Mitochondrial Antioxidant SkQ1 Doubles Med...
Aphrodite 17 Jan 2009
Also, check out the fightaging.org write-up on SkQ1 on Jan. 16, 2009
http://fightaging.org/
Entry titled: Other Parties Interested in Targeting Mitochondria
FunkOdyssey 17 Jan 2009
StrangeAeons 17 Jan 2009
kismet 18 Jan 2009
I think the yadda yadda part is the important part, though. First median life span is nice and all but pretty worthless in terms of real life extension and I have a hard time finding data on maximum life span.huh... looks like you don't have to move the mitochondrial DNA into the nucleus after all... you just have to treat the mitochondria nicely. I really didn't think MitoSENS would be the first of the seven to yield this kind of breakthrough; assuming, of course, that this all pans out and translates to humans, yada yada.
Secondly Russian scientists are not known for their good methodology (think melatonin, epitalon and metformin studies - all of them basically suck, because they use sick, short-lived animals)
Then there's the small, but subtle difference between our mitochondria and rodent mitochondria. We live 30 times their life spans and are by far the longest lived primate and thus our mitochondria are probably incredibly more efficient than most other mammal mitochondria.
Oh surprise, surprise! Anisimov fails yet again to prove anything:
http://protein.bio.m...l/73121655.html
This guy makes me mad, someone care to drop him an e-mail? "Stop using genetic f'ck ups, how bout trying black 6 for a change?! C-5-7-B-L/6 really it's not that hard guys." I don't think I'll read the study after seeing SHR and HER-2/neu mice used again, I really don't want to waste my time...
Edited by kismet, 18 January 2009 - 12:56 AM.
niner 18 Jan 2009
AgeVivo 18 Jan 2009
Reminds me the pineal gland extracts. It seems that there are many bad russian anti-aging claims.
Edited by AgeVivo, 18 January 2009 - 10:13 PM.
John Schloendorn 19 Jan 2009
kismet 19 Jan 2009
I don't think rodents are the perfect modell organism in the first place (at least they're rather cheap), but I guess that isn't what you were saying. What better strains are there? Wild mice? The NIA's genetically heterogeneous lab mice?Heh, I'm afraid when it comes to human-like aging, BL6 is quite a genetic four letter word in itself.
John Schloendorn 19 Jan 2009
Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. There are no generally "good" models. So I think it's not right to blame the Russians specifically for choosing a poor model. So does everybody.I don't think rodents are the perfect modell organism in the first place (at least they're rather cheap), but I guess that isn't what you were saying.
AgeVivo 19 Jan 2009
and why on earth did they consider SHR (Spontaneous Hypertensive) and HER-2/neu (breast cancer) mice??? especially after seeing their good knowledge of longevity models (Podospora anserina, Ceriodaphnia affinis, fruit flies)! if they had showed a good result with BL6 i would have tried it at home; but with such results i'd guess that they tried it, had bad results and did not want to show it. what do you think?
John Schloendorn 21 Jan 2009
Mixter 21 Jan 2009
It just hasn't been researched whether this can reverse any damage, e.g. sufficiently bring up mitochondrial counts in
sedentary / metabolic syndrome animals, if given in the middle of life... indeed the current curves may speak against that.
All interventions like these should be tested even on 1-2 year old IGF-IR mutant mice or ICER I gamma mice without prior intervention,
which resembles the normal american population (diabetes model :/). Perhaps John or someone else with credibility
could even drop these researchers a short line and encourage them to do such research that sheds light on damage reversal
efficacy instead of only prevention. Not impossible they'd be willing to provide that research if they knew.
Edited by mixter, 21 January 2009 - 12:10 PM.
kismet 21 Jan 2009
I think the argument is that BL6 generally live longer (max and average life span) than SHR mice for instance, having a longer natural life span, one could assume that their bodies have better repair mechanisms for aging damage and cope better with or develop less pathologies. If they develop pathologies and your supplement happens to treat them voilá fake life extension.I absolutely agree. What I'm saying is BL6 is highly abnormal too. Why specifically would you think that BL6 is in any way a better model for whatever it is that you care about than these strains?
Yes, C57BL/6 is still an inbred and short-lived strain, when compared to wild mice, but as far as I know it's one of the best researched and longest-lived inbred strains.
Using wild mice or even better non-human primates would be optimal, but researchers have to make trade-offs, experiment duration and cost will rise with those species, but their aging is most probably more representative of human aging. The problem with Russian research, mostly Anisimov et al, is they never bother with any longer lived and healthier species or strains than SHR mice.
If they really believed in their Metformin research for instance, why not study Metformin in wild mice or any bigger mammal? Most often they "prove" efficacy of compounds in SHR mice and just move on to the next. Their research is one big farce. Well, maybe they don't have the money, but I don't think so...
Edited by kismet, 21 January 2009 - 02:18 PM.
Michael 26 Jan 2009
They don't die early of specific pathologies; their survival curves (when properly husbanded) are nice and square; and they have about as long a lifespan as Mus musculus gets. What all of this suggests is that when you see their lifespans improved, you're not just putting off early mortality or preventing some specific disease (which is what we've been doing in humans for the last century or more), but are doing something that intervenes in the global aging of the mouse.I absolutely agree. What I'm saying is BL6 is highly abnormal too. Why specifically would you think that BL6 is in any way a better model for whatever it is that you care about than these strains?
Additionally, C57BL/6 has a kind of "first mover advantage:" precisely because already it's been used so extensively for biogerontology studies, we know a lot about its aging process, at both the structural and functional level, as well as its lifespan, and about its responses to multiple interventions (including, of course, CR) purported to retard aging.
-Michael
StrangeAeons 27 Jan 2009
niner 27 Jan 2009
If we start creating inbred human strains with specific genetic defects, this will be a problem. For normal human populations, we need to use a sufficiently large sample to represent normal diversity, but that's about it. Pharmacogenomics will address the problems that come up with genetic variation in, for example, drug metabolism.If there's this much debate about methodology because they didn't choose a specific strain of mice, how are we supposed to extrapolate any of this to "a specific strain" of humans, much less all humans?
This doesn't remove the known difficulties of comparing therapies, diets, etc between different species.
StrangeAeons 27 Jan 2009
Do they do any studies on large, genetically diverse populations of mice, or is this too impractical? I apologize, clearly we have a room full of experts here with a few laymen interjecting.
Edited by PetaKiaRose, 27 January 2009 - 08:00 PM.
kismet 27 Jan 2009
I can only guess that the answer is: yes, they do, just what are the real benefits? As obviously the mice are not as perfectly heterogenous as, say, huge human cohorts*I imagine that the current model would work well for certain areas of Kentucky and Apppalachia
Do they do any studies on large, genetically diverse populations of mice, or is this too impractical? I apologize, clearly we have a room full of experts here with a few laymen interjecting.
"UM-HET3 mice[,] the progeny of CB6F1 females and C3D2F1 males and are genetically heterogeneous, the equivalent of a large sibship" (from the mfoundation)
*could anyone tell me if I used the comma correctly?
I interjected the question in the hope someone would notice and start a debate on their (possible) advantages....What better strains are there? Wild mice? The NIA's genetically heterogeneous lab mice?Heh, I'm afraid when it comes to human-like aging, BL6 is quite a genetic four letter word in itself.
Crepulance 29 Jan 2009
Crep
Aphrodite 30 Jan 2009
SkQ1: A mitochondrially targeted antioxidant that extends lifespan
Edited by Aphrodite, 30 January 2009 - 05:15 AM.
Crepulance 30 Jan 2009
Crep
There was a great article written over on Ouroboros on SkQ1 on Jan. 28
SkQ1: A mitochondrially targeted antioxidant that extends lifespan
AgeVivo 31 Jan 2009
- Intervention Testing Program = robust tests of life-extension in mice: officious page - official pageDo they do any studies on large, genetically diverse populations of mice, or is this too impractical?
- MPrize@ home = distributed environments; to start in a few months i guess; we may all here participate
What i read is that SkQ1 was built by V.P.Skulachev's team. In http://protein.bio.m...l/73121641.html ,"To the right eye, Vetomitin, a pharmaceutical form of SkQ1, was daily instilled whereas the left eye was used as a control to the SkQ1 treatment"Is SkQ1 available to take in supplement form? Or is it found in anything available in nature?
Don't know however for the supplement form...
Edited by AgeVivo, 31 January 2009 - 05:37 PM.
maxwatt 31 Jan 2009
Good article. Didn't answer my first question though, is this skq1 commonly found in a current supplement, fruit, vegetable, etc.?
CrepThere was a great article written over on Ouroboros on SkQ1 on Jan. 28
SkQ1: A mitochondrially targeted antioxidant that extends lifespan
No. SKq1 (plastoquinonyl-decyl-triphenylphosphonium) is synthetic. It's action is similar and related to that of Mito-Q. Like Mito-Q more than nano-molar amounts are counterproductive. A chemist I knew synthesized Mito-Q and fed it to some pet worms he kept. They died. He had the dose wrong, or else messed up the synthesis. There are requests out in the Chinese trade-lead web sites asking for help in synthesizing plastoquinonyl-decyl-triphenylphosphonium, so we may see people selling it in a few months. I will not be among the first to try it.
AgeVivo 15 Mar 2009
I looked at Ceriodaphnia affinis. They saytheir good knowledge of longevity models (Podospora anserina, Ceriodaphnia affinis, fruit flies)!
I googled a little. In fact Ceriodaphnia affinis is a synonym for sor Ceriodaphnia dubia, which i a much more common name. It's a sort of small/tiny schrimps that eat algua and that anyone can culture in glass bottles but the issue i see for lifespan tests (except that it is not a human ;-) is that C. dubia is extremely sensitive to toxics. In fact it is generally used to test if water is safe (if it isn't C. dubia dies).The crustacean C. affinis is a convenient subject for lifespan research since its imago life cycle is usually as short as 15-20 days and cultivation under laboratory conditions is not a problem
So i wonder if sQ1 extended C dubia's life simply because sQ1's high antioxidant activity cleans the water...