LONGECITY

I don't think faith, in and of itself, deserves any respect. However, people (faithful or otherwise) do. If some people value comfort higher than objective truth, they have a right to that decision and whatever irrational beliefs come along with it. I just wish I could figure out a way to stop them from imposing their arbitrary value systems on everyone else.

you offend peoples deeply held beleifs, and chances are theyre not gonna like you much. perhaps that doesnt matter to you.

I'm sure people who have religious beliefs would get offended, i have found that deeply religious people are some of the most closed minded people even worse than uneducated people that i've met. I suppose i'll upset someone with that opinion, if so, i would say they offend me with their beliefs and how they try to force them on others, and if you don't agree, they don't want nothing to do with you or get really angry with you. Sad if you ask me.

you offend peoples deeply held beliefs, and chances are they're not gonna like you much.

We should not forget that most individuals are not capable of making a open minded analysis of this subject.
So I think, yes, we should respect the result of the effect religions had on the general population. They cannot be held responsible for the state they are in, the limited view they have. If we do not show any level of respect to this form of faith, we will never be able to influence the behaviour that's imposed by it. Among other issues, this behaviour is the basis, the most important factor of success, for the inflexibility of religious institutions.

The result of not respecting faith is increase of polarisation, which will not lead to a possibility to change.

A civilized "agree to disagree" would be my stance towards religion.
Edited by brainbox, 01 December 2007 - 10:54 PM.

I respect faithful people but not faith itself. I don't consider faith to be noble or a good thing. I accept the fact that irrationality constitute a large part of the human thinking and I don't condemn people for that.

noun: a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny (Example: "He lost his faith but not his morality")
noun: institution to express belief in a divine power (Example: "A member of his own faith contradicted him")

If this is how faith is defined then no, I don't think it deserves any respect. I respect other people, but not their faith.

The general consensus so far from what I read in these relies is that people do not generally respect faith but respect the people with faiths. I guess that is one of the major themes in the above video. Respect people and their own perception of reality but if they step in and try to impose their perception of reality onto you you then does that person still deserve your respect? Isn't it disrespectful for them to tell you that your perception is wrong and that you are bad for thinking this way?

I have some pretty strong views that are very similar to Pat Condell's views. If someone of faith tries to impose their reality onto mine I will kindly advise them that I do not see it that way. If they tell me, for example, that it is the word of GOD or whomever and hence the truth I will tell them I do not believe in GOD and hence the word of GOD does not exist and so on.

I do not like any form of reality imposed on to me. Not my girlfriends reality related to how I should spend my money or not my mothers sense of reality on how I should wear my hair. This is my reality and people need to respect that.

I don’t believe the irrational faith, as defined in most dictionaries, deserves a lot of respect. Faith as something else, like a confidence in science or humanity, is something respectable.

I don’t believe the irrational faith, as defined in most dictionaries, deserves a lot of respect. Faith as something else, like a confidence in science or humanity, is something respectable.

That is the difference in "Faith" and faith. "Faith" is defined as proof without evidence, and that is what religious people believe in. (and even find it admirable to believe in. The lowercase faith is that for physics, bioscience, etc, and is based on evidence and the faith that science will progress. It is a much higher order (imo) and based on reason and evidence.

This is a very sensitive subject. I do not respect such faiths, but i do respect other people. What i mean by sensitive is that if we argue with someone over let's say religion, we have to show (if we don't respect them, pretend you do) a lot of respect and sympathy for the person, so they won't close even more their minds and may by a miracle of "god" (not their god, though :biggrin: ) think a bit logically.

Faith as something else, like a confidence in science or humanity, is something respectable.

Yessireebob, a faith based on knowledge rather than servitude, that faith makes sense. As far as I can tell the basic definition of a religious belief is something that is believed relatively fervently. I would like people to wake up and see the value of life in general, the value of the healthy and sustained existence of our biosphere and hold that belief with conviction. As far as I can tell much of what passes for religion today is basically mob mentality, the beliefs are not held strongly, just the belief that assembling in masses brings comfort and power. Seems to me this is why we find people who claim strong religious belief seem to foment some of the least moral events. They are more buying into anarchy and seeking to be a part of the meanest and most forceful alliances in their allegiance to power over grace. I don't see it as any indication of basic evil on the behalf of humans, just misunderstanding. Highly powerful beings who are out of touch with the morality that science indicates, finding power more valuable than reason, facilitate powerful violence.

