LONGECITY

*** I know there is a few thread that touch on this area, but only very briefly and without much detail or focus on persona experiences. I think that Deprenyl (Selegiline) has become increasingly popular over time, or at least more people seem to be considering it as a valid Nootropic. So rather than bump an old, semi-related post from 2 years ago I though I'd make a whole new thread. I've tried to lay everything out as clearly as possible in order to help anyone else who might have similar questions in mind. I eagerly look forward to hearing the responses... ***

I plan to start using Deprenyl (Selegiline) at low doses for it's supposed positive effect on motivation/mental drive etc etc (anyone like to comment on their experiences? Please do; you can never have too much reading material )

From what I understand, Deprenyl is an MAO-B inhibitor at low doses (up to 5mg) and then becomes an MAO-A inhibitor at larger doses (10mg+). The latter is the more dangerous one - potentially - if taking Deprenyl with certain other Nootropics, Supplements, and prescription medications. However, the "cognitive enhancement" dosage is on the lower end of the spectrum, 0.5mg upwards, so there shouldn't be that much worry about possible interactions. Is this correct? There are not that many listed Contraindications, Warnings or Interactions listed on Selegiline's Wikipedia page, but I assume this is because at therapeutic doses the MAO-B inhibition is not really a problem...?

Would anyone be able to tell me what would be a problem when taking daily doses of Deprenyl? From reading various anecdotal reports I think I would benefit the most from a dose of ~1mg once a day or possibly less [with or without food, by the way??].

Below is a list of the Supplement stack I currently take on a daily basis, as well a full list of prescription medications I take. Bear in mind not everything is a Nootropic by any means. I'm just including everything that I could potentially be taking alongside the Deprenyl. For example - I don't always take these prescription drugs daily, but because Selegiline is an irreversible MAO-B inhibitor I want to know where I should take caution before/after I start/stop using the Selegiline. I don't mind removing certain Noots if necessary, but obviously I'd be looking for the best synergesic effect across the board. I've separated the supplements from the meds because I know the latter are probably the more likely to cause undesirable effects:

- Piracetam
- Aniracetam
- Pyritinol
- Centrophenoxine or DMAE
- Picamilon
- ALCAR + Aplha Lipoic Acid
- Bacopa 50% extract
- l-Theanine
- N-Acetyl-L-Tyrosine
- PEA (Phenylethylamine)
- L-Huperzine A
- Vinpocetine
- 5-HTP (very rarely)

- Modafinil, 200mg
- Clonazepam, 4-6mg a day
- Promethazine/Diphenhydramine, 50mg either/or
- Tramadol, 200-300mg
- Ritalin, up to 40mg (rarely)

...I would be so appreciative if anyone could help me out with possible interactions. I mean, for starters, I know that Tramadol is a short-acting SNRI, which shouldn't be mixed with MAOI drugs. And yet this thread (about a 5th of the way down) has a long-standing member citing that...

I take 200mg-300mg daily of tramadol which is an SNRI along with 0mg-3mg daily of liquid selegiline citrate and have no problems.

and then later they mention that his/her tailored daily regime is:

5mg Adderall XR once daily (5mg total)
1mg Selegiline 2 times daily (2mg total)
50mg Tramadol 3 times daily (150mg total)
100mg Caffeine (via coffee) 2 times daily
80mg Tea (Green & Yerbe Mate mixture) 1 time daily
Piracetam 1.4 g 3x a day
Centrophenoxine 200mg 3x a day
ALCAR 500mg 3x a day
...as well as various other herbs like Bacopa, Maca etc etc..

On top of this subjective information, the Dangers listed on Selegiline/Deprenyl's Medical information sites are summarized roughly as:

• Serotonin syndrome when taken with SSRI's
• Hypertensive crises
• Too much excess dopamine and phenethylamine in the brain and CNS

So you can see why I'm a bit confused about what is okay and what isn't!?!
Would I need to lower my dose of Tramadol because Selegiline potentiates it? Would I need to stop it completely because of it's serotonergic effects?
Are benzodiazepines okay to take in conjunction with Deprenyl? What about Modafinil? It's exact mechanism of action is unknown but it's a psychostimulant that affects dopamine brain chemistry. Ritalin is structurally similar to Cocaine - a strong dopamine reuptake inhibitor - which could potentially means massive amounts of unmetabolised dopamine floating around in the synapses, and this can be toxic, right?

