated and unrealistic scenarios that ignore the limited action of propranolol in affecting memory, underplay the debilitating impact that PTSD has on those who suffer from it, and fail to acknowledge the extent to which drugs like alcohol are already used for this purpose."[24]
So this guy innuendos that propanolol is not so powerful and people already use alcohol to the same effect. But i just think the - have spider phobia, see spider, drink alcohol, days later much less fear of spiders would not work.
Nature Neuroscience
Published online: 15 February 2009 | doi:10.1038/nn.2271
Beyond extinction: erasing human fear responses and preventing the return of fear
Merel Kindt1, Marieke Soeter1 & Bram Vervliet1
Animal studies have shown that fear memories can change when recalled, a process referred to as reconsolidation. We found that oral administration of the -adrenergic receptor antagonist propranolol before memory reactivation in humans erased the behavioral expression of the fear memory 24 h later and prevented the return of fear. Disrupting the reconsolidation of fear memory opens up new avenues for providing a long-term cure for patients with emotional disorders.
(1) Department of Clinical Psychology, University of Amsterdam, Roetersstraat 15, 1018 WB Amsterdam, The Netherlands.
http://www.nature.co...otcallback=true
Longer text (german): http://www.heise.de/...29/29756/1.html
Basically it says, that you can use that drug, go out approach women, and then never ever have approach anxiety again. Same for all other fears. They´re talking this can help victims of rape for example to bring the criminals to justice by going on court without fear.
https://www.heise.de...en-3421845.html
Study with 120 people
first day:
- creating a fearful memory (looking at spider pictures, suddenly there is a sharp sound and an electric shock)
second day:
- take 40mg propranolol (Beta blocker)
- 1,5 hours after intake of beta blocker they re-activated the fearful memory; there was fear
third day:
- reactivating the fearful memory (loud sound I guess) did NOT lead to fear anymore, fear was deleted
(guys who got placebo still had the fear of the electric shock after the sound
also guys who took propranolol but were not having reactivated the memory did not lose the fear)
I hate that they speak about ‘reactivating’, I want to now what exactly they did, this word just makes it unclear.
So in theory:
take 40mg propranolol
go out approaching with fear
next day you have no approach anxiety anymore
Doubts:
Here they created one specific fear memory. But approach anxiety is like 10s or 100s of fear memories tangled up together?
There is one guy in the comments who says he has to take this medicine daily since his heart attack.
The result: Stuff that makes your adrenaline go high (eg car goes onto your lane) – he just has no adrenaline reaction anymore.
Now being able to stay calm in situations when your heart would pump cracy high – sounds like eg a newbie approaching-situation.
Turnbuckle 22 Aug 2017
So in theory:
take 40mg propranolol
go out approaching with fear
next day you have no approach anxiety anymore
Yes, though I would be surprised if it worked that fast for most fears. I took 150 mg propranolol for hypertension for some years. While I had a fear of public speaking that involved a racing heart, that aspect of it went away. As time went on and I was doing a lot of public speaking, the fear vanished permanently, so that when I was finally able to get control of my BP by other means and discontinued the propranolol, there was still no fear. So fear of public speaking appears to be a learned behavior that can be unlearned. I don't see anything magical about it, as breaking the cycle of fear producing a racing heart producing more fear seems rather obvious. And as a corollary, if the fear is not associated with a racing heart, then I doubt it would have much effect.
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sentics 22 Aug 2017
in a similar vein: a single day treatment with an abortion-pill normalizes an overstressed-amygdala
Mind_Paralysis 23 Aug 2017
Have you seen the data on Propanolol and the AMYGDALA? If you hit the right dosage, based on your weight, the drug starts affecting the central nervous system, and actually decreases emotional tone! I was looking into the drug previously, because my Ex-Girlfriend has Borderline, which is increasingly being discussed and accepted as a form of neurodevelopmental disorder - something similar to ADHD in a way, but only regarding executive functions governing emotional control.
The theoretical key-regions of the disorder is the AMYGDALA - which has markedly higher activity coming out of it, than in neurotypical controls, as well as the pre-frontal lobe.
It should be mentioned, that even though Propanolol decreases the activity from some norepinephrinergic networks, it also ENHANCES said NE-activity in other networks - so, don't focus too much on the neurotransmitters it affects, but look instead at the brain-region it affects, and what the patients observe when the activity in this region is altered.
The amygdala is where it's at, man.
There are other drugs which affect this region as well - HydroxyNorKetamine, Guanfacine (another cardiac-drug, also used for ADHD, and anxiety caused by stimulants), and even Psilocybin, the psychedelic, decreases amygdala-activity and lowers emotional tone, when taken at PRECISELY the right dosage.
Check out the Borderline-thread for more on this stuff:
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Galaxyshock 06 Dec 2023
Have you seen the data on Propanolol and the AMYGDALA? If you hit the right dosage, based on your weight, the drug starts affecting the central nervous system, and actually decreases emotional tone!
What dosage is required for that?