Taking Stimulants & Nootropics
Rags847
05 Aug 2008
(Master Thread Series. Instead of good information spread out here and there in threads over 84 pages now, how about Master Threads where all discussion under a certain topic could go and develop. This would cut down on the repetitiveness of newbies and others asking the same questions over and over and make it easier to discover useful information.)
Topic of this thread: Co-administering substances of the stimulant class (amphetamine, methylphenidate, etc) and Nootropics.
The science: What is the biochemistry of both classes of substances and what would likely be their interaction with each other (synergy, no interaction, interference)?
Anecdotes: If you have utilized both types of substances, what did you experience and self-observe?
Edited by zoolander, 10 August 2008 - 10:45 PM.
Topic of this thread: Co-administering substances of the stimulant class (amphetamine, methylphenidate, etc) and Nootropics.
The science: What is the biochemistry of both classes of substances and what would likely be their interaction with each other (synergy, no interaction, interference)?
Anecdotes: If you have utilized both types of substances, what did you experience and self-observe?
Edited by zoolander, 10 August 2008 - 10:45 PM.
Rags847
05 Aug 2008
My personal interest is in taking D-Amphetamine or D-Methylphenidate with Piracetam/CDP-Choline. I have tried each seperately and I have had excellent and distinct results from each. I now want to see if all the positive effects of both are sustainable when they are taken together. Anyone know the biochemistry or have anecdotal experiences?
The only study I have been able to dig up is this one from 1991:
1: Acta Physiol Pharmacol Bulg. 1991;17(4):17-26.Links
Modulation of the effects on learning and memory of nootropic drugs and central stimulants when applied together.
Petkov VD, Konstantinova E, Petkov VV, Lazarova M, Petkova B. Institute of Physiology, Bulgarian Academy of Sciences, Sofia.
In experiments on rats using passive avoidance with punishment reinforcement (step-through) and two-way active avoidance with punishment reinforcement (shuttle-box), we examined the effects on acquisition and retention of different combinations of the nootropic drugs meclofenoxate (Mf), citicholine (CCh), piracetam (Pc), the structural analogues of aniracetam p-P and p-F, standardized extract from ginseng roots (PG) and the psychostimulants caffeine (Caf) and amphetamine (Amph). Favorable effects (more pronounced improvement of learning and/or memory as compared to that caused by the drugs when given alone) were in some cases obtained by the combination Mf+Caf, Pc+Caf, CCh+Caf, p-F+Caf, Mf+CCh, as well as by the combination Mf+PG applied to rats with electroconvulsive shock-induced amnesia. However, in some cases the combined administration of two drugs with favorable effects on memory did not led to summation or potentiation but rather to disappearance of these effects. This was observed under certain experimental conditions with some combinations of Caf and CCh, Mf, Pc and p-P and with some combinations of Amph and Mf. Based on our earlier results and data in the literature, we present some considerations about the role of the neurotransmitter mechanisms of action of the drugs tested as neurochemical correlates of their effects on memory. It is suggested that the unfavorable results obtained in some cases with combinations of nootropics and psychostimulants are due to the possible disturbance of selective acquisition by the psychostimulant drug.
Can anyone further elucidate or add to theses last two lines?
I don't know how meaningful or true are these two studies below, saying that both stimulants and nootropics excite the CNS, but the stimulants destabilise and the nootropics stabilise (an previously unstabilised system).
1: Methods Find Exp Clin Pharmacol. 1987 Mar;9(3):173-82.Links
Are nootropics a separate class of drugs? A differentiation in various models.
Herrmann WM, Coper H. Psychostimulants, analeptics, and nootropics are three classes of drugs that have been used with varying success in the treatment of impaired brain functions. They all produce an excitatory and disinhibitory effect on the CNS but can be distinguished through their characteristic properties. Psychostimulants are drugs that lead to a general, but nonphysiological activation, which is followed by a phase of inhibition. Analeptics are drugs that stimulate the CNS, in particular the respiratory and circulatory centers, and which in high doses lead to convulsions. Nootropics are drugs that (in impaired brain functions) lead to a physiological activation of adaptation.
1: Pharmacopsychiatry. 1988 Sep;21(5):211-7.Links
Psychostimulants, analeptics, nootropics: an attempt to differentiate and assess drugs designed for the treatment of impaired brain functions.
Coper H, Herrmann WM. Institute for Neuropsychopharmacology, Free University of Berlin, West.
The common characteristic properties of psychostimulants, analeptics, and nootropics are excitatory and disinhibitory effects on the central nervous system. The differences lie in the type of excitatory effect. Psychostimulants produce a general, yet nonphysiologic, activation with subsequent sedation. They generally act in a destabilising manner, disturbing the homoeostatic functions of centrally regulated reactions. Nootropics produce a physiological activation of disturbed or reduced adaptation functions. They have a stabilising effect, increasing the homoeostatic functions of the centrally regulated reactions that have become susceptible to disturbances. Analeptics differ from psychostimulants and nootropics. The effects of neuronal excitation or disinhibition are mainly restricted to the respiratory and circulatory systems. In high dosages they produce convulsions and corresponding motor reactions. No conclusive evidence for a general efficacy in the treatment of organic mental disorders has been furnished for any of the three drug classes. Yet there is sufficient proof that nootropics, unlike psychostimulants and analeptics, can produce therapeutic results in at least some patients, even if it is not yet clear under what conditions they can be meaningfully applied. There is a fundamental difference between the three groups with regard to the potential for abuse. While tolerance and extreme physiological dependence can occur rapidly under treatment with psychostimulants, such risks are not a typical feature of nootropics or analeptics.
