LONGECITY

Also, many ethnic groups in the world today are genetically dissimilar to hunter-gatherers because of thousands of years of agriculture in their recent ancestry.  People who retain the lactase enzyme through adulthood, and that can remain thin with ad lib access to high carbohydrate food just aren't cavemen anymore.

In evolutionary terms, the difference between modern and pre-agricultural humans is minimal, and I doubt you could find more than a handful of genes that have changed in any population since the agricultural revolution.

Certainly, no one's suggesting that a caveman diet will lead to immortality.

However, it's undoubtedly closer to optimal than an agricultural diet, and even more so than a corn-syrup-infused fast-food crazy-high-carbohydrate give-me-my-diabetes-right-now American diet.

However, it's undoubtedly closer to optimal than an agricultural diet, and even more so than a corn-syrup-infused fast-food crazy-high-carbohydrate give-me-my-diabetes-right-now American diet.

Our agricultural system can now produce everything that "cavemen" used to eat, and we don't have to risk our lives in the wilderness, so it is very beneficial in that regard. And on another level, our agricultural system (milk included) is what has made us masters of the planet and brought us to the precipice of biological immortality. Without it, we would still be........well, cavemen.

Unfortunately, many people are unable to resist the lure of high calorie abundant food, but that is not a fault of the agricultural system. People can choose to be healthy. Just look at Imminsters.

Also, many ethnic groups in the world today are genetically dissimilar to hunter-gatherers because of thousands of years of agriculture in their recent ancestry.  People who retain the lactase enzyme through adulthood, and that can remain thin with ad lib access to high carbohydrate food just aren't cavemen anymore.

In evolutionary terms, the difference between modern and pre-agricultural humans is minimal...

In nutrition terms it is huge. One need look no further than the difference in obesity and diabetes incidence in people with native American ancestry vs. European ancestry living in modern agriculture economies. Clearly certain populations have undergone dramatic genetic adaptation to agriculture.

Certainly, no one's suggesting that a caveman diet will lead to immortality.

However, it's undoubtedly closer to optimal than an agricultural diet, and even more so than a corn-syrup-infused fast-food crazy-high-carbohydrate give-me-my-diabetes-right-now American diet.

Straw man. I'm not defending the typical American diet. I'm just saying that here in the 21st Century we can look at the optimum diet question through more sophisticated eyes than just saying let's look at what cavemen ate. That a caveman diet is better than a typical American diet is more a testament to how bad the typical Amercian diet is rather than theoretical merit of prehistoric nutrition.

http://www.milksucks.com/

Yikes! That website scares me for all the wrong reasons ... it's clearly a PETA front site, and I really don't have any respect for PETA whatsoever.

I've often had my mind changed by well-documented science, but far less often by this kind of cheap anti-corporate fearmongering and hatemongering.

I highly recommend everyone watch the documentary "The Corporation", it has a great segment on rgbh treated cows.

If anyone wants me to send it to them, PM me. They encourage the sharing of it.

I don't agree with this statement. It is not a sound logical argument to reject the drinking of milk. In nature every animal utilizes/exploits whatever source of nutrients it can find. Most animals in "nature" do not drink cow's milk for the simple fact that they cannot. They don't have the mental capacity or social organization to domesticate, herd, and harvest milk from other animals (come to think of it, there are some insects that do harvest fluids from other animals/insects) (another rambling aside: predators drink milk when they kill other lactating mammals, small amounts obviously, but they sure don't aviod it because it is "unnatural' for an adult animal to consume milk, lol). The closest analogue I can think of is eggs. Many animals in nature steal/harvest the egss of other animals because it is a source of food within their "reach". Humans have the capability to take this one step further and domesticate prolific egg producing species (chickens) and thus have developed a stable source of food.

Now if you want to reject milk based on nutritional content or modern practices that result in extra hormones and antibiotics, go ahead. That makes more sense. I consume dairy products, but not as much as in the past. I love cheese. It is hard to go without.




Love the creativity!! [thumb]

Hehe, I love cheese too and I agree, it is very hard to go without. I figured someone would bring up the egg bit, but my rationalization is that it's just as much available for eating as a berry on a bush. Literally, the eggs just sit there in a nest, waiting for the grabbing.