N.B. I don't expect the above cluster of questions to be answered; I'm just stressing my main dilemma: what is safe and what's not on 1mg Deprenyl a day.

Anyway, I'm going to stop waffling now. I think my point is made () I don't fully understand what is, and what isn't okay to take alongside Selegiline. I have read up on warnings and lots of other material on combinations, but on this forum I know that there are some INCREDIBLY well-versed people in the world of Nootropics and their biochemistry & pharmacokinetics, as well as people who actually USE Selegiline with their stacks - and any personal experiences with any combinations you can think of is just what I'm after.

Please, help me shed some coherent light on this!

Thanks in advance,
Alex

First off, PEA - you will probably kill yourself taking PEA and deprenyl. Even being extremely careful I had problems. The ultimate issue is that PEA is not very stable in how it gets absorbed, and there is a fine line between doing nothing and causing death. Aside from PEA, none of the supplements are a concern.

As for drugs, pretty much everything is contraindicated with deprenyl. That doesn't mean youc an't use it at all, though. Some is much more dangerous than others, and I would not suggest using the tramadol at all.

Tramadol is not an SNRI, it's an MAOI. If you take tramadol and deprenyl, it's a very likely way to kill yourself. Even one MAO inhibitor is a lot to deal with, but two is not something any doctor would ever normally prescribe. I won't say it's impossible to do this successfully but it's probably a very bad idea, and at the least it's risky so you should realize that going in. You could consider dumping tramadol and taking deprenyl with DLPA. That should give you good pain relief effects. Deprenyl alone will probably eliminate a lot of the effects of pain and increase your pain tolerance to a fair degree.

You have trouble dumping dopamine when taking deprenyl so you will have to be careful with ritalin. It will keep you up much longer, but won't necessarily have more of the good effects.

I'd ignore the warnings about SSRIs and deprenyl, though. That is not really true unless you take large doses of deprenyl, in spite of the warnings.

luv2increase is probably one of the more 'extreme' people here. I would not follow what he does without understanding all the risks and the reasoning behind it very well. He knows what he is doing, but if you don't know exactly how everything works and apply extreme caution it would be easy to injure or even kill yourself.

Oh, and you may have to drop the N-Acetyl-L-Tyrosine. You won't really need it anyway.

Your Promethazine might not work too well any more, either, btw.

You are taking a lot of stuff that really works against each other anyway, though.

You might want to reconsider your whole strategy and start with treating whatever the main problem is.
Edited by bgwithadd, 21 April 2009 - 11:59 PM.

Oh, and you may have to drop the N-Acetyl-L-Tyrosine. You won't really need it anyway.

Your Promethazine might not work too well any more, either, btw.

You are taking a lot of stuff that really works against each other anyway, though.

You might want to reconsider your whole strategy and start with treating whatever the main problem is.

Yeah I'm planning on doing that actually; see if I can get a more organised mix between my stack and my prescription meds.
I understand that PEA/DLPA ultimately ends up as dopamine, so even doing it in small amounts in conjunction with Selegiline could be lead to dangerous amounts of dopamine, but doesn't N-Acetyl-L-Tyrosine do the same..? I mean, both DPLA and (N-Acetyl-)l-Tyrosine are precursors to dopamine that cross the BBB, so I've really just got to get rid of one and severely reduce my intake of the other, maybe after I've experimented with incremental doses of Deprenyl alone starting at 0.1mg, 0.2mg, 0.5mg etc...

So, which should I get rid of: DLPA or the N-Acetyl-L-Tyrosine? Both ultimately end up as dopamine... I'm looking for quite a 'rush' with the dopamine precursor + Deprenyl combo so which would be better d'you reckon?