Edited by Rags847, 05 August 2008 - 12:44 AM.
The only study I have been able to dig up is this one from 1991:
1: Acta Physiol Pharmacol Bulg. 1991;17(4):17-26.Links
Modulation of the effects on learning and memory of nootropic drugs and central stimulants when applied together.
Petkov VD, Konstantinova E, Petkov VV, Lazarova M, Petkova B. Institute of Physiology, Bulgarian Academy of Sciences, Sofia.
In experiments on rats using passive avoidance with punishment reinforcement (step-through) and two-way active avoidance with punishment reinforcement (shuttle-box), we examined the effects on acquisition and retention of different combinations of the nootropic drugs meclofenoxate (Mf), citicholine (CCh), piracetam (Pc), the structural analogues of aniracetam p-P and p-F, standardized extract from ginseng roots (PG) and the psychostimulants caffeine (Caf) and amphetamine (Amph). Favorable effects (more pronounced improvement of learning and/or memory as compared to that caused by the drugs when given alone) were in some cases obtained by the combination Mf+Caf, Pc+Caf, CCh+Caf, p-F+Caf, Mf+CCh, as well as by the combination Mf+PG applied to rats with electroconvulsive shock-induced amnesia. However, in some cases the combined administration of two drugs with favorable effects on memory did not led to summation or potentiation but rather to disappearance of these effects. This was observed under certain experimental conditions with some combinations of Caf and CCh, Mf, Pc and p-P and with some combinations of Amph and Mf. Based on our earlier results and data in the literature, we present some considerations about the role of the neurotransmitter mechanisms of action of the drugs tested as neurochemical correlates of their effects on memory. It is suggested that the unfavorable results obtained in some cases with combinations of nootropics and psychostimulants are due to the possible disturbance of selective acquisition by the psychostimulant drug.
Can anyone further elucidate or add to theses last two lines?
I don't know how meaningful or true are these two studies below, saying that both stimulants and nootropics excite the CNS, but the stimulants destabilise and the nootropics stabilise (an previously unstabilised system).
1: Methods Find Exp Clin Pharmacol. 1987 Mar;9(3):173-82.Links
Are nootropics a separate class of drugs? A differentiation in various models.
Herrmann WM, Coper H. Psychostimulants, analeptics, and nootropics are three classes of drugs that have been used with varying success in the treatment of impaired brain functions. They all produce an excitatory and disinhibitory effect on the CNS but can be distinguished through their characteristic properties. Psychostimulants are drugs that lead to a general, but nonphysiological activation, which is followed by a phase of inhibition. Analeptics are drugs that stimulate the CNS, in particular the respiratory and circulatory centers, and which in high doses lead to convulsions. Nootropics are drugs that (in impaired brain functions) lead to a physiological activation of adaptation.
1: Pharmacopsychiatry. 1988 Sep;21(5):211-7.Links
Psychostimulants, analeptics, nootropics: an attempt to differentiate and assess drugs designed for the treatment of impaired brain functions.
Coper H, Herrmann WM. Institute for Neuropsychopharmacology, Free University of Berlin, West.
The common characteristic properties of psychostimulants, analeptics, and nootropics are excitatory and disinhibitory effects on the central nervous system. The differences lie in the type of excitatory effect. Psychostimulants produce a general, yet nonphysiologic, activation with subsequent sedation. They generally act in a destabilising manner, disturbing the homoeostatic functions of centrally regulated reactions. Nootropics produce a physiological activation of disturbed or reduced adaptation functions. They have a stabilising effect, increasing the homoeostatic functions of the centrally regulated reactions that have become susceptible to disturbances. Analeptics differ from psychostimulants and nootropics. The effects of neuronal excitation or disinhibition are mainly restricted to the respiratory and circulatory systems. In high dosages they produce convulsions and corresponding motor reactions. No conclusive evidence for a general efficacy in the treatment of organic mental disorders has been furnished for any of the three drug classes. Yet there is sufficient proof that nootropics, unlike psychostimulants and analeptics, can produce therapeutic results in at least some patients, even if it is not yet clear under what conditions they can be meaningfully applied. There is a fundamental difference between the three groups with regard to the potential for abuse. While tolerance and extreme physiological dependence can occur rapidly under treatment with psychostimulants, such risks are not a typical feature of nootropics or analeptics.
Edited by Rags847, 05 August 2008 - 12:44 AM.
Rags847
05 Aug 2008
Biochemistry of Piracetam here:
http://www.bulknutri...m/?articleID=87
Biochemistry of CDP-Choline here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....ogdbfrom=pubmed
http://www.delano.co...GPC-Sharpe.html
Biochemistry of Stimulants here:
http://www.addforums...read.php?t=7701
http://74.125.45.104...P...;cd=8&gl=us
http://www.bulknutri...m/?articleID=87
Biochemistry of CDP-Choline here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....ogdbfrom=pubmed
http://www.delano.co...GPC-Sharpe.html
Biochemistry of Stimulants here:
http://www.addforums...read.php?t=7701
http://74.125.45.104...P...;cd=8&gl=us
luv2increase
05 Aug 2008
In my experience, nootropics do not mix with Adderall IR or Focalin IR. They do, however, mix quite well with a caffeine source or chocamine.
Edited by luv2increase, 05 August 2008 - 02:37 AM.
Edited by luv2increase, 05 August 2008 - 02:37 AM.