Milk, however, doesn't afford itself to drinking as an egg or other product is available for eating. We don't have a biological trigger like animals/insects do to farm those liquids from other living organisms that are important for their continued existence. I think it would be interesting to research lifespans, rates of cancer, heart problems, etc. in cultures around the world that don't drink milk and compare with a society like ours that ingests massive amounts of dairy. Granted it'd be hard to make a valid study out of it because we have many more confounding health factors in our society than what dairy may potentially be capable of, but it'd be something to look at nonetheless. But perhaps the whole dairy argument of why you shouldn't ingest it (excluding the growth hormone reasoning) would fall into the same line of thinking that the best diet is a meat-free diet. This is probably true, but I'm sure as heck not giving up meat anytime soon, hehe.

They also had an average lifespan of 20 years. To say that the way to live much longer than your ancestors is to eat just like them is illogical. You better do something different!

By the way, the only reason certain people remain lactose tolerant throughout life is precisely because their ancestors maintained dairy herds for thousands of years. It is an evolutionary adaptation. People that can drink milk through adulthood are genetically adapted to drink animal milk.

It was actually around 35, and was in Europe, in the Middle Ages. Europe at this time was very unsanitary and strife with war, disease, famine, and plagues. Very, vary narrow analysis, and no research to back any of it up. I suggest you look into India, China, Japan, etc. -- these people have had very long lifetimes throughout history, assuming there was peace in the country. If you look to the Bible as a source of history as some do, it would seem that at some point we've had lives that commonly spanned across centuries.

As far as genetic adaptation to milk--the fact that people were lactose-intolerant to begin with could be evidence that we weren't intended to drink milk due to other dangers that it may cause. So, the body outright rejecting it could be seen as a defense mechanism against future disease, cancer, etc. that lactose-based products can bring on. Since evolution is not uniform and is confounded by geography (over 90% of black folks are lactose-intolerant from what I recall reading), it is hard to say. You can totally flip it around and say that lactose-intolerance was a developed adaptation in response to lactose-ingestion to protect the body. I'm just throwing stuff out there, I'm no scientist...but don't mind a good discussion on it.

Actually, nobody is more against drinking milk than me. But, the argument about rBST recently has turned out to be bogus because it is destroyed during digestion:

http://news.yahoo.co...4LA7MvlE4Ws0NUE

which says:

"When precocious puberty entered the radar screen in the early 1990s, the first suspects were hormones in milk and meats, particularly the artificial bovine growth hormone, rBGH. But this is a protein hormone, destroyed in human digestion, not a steroid hormone like estrogen

I tend to like foods with dairy but which are naturally more safe. Even, if there's bacteria in cheese on pizza, lasagna, etc it's safe since it has been cooked!

Can someone confirm for me if in fact non rBGH milk does nothing for IGF-1 levels?

I cannot find a clear answer on this. Some say all milk, some say no milk.

Since milk and yogurt are more or less the mainstay of my diet, and I love butter and cheese, although I do them in moderation due to the high caloric content, I can't imagine going without it. To me, milk (and the products made from it), is the perfect food, being animal protein without the animal having to give his life for it.

"the argument about rBST recently has turned out to be bogus because it is destroyed during digestion"

What great news. Now I can drink my milk worry free.

Raw milk is still risky, even for people who claim to be providing the highest quality raw milk:

http://www.kansascit...ory/391699.html

87 people were sickened by raw milk or cheese made from raw milk. Which is only the latest of many outbreaks in Kansas sickening more than a thousand in the last ten years:

http://www.foodsafet...tbreakTable.pdf

The science on the "extra" provided by raw milk over pasteurized milk is difficult to nail down. Can someone who knows more on the actual science contribute something more than unsubstantiated claims?

Can the antibodies in raw milk survive an adult human's digestive tract to be taken up as additional immune capabilities?
Do cow antibodies provide any benefit to adult humans?
How much is bioavailability is lost by the denaturing of enzymes in milk?

There are probably some other questions I'm missing, so feel free to ask other questions or to provide the scientifically established benefits of raw milk over pasteurized milk. Personally, I've been reading raw milk advocacy websites while writing this posting, and none of these "advantages" seem credible. But I'm willing to be taught and happy to be shown to be wrong.

Alert, Alert Air is bad. It contails oxygen which causes oxidation to the human body. Sorry guys, I could not resist but it is how I feel about this topic. Anything in excess can be harmfull.

Alert, Alert Air is bad. It contails oxygen which causes oxidation to the human body. Sorry guys, I could not resist but it is how I feel about this topic. Anything in excess can be harmfull.

Alert, alert, we've entered the 21st century and we are now aware of such things called "chronic disease."

Alert, Alert Air is bad. It contails oxygen which causes oxidation to the human body. Sorry guys, I could not resist but it is how I feel about this topic. Anything in excess can be harmfull.

Alert, alert, we've entered the 21st century and we are now aware of such things called "chronic disease."

What?

Alert, Alert Air is bad. It contails oxygen which causes oxidation to the human body. Sorry guys, I could not resist but it is how I feel about this topic. Anything in excess can be harmfull.

Alert, alert, we've entered the 21st century and we are now aware of such things called "chronic disease."

What?

I really hate when someone comes in a thread with a wise-ass comment like this. How about you define anything in excess? Perhaps anything in excess is one cup of milk a day over a few years, slowly building a problem in your body. It is foolish to ingest artificial cow hormones just because you like the taste of milk. It's your body to do what you wish with, however. Just don't complain when you contract a disease and wonder "Why me?". Everything that happens to us in life is a result of personal decision outside of our younger years when our parents took care of us.

Let me tell you folks, all eating and drinking is habitual. I used to go through a gallon of milk in a week, just for myself. Sometimes less. I loved milk. I haven't drinken milk in quite some time now (outside of the rare milkshake at a restaurant/ice cream shoppe), and now never have the urge for it. I instead have an urge for a cup of spring water. I probably won't ever sacrifice all dairy, but I can definitely greatly minimize it and straight-out eliminate certain aspects.

.
Edited by edward, 15 December 2007 - 12:32 AM.

This is definitely an interesting topic and a deceptively simple one. Milk itself is a complex substance and simply declaring it bad all bad is rather simplistic. As a few people mentioned, in order to have an intelligent discussion we need to break down "Milk" into potential offenders as healthnutty started to do and then we can systematically go through each.

1. Casein (milk protein) in general ~other than slowing digestion and in general being not very bioavailable I don't see the problem

2. Abnormal Protein fragments ~a little skeptical on this and the whole A1 A2 thing

3. Lactose ~personally I drink Hood Carb Countdown Milk which contains very little sugar of any kind

4. Pasteurization creating AGE's (note that high temp cooking of protein carbohydrate mixtures seems to cause this so its almost impossible to avoid)

5. Hormones/Chemicals in Milk due to modern processes

a. rBGH ~protein based hormones are generally broken down by HCL in the stomach
b. estrogen and related compounds ~this is an issue as they can survive digestion and get absorbed and I really dont want any excess estrogen
c. antibiotics ~the small amount that makes it into milk is personally not a concern (ill take my probiotics and im sure ill be ok)
d. etc. etc.

6. The potential for milk to prevent absorption of nutrients/supplement (green tea etc.) due to casein protein?
~ if worried don't consume milk before or after taking supplements

7. Saturated Fat (can be ameliorated by drinking skim or low fat) ~personally I have never drank anything above 1% milk so not an issue


Then once we nail down these issues we can move on to whether or not yogurt, cheese, kefir etc. have the same issues

Personally I love dairy, I eat a lot of yogurt and kefir and I eat a lot of cereal (now only organic varieties, no niacinamide, no stuff I don't want) and I use Hood Carb Countdown fat free milk on my cereal and go through about a gallon a week. The Hood milk is ultra filtered, has added whey protein, is virtually lactose and sugar free (only a few grams total sugar). Seems like a good product and not very expensive. For now I am thinking about this issue but have not changed my dietary habits because of it.

edit: I'm off to have a bowl of cereal
Edited by edward, 15 December 2007 - 01:03 AM.

1. Casein (milk protein) in general ~other than slowing digestion and in general being not very bioavailable I don't see the problem

2. Abnormal Protein fragments ~a little skeptical on this and the whole A1 A2 thing

3. Lactose ~personally I drink Hood Carb Countdown Milk which contains very little sugar of any kind

4. Pasteurization creating AGE's (note that high temp cooking of protein carbohydrate mixtures seems to cause this so its almost impossible to avoid)

5. Hormones/Chemicals in Milk due to modern processes

a. rBGH ~protein based hormones are generally broken down by HCL in the stomach
b. estrogen and related compounds ~this is an issue as they can survive digestion and get absorbed and I really dont want any excess estrogen
c. antibiotics ~the small amount that makes it into milk is personally not a concern (ill take my probiotics and im sure ill be ok)
d. etc. etc.

6. The potential for milk to prevent absorption of nutrients/supplement (green tea etc.) due to casein protein?
~ if worried don't consume milk before or after taking supplements

7. Saturated Fat (can be ameliorated by drinking skim or low fat) ~personally I have never drank anything above 1% milk so not an issue

You forgot:

8. Iodine, which is the apparently the culprit in milk-related acne breakouts in some individuals, myself included (http://www.scienceda...51207181144.htm)
Edited by resveratrol, 15 December 2007 - 01:24 AM.