As for drugs, pretty much everything is contraindicated with deprenyl. That doesn't mean you can't use it at all, though. Some is much more dangerous than others, and I would not suggest using the tramadol at all.

1st Point: Tramadol is not an SNRI, it's an MAOI. If you take tramadol and deprenyl, it's a very likely way to kill yourself. Even one MAO inhibitor is a lot to deal with, but two is not something any doctor would ever normally prescribe. I won't say it's impossible to do this successfully but it's probably a very bad idea, and at the least it's risky so you should realize that going in. You could consider dumping tramadol and taking deprenyl with DLPA. That should give you good pain relief effects. Deprenyl alone will probably eliminate a lot of the effects of pain and increase your pain tolerance to a fair degree.

2nd Point: You have trouble dumping dopamine when taking deprenyl so you will have to be careful with ritalin. It will keep you up much longer, but won't necessarily have more of the good effects.

I'd ignore the warnings about SSRIs and deprenyl, though. That is not really true unless you take large doses of deprenyl, in spite of the warnings.

luv2increase is probably one of the more 'extreme' people here. I would not follow what he does without understanding all the risks and the reasoning behind it very well. He knows what he is doing, but if you don't know exactly how everything works and apply extreme caution it would be easy to injure or even kill yourself.

1st Point:
Sorry dude, this is just so incorrect. Tramadol is a CNS-acting synthetic opioid that possesses weak and short-acting SNRI qualities. If you have a look at the Wikipedia page [linked], you'll see it's not an MAOI at all - it's a 'monoamine uptake inhibitor', which is COMPLETELY different (and kind of key to know ). Dopamine, Serotonin and Norepinephrine are all monoamine neurotransmitters. I admit that the Wikipedia page has got it badly worded so it might be a bit confusing, but by introducing Tramadol as a "...monoamine uptake inhibitor" what they mean is that is it an SNRI to some degree (as seen later in the article). Serotonin and Norepinephrine are monoamines and their re-uptake is inhibited (mildly) by Tramadol's metabolites. That's why I think, if the dosage of Deprenyl and Tramadol were both significantly reduce, it wouldn't be a problem. Obviously I would never be so stupid as to mix an MAOI with Selegiline as - like you said - mixing two MAO-x inhibitors would be very dangerous.

After I familiarise myself with Deprenyl by itself and at varying small doses I'll start to add Tramadol in, also in tiny doses. Maybe I'll drop 'luv2increase' a PM to see how he gets on with the combination. If that fails, I might do what you said and use the pain-relieving effects from the DLPA to supplement the Deprenyl and see how that works out. Again, it's motivation and "mental drive" I'm after the most. That little push to help reach my goals (which I know I'm perfectly capable of, just somewhere along the way I lost focus .)

2nd Point:
Yeah, you're right here. I think I'm not going to try any combinations - except with Noots - up until I feel comfortable with Deprenyl by itself; and I'll only be taking that 3 days a week to make sure I don't build up a sustained MAO-B inhibitory system. Once I feel okay with the Deprenyl I'll probably drop the dosage down again and try the Ritalin. I know that Selegiline has it's own speedy effects but I have heard positive things about ADHD med stimulants combined with it (i.e. longer duration, less crash etc...)

Quick word of warning: Be careful telling people that Tramadol is an MAOI though because that can seriously change what it can and can't be mixed with. I blame Wikipedia, to be honest, as it only becomes fully clear what they mean when you get to the end of the page/article. Anyway, thanks a lot for the advice! Much appreciated Looking forward to trialling out this novel pharmaceutical and (eventually) factoring it into a nice motivational and de-'brain fogging' Nootropic stack.
Edited by Phreak, 22 April 2009 - 01:38 AM.

PEA is PEA. It has nothing to do with dopamine. The problem with it, I guess, is that naturally speaking your brain makes only incredibly minuscule amounts of PEA. It has a halflife of approximately one half of a second in the brain in normal circumstances.

