LONGECITY

Yes, choline may increase acetylcholine (Ach) levels and ACH can make you feel lethargic. I think ACH and dopamine (DA) work against each other and if ACH is high that may make DA seem low.

If you are really lethargic as you described then I think you might consider taking the herb mucuna too. This helps to increase catecholamine levels. I think this herb helps especially in the beginning of the supplementing. The right nutrition is important as well. Vitamin B6 is critical and I think it is important to take both forms, pyrodixine and p-5-p. Other b vitamins can help like riboflavin, folic acid perhaps, thiamine and pantethenic acid. But iron, copper and vitamin C are also important for dopamine levels.

If you find this is really causing problems for you (being lethargic) I think deprenyl can help too.

But I believe that dopamine needs to be balanced with serotonin. I take 5htp at night and take the DLPA during the day.

You have not felt any edginess from tyrosine. Some people can have that experience after taking tyrosine for a couple of days. I tried tyrosine years ago and found it did make me irritable after a couple of doses. But most people find that DLPA is a bit smoother than tyrosine. I think it may be less likely to cause that edginess if it does happen to you.

Well, I do try to take a multi vitiamin at least three times per week for C, Iron, etc., but maybe that is not enough... Got in to see a psychologist -- he agreed with some of you that maybe I have mild/atypical depression (even though I am not sad/suicidal/etc). I really do need to get sleep disorders ruled out too since I do all sorts of things like talk and jaw clench unknowingly.
Questions:

1) QEEG. The doc wanted to run a qEEG test over me to rule out add/adhd and possible locate depression and or sleep disorders. Looks promising the way it can measure brain waves. Problem is, it's not covered by my insurance and costs hundreds of dollars. Any of you have experience with such a test and can you recommend it?

2) Stimulants. Besides caffeine and ephedrine, are there any other US LEGAL (street drugs are out of the question) stimulants that any of can recommend? I need a temporary *quick* fix until this gets sorted because it's really affecting my work and life. Some of you have suggested deprenyl, but that's not cheap and I've already spent over $100 testing various noots. Should I try Yohimbe or does that take time to build up in your system? Caffeine and ephedrine don't usually affect me much and I have to go on "breaks" if I want to see even small results.

It seems from your explanations that you are probably already aware of fish oil, green tea, and cocoa but I just thought I'd throw those out there. They are subtle, but good mood enhancers.

Furthermore, I am reading Erich Fromm's Sane Society, and it might be useful to consider that there is nothing wrong with you, and that you are displaying a normal reaction to a screwed up world. Or maybe that is at least a complicating factor.

OP:

How's your sleep?

OP:

How's your sleep?

Sleep has been okay. Over the past years I've averaged 7-8.5 hours a night with late nights usually only on the weekend. While there's a new baby in the house, he's pretty good most of the time, and my wife is the one that gets up when he cries. Most recently I've also been averaging 8-9 hours a night.

I do have some weird things that go on at night like jaw clenching/grinding, talking in my sleep, even a few sleepwalking/REM Behavioral Disorder episodes. Or maybe this is normal for people these days.

Think about EMSAM, rebuild. Excellent side-effects profile, and reportedly excellent effectiveness. It's selegiline. No dietary restrictions required by the FDA at the 6mg patch, possibly not a big deal at the higher patches either.

How are you doing these days?

>I was talking to my wife last night and she's noticed a lot of similar fatigue/motivation symptoms in herself

You guys have allergies maybe?

Black mold?

>I was talking to my wife last night and she's noticed a lot of similar fatigue/motivation symptoms in herself

You guys have allergies maybe?

Black mold?

That could be a possibility, although I would think the brain fog/fatigue would leave when I travel -- maybe not. I do notice my eyes are usually really red, dry, and sometimes runny (gross) when I wake up.

Still working with docs to troubleshoot what could be going on. Recently had an EEG done and the results seemed to indicate some type of mild ADD problem and possibly mild depression. This strikes me as odd (having ADD), but perhaps it's Sluggish Cognitive Tempo. Apparently the doc I'm seeing has three or so other patients that also have some type of brain fog...

I'm thinking more seriously about meds like Wellbutrin. Perhaps that'll give me a bump in the right direction. Still taking Tyrosine. And while that seems to be helping a bit, it hasn't eliminated the fog (mostly helped with mood). I'm a bit frightened of some of the ADD meds though -- they look pretty dangerous with regards to addiction and abuse.

As far as selegiline is concerned, isn't that stuff pretty expensive? And it's also called Deprenyl too if I remember correctly? If I could get a prescription that would cover the cost I might consider it. Otherwise, I'm probably out of luck.