I call myself a non-secular humanist. I see science indicating a spiritual and moral imperative, reason and rationality being the best path to pursue for the development of indeterminate life spans.

The reason why people think that faith deserves respect, is because faith is the most/ one of the most important things in a believer's life. Therefore, if you bash on it, you are most likely to create a great conflict with the faith's practitioner. Generally, it's in our genes and our education to avoid unncessary conflicts. Stay away from talking about one's faith, and stay away from making enemies! Voila, everybody's happy! Ehh, not really...

Respect people and their own perception of reality but if they step in and try to impose their perception of reality onto you you then does that person still deserve your respect? Isn't it disrespectful for them to tell you that your perception is wrong and that you are bad for thinking this way?

It goes both ways.

The reason why people think that faith deserves respect, is because faith is the most/ one of the most important things in a believer's life. Therefore, if you bash on it, you are most likely to create a great conflict with the faith's practitioner. Generally, it's in our genes and our education to avoid unncessary conflicts. Stay away from talking about one's faith, and stay away from making enemies! Voila, everybody's happy! Ehh, not really...

Good post braz. This is true. Do you think that bashing an atheist's faith in the absence of faith would cause conflict as well?
Edited by luv2increase, 23 December 2007 - 01:13 AM.

Hahaha... that was so awesome, he said it just like it is

he said the problem with religion is that it imposes a moral structure, so, what alternative moral structure does atheism provide? I mean, how does society make such a fundamental change to such a massive memeplex without everything collapsing into chaos?

you can't just bring everything down, because on what basis will it be built back up? Something else equally fallacious, and probably more evil.

Did you see the Southpark, where Cartman freezes himself and is revived 500 years in the future? Richard Dawkins converted everyone to atheism so in the future instead of people having wars and killing each other in the name of religion, its a bunch of people doing the exact same shit except instead of saying "God damn it" or "God help me" they say "Science damn it" or "Science help me", and have wars and kill each other in the name of "Science".

one's faith generally outlines a pretty specific moral/motivational code from which answers to moral/motivational questions can be derived
Edited by Savage, 23 December 2007 - 07:36 AM.

from what other sources could we possibly derive moral/motivational code with any reliability other than from pure hedonism, except from "the God"- who will judge you and send you to either heaven or hell.

trashing God gives screwed up people less reason to straighten out
Edited by Savage, 23 December 2007 - 08:01 AM.

blah
Edited by Savage, 23 December 2007 - 08:02 AM.

equally fallacious, and probably more evil.

Like Islam! Good idea neo-Atheists, lets trash christianity so we can let the Islamofascists take over instead!

..Haha

Hahaha... that was so awesome, he said it just like it is

he said the problem with religion is that it imposes a moral structure, so, what alternative moral structure does atheism provide? I mean, how does society make such a fundamental change to such a massive memeplex without everything collapsing into chaos?

you can't just bring everything down, because on what basis will it be built back up? Something else equally fallacious, and probably more evil.

Did you see the Southpark, where Cartman freezes himself and is revived 500 years in the future? Richard Dawkins converted everyone to atheism so in the future instead of people having wars and killing each other in the name of religion, its a bunch of people doing the exact same shit except instead of saying "God damn it" or "God help me" they say "Science damn it" or "Science help me", and have wars and kill each other in the name of "Science".

one's faith generally outlines a pretty specific moral/motivational code from which answers to moral/motivational questions can be derived

Atheism doesn't provide moral structure in the same way you probably don't base your morality on your non-belief in Zeus. Meanwhile, not binding oneself to a belief in a supernatural power is essential for free-thinking. Atheism clear the place for Humanist values. If you need to fear God and eternal damnation to behave well with others, you are far from being a moral person. I derive most of my moral from two simple thing: Empathy and the idea that I'm responsible for my own actions. If I do something wrong and immoral, I have to live all my life with it. I cannot tell my "sins" to a stranger and be forgived. Tell me what's evil my philosophy?