I can only relate a personal experience that as time has passed, turned out to be more than just a personal experience.

When I was 13, I had absolutely horrific bouts of abdominal pain that would strike and go away seemingly at random. The Doc wasn't sure what it was - my appendix was fine all other internal organs were ok, then he hit on the idea that maybe I had an ulcer. at 13. It went unresolved for a while (the doc had died in a plane crash and the new one was not very interested in the problem apparently).

After getting out of the service, the problem started coming back even worse and a new doc said it was a combo deal - both severe gastritis and esophageal reflux. Zantac took care of the reflux but the gastritis remained. Then one day I was looking over a file I encountered on some BBS (you know the good ol' pre-internet days...) that talked about the horrors of milk. I was a big milk drinker - whole and occasionally the 2% stuff. So I figured, It couldn't hurt to stop. And the gastritis went away. After 25 years of problems, I finally figured out that I couldn't drink milk. No doctor even hinted at such a thing.

So after while of no milk I tried just one glass and whammo, I got "the foul wind" so fierce that I became a human bio-weapon. Figured, hey, I must be lactose intolerant, OK, no milk for me.

Only the test I was given a couple years later says I'm not lactose intolerant. Doc can't really explain why my guts act like milk is liquid evil, but they do. Since then I have met others who have discovered the same thing. Go figure.

Still it's hard to convince a school that my daughter (who appears to have the same problem) should not have milk. They don't provide any alternative.

Thing is, milk's goodness or lack thereof depends a *lot* on your individual biochemistry.

Despite the paleolithic arguments that have been raised, milk-tolerance clearly varies greatly from population to population. Most Africans are highly lactose-intolerant. But the Maasai, Dinka and Luo tribes flourish on it.

Probably most people should stick to hard cheese. A few should avoid dairy entirely. But for a few people - say if your ancestors were Finnish, Welsh, Irish or East African - a lot of dairy is probably actually beneficial.

I know anecdotes are pretty worthless, but since I started consuming obscene amounts of milk, yogurt and cottage cheese, everyday, my complexion and general health have improved considerably.

This is one of those cases, I think, where it varies greatly from individual to individual.

Thing is, milk's goodness or lack thereof depends a *lot* on your individual biochemistry.
This is one of those cases, I think, where it varies greatly from individual to individual.

I have to agree.
I love milk and dairy.
I've been drinking it my entire adult life and I am in stellar health.
No bone loss, and I'm smalled boned so I am at high risk for bone loss, good teeth and just all around
healthy when others my age are falling apart.
& BTW there's no sleep aid better than hot milk and honey before bed.
Now, discovering it's a preferred carrier for resveratrol, it's perfect.

Edited by missminni, 22 December 2007 - 01:29 AM.

from my personal experience from drinking milk right from the cow, neither pasteurized or homogenized. ever since i was little (im 28 now) i have lived on a farm and my dad is an old school farmer so he would know alotta dairy farmers as we were beef, well he would go right into the 500gallon barrel that the milk comes into, and draw gallons of milk right from the tubes that transport the milk from the udders!! pretty good stuff, absolutly love it, am in GREAT shape, 6'4", 290, no acne and BP/Chlolesterol never a prob..I will not drink anything but whole milk, skim tastes too much like water!! to anyone who says milk is bad for you..."dont have a cow man"- bart simpson


meat

So after while of no milk I tried just one glass and whammo, I got "the foul wind" so fierce that I became a human bio-weapon. Figured, hey, I must be lactose intolerant, OK, no milk for me.

Only the test I was given a couple years later says I'm not lactose intolerant. Doc can't really explain why my guts act like milk is liquid evil, but they do. Since then I have met others who have discovered the same thing. Go figure.

It's relatively easy to see if it's the lactose causing the problem: try some lactose-free milk. If you or your daughter still have the effects, it's one of the other constituents. Butter and hard cheese (sharp cheddar, colby, parmesan, etc.) are lactose-free, so if it's the lactose that's a problem, those should also be safe for you and your daughter. I wouldn't necessarily trust a single test, especially for something as potentially variable as lactose intolerance, as evidence of absence.

I am blessed with a digestion that loves and appreciates milk, and now that I've read up on the benefits of fats, specifically saturated fats and animal fats, I buy whole milk unapologetically (I used to buy 2% and apologize to my mom for not drinking skim). If anything, now that I've been embracing animal proteins and fats and radically cutting back on carbs, my digestion is much calmer and less obnoxious overall. I used to joke about "destroying the bathroom" whenever I went in there, but now there's not much to get embarrassed about.