It's been a while so I figure I should update. =)

As I mentioned I had the QEEG done. Although we didn't send the results to a neurologist, my psychologist looked it over. It showed I had low activity in my prefrontal cortex 1 (PF1) area (front right of brain?). Supposedly, this is the area that socializing, musical enjoyment, and facial recognition are all processed. That would match up with some of my symptoms! Oddly, my psychologist said my memory, visual processing, etc. areas are all normal. Even though I don't' feel this is true, he said it could be thrown off by the PF1 not encoding correctly. He then referred me to a psychiatrist.

I was so reluctant to take this route as I mentioned, but i needed help asap. The psychiatrist seems great so far. He's open to natural supplements and nootropics. The only thing that leaves me nervous is that he's bent on maxing out all doses -- not on FDA recommendations, but if my body can tolerate it. He insists on not categorizing whatever is happening as ADD or whatever. Rather, he's interested in trying to find a treatment that works. The blood work he ordered didn't come back showing to much other than my Vitamin D was a little low, and my glucose was low. I can post actual numbers if anyone cares or is interested.

Currently, he has me up to 50+ mg of Adderall and 450 mg of Wellbutrin. He wants to keep pushing the Adderall dose and use a beta blocker to combat the side effects. Not sure how I feel about that. I won't let him push me past 450 mg of Wellbutrin because I'm already getting a mild ringing in my ears (tinnitus). I'd like to see if he's open to letting me introduce piracetam/choline, DMAE, and maybe some others. He also prescribed L-carnitine (not ALCAR for some reason), but I'm not sure if that's helping.

So far, the majority of the fatigue is gone, and occasionally I get a cognition boost. Part of the problem with this "brain fog" is actually describing how it works or what is happening. The best analogy I can come up with is a scale:

Fatigue Motivation Mild Cog. Normal Cognition
|-----------|------------|------------|-------------|
1............25.............50...........75.........100

Either through stimulants or other factors I move from left to right. Out of fatigue and a slight motivation gain. Next comes a mild cognition boost such as mild creative thinking. Finally, normal cognition including creativity, social enjoyment, high motivation and zero fatigue. Lately I seem to be consistently between 25 and 50 which is better than before (1-25).

Any comments are greatly welcomed. I hope my continuing story is also some use to those battling the same thing.

Are you taking the wellbutrin for depression or for the ADD? From what I've read, wellbutrin doesn't work too well for ADD but is prescribed for it. That is the reason why I had asked. Also, 450mg a day is quite a lot. I'm surprised the 50 or more mgs of adderall a day isn't helping your motivation and fatigue.

I would get off the wellbutrin. I've read in the forums that wellbutrin can make some people's ADD worse. This may what be happening to you. The wellbutrin is 'possibly' screwing with the positive side-effects of the adderall. Talk to you psychologist about tapering off of the wellbutrin and ultimately upping your adderall dose.

It could also be that adderall isn't the right drug for you. It doesn't work for everyone. Methylphenidate has a 80% success rate with regard to AD/HD. The thing with these medications is that you should always go to a different stim if the current one is not working well or is giving you intolerable negative side-effects or serious negative side-effects.

I've read that adderall is one of the best, but I believe methylphenidate is better for long term use. I will be starting on focalin probably next week. It is dexmethylphenidate. It only has the d-isomer type of methylphenidate. It is void of the l-isomer which is thought to be responsible for the negative peripheral side-effects. I can't wait.

Well yeah, if 450mgs of Wellbutrin and 50mg of Adderall isn't working then there may be something very serious.

Are you taking the wellbutrin for depression or for the ADD?  From what I've read, wellbutrin doesn't work too well for ADD but is prescribed for it.  That is the reason why I had asked.  Also, 450mg a day is quite a lot.  I'm surprised the 50 or more mgs of adderall a day isn't helping your motivation and fatigue.

It's hard to say if I even have ADD or depression. I would lean more toward a depression since I just feel zero passion over everything in life and am very tired. I'm not "sad" though... You could say the fatigue makes it hard to maintain attention, I suppose. Also, it's not that the wellbutrin and adderall have zero effect on me. That debilitating fatigue is very rare now that I started the meds. However, I still have a ways to go from a cognition standpoint (memory, creativity, socializing, etc.). I think I just adapt quickly since I usually feel improvements after a dose increase.

The doc added Requip to the mix last night. It's for restless leg syndrome, but according to Wikipedia is a non-ergoline dopamine agonist. I think he's going in the right direction -- definitely seems like I'm low on dopamine. He also mentioned Mirapex if Requip doesn't work.

Interesting note about Methylphenidate. I'll have to check that out later. Why is it better for a long term approach in your opinion? That's one of my concerns. It doesn't seem like long term use of amphetamines would be healthy for the brain.

spacey, even though I am getting a mild benefit from them, it does seem strange that it isn't more profound. Thanks for the warning. If we keep increasing only to have me adapt within days there might be something else. But by serious, what were you implying?