We are willing to stoop so low as to poison the unformed minds ....

Nice video,

but I disagree with it, faith is relative... faith deserves respect but not because of what it represents to the faithful, but instead for being a system that usually produces positive influences on the masses, and is a structure you can hang all your sorrows on and allows people to continue living after negative events.

Without some sort of structure in place (Western religion, Pagan or other type of faith...) children that become men (I believe) will simply have more issues with society in general.

Does faith deserve respect? Yes, it provides coping methods that other things don't in that particular person's life. If you attack it, in many instances you are attacking their reason for living... something a person will defend unquestionably (thats when they will put on the blinders... and reach for the baseball bat.)

Once the baseball bat is squarely in their hands, it's almost impossible to appeal to their positive religious nature, and you have likely lost the debate and possibly your head at this point.

A

In general I think Pat Condell is talking about blind faith that lacks logic and reason

Thanks for sharing that video.

One thing I really hate is when people label their kids, before they have any choice in the matter as belonging to a certain religion, faith or whatever. It is interesting that everyone of my friends are Athiests too, and we all went to a catholic high school. I never even knew they didn't believe in god or anything until last year! Actually I don't think I know anyone personally that believes in god anymore. I guess that would different if I lived in the US!

I don't think I could ever believe in a god anymore, I would be lying to myself, kidding myself, If I say I were to at some point in my life that I thought god exists.

Though that is not to say I wouldn't like a god to exist.
Edited by Matt, 27 December 2007 - 07:04 AM.

and we all went to a catholic high school

After being subjected to Satan's Counterfeit Christianity on a daily basis for years during the most vulnerable period of your life, you're very lucky that an atheist is all you've become. Most of my friends and relatives attended Catholic schools too. Many could not stand the harsh treatment of the nuns and pressured their parents to permit them to attend public schools.

I don't think I could ever believe in a god anymore, I would be lying to myself, kidding myself, If I say I were to at some point in my life that I thought god exists.

Though that is not to say I wouldn't like a god to exist.

Don't give up on the idea. God certainly exists. Start reading some of the literature that teaches a message directly opposite of the Catholic church. See, for example, http://www.gnmagazin...itreq/index.htm.

and we all went to a catholic high school

After being subjected to Satan's Counterfeit Christianity on a daily basis for years during the most vulnerable period of your life,

Why doesn't God tell those "counterfeit chritians" that they are wrong? Many of them communicate with their God in the same or better way as "real" christians do. Similar personal communication with the exact same deity also happens within Judaism, why hasn't Jahve/Jehova told those pious jews that they are actually currently wrong?

...usually produces positive influences on the masses, and is a structure you can hang all your sorrows on and allows people to continue living after negative events.

Without some sort of structure in place (Western religion, Pagan or other type of faith...) children that become men (I believe) will simply have more issues with society in general...

I am unsure how much any of this is true. It is much like the idea that we get our morals from a book. It may be convenient in our culture that it instead of something else is used as a coping strategy.

If you need to fear God and eternal damnation to behave well with others, you are far from being a moral person. I

Maybe most people recognize that they are not moral people.

and that a lot of really immoral people would whine about getting pwned for no reason... you gotta tell them something they will understand... haha
Edited by Savage, 28 December 2007 - 01:00 AM.

I'm not saying that religions aren't a crock of ridiculous BS, I'm just saying this is America, so if you have something better you are free to sell it to the masses.

You have to have some form of respect for the best systems in the industry... they are logically better than the worse systems in the industry anyway.

If you don't vote for the turd sandwich, you are going to be stuck with a giant douche.
Edited by Savage, 28 December 2007 - 01:11 AM.

and we all went to a catholic high school

After being subjected to Satan's Counterfeit Christianity on a daily basis for years during the most vulnerable period of your life,

Why doesn't God tell those "counterfeit chritians" that they are wrong? Many of them communicate with their God in the same or better way as "real" christians do. Similar personal communication with the exact same deity also happens within Judaism, why hasn't Jahve/Jehova told those pious jews that they are actually currently wrong?

That's what the book of Revelation and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ is all about. It's the putting away of the counterfeit Christianity and replacing it with the true version. See, for example, http://www.gnmagazine.org/booklets/RV/.