Deprenyl does increase dopamine because MAO-B removes dopamine, but MAO-A also removes dopamine over time...but there's nothing else that removes PEA.

PEA does not absorb easily, so normally it takes a lot to get it into your brain in quantities that will have an effect. It can be dangerous without taking deprenyl but with a .5 second halflife it is not a big concern...but then it doesn't do a lot either, usually. When you take dperenyl the halflife increases, and PEA is basically what amphetamine mimics to get its results. I'd say it is a cross between amphetamine and ecstasy in its effects. Both of these have a very similar structure to PEA.

If you take DLPA you will get an increase in PEA, endorphins, and dopamine. However, it's not the same as taking PEA directly because your brain won't just mindlessly shove PEA into your blood stream but will shut down production after a while. It still might be too much, though. As for dopamine production, it's just not an issue if you take deprenyl, so don't take anything specifically to build more. You'll have plenty. I am not convinced that is the problem for many people, though. Things just don't work that simply.


As for tramadol - sorry. That is basically opposite, which makes it a little weird to take with deprenyl.

PEA is PEA. It has nothing to do with dopamine. The problem with it, I guess, is that naturally speaking your brain makes only incredibly minuscule amounts of PEA. It has a halflife of approximately one half of a second in the brain in normal circumstances.

Deprenyl does increase dopamine because MAO-B removes dopamine, but MAO-A also removes dopamine over time...but there's nothing else that removes PEA.

PEA does not absorb easily, so normally it takes a lot to get it into your brain in quantities that will have an effect. It can be dangerous without taking deprenyl but with a .5 second halflife it is not a big concern...but then it doesn't do a lot either, usually. When you take dperenyl the halflife increases, and PEA is basically what amphetamine mimics to get its results. I'd say it is a cross between amphetamine and ecstasy in its effects. Both of these have a very similar structure to PEA.

If you take DLPA you will get an increase in PEA, endorphins, and dopamine. However, it's not the same as taking PEA directly because your brain won't just mindlessly shove PEA into your blood stream but will shut down production after a while. It still might be too much, though. As for dopamine production, it's just not an issue if you take deprenyl, so don't take anything specifically to build more. You'll have plenty. I am not convinced that is the problem for many people, though. Things just don't work that simply.


As for tramadol - sorry. That is basically opposite, which makes it a little weird to take with deprenyl.

Lots of very useful/helpful there, thanks (if a bit hard to understand from a layman's point of view!)

So basically, you're saying that both PEA and DLPA are completely pointless to take with Deprenyl? If so, that's all I need to know as I just wanted to use Deprenyl as a motivation booster as effectively as possible, and I read that PEA + Deprenyl together can enhance that effect. However, I don't want to run high risks so I'll cut out PEA and DLPA.

Does this also mean that taking L-Tyrosine, N-Acetyl-L-Tyrosine or L-DOPA is pointless as well? It's just, I've read about all of those being supplemented alongside Deprenyl so I was wondering if they were beneficial in any way? Or do I just run the risk of 'too much dopamine'?

Here's an excellent link under the "Dangers of Deprenyl" heading:
http://www.futuresci...m/deprenyl.html

Back in the '90's studies finally started popping up concluding what life extensionists had suspected before...
Takiong Deprenyl with L-dopa can create an L-dopa overdose. This is not good. There was another thread around here somewhere called something like "nootropics that you'd never take". Alot of people on this board seem concerned about the possible toxic effects of L-dopa. This concern is becomes more valid when taking L-Dopa with Deprenyl. I'd avoid other dopamine pre-cursors while taking this as well as limiting high dopamine foods if taking this overly hyped drug.

Unfortunately the half life of deprenyl (about 2 hours at first and later 10 hours once steady state daily administration becomes common) is decieving. It's an irreversible moab inhibitor. Meaning that the maob inhibition could still be screwed up 5-7 days after taking it at light dosages (but more than likely seems to be around 2 weeks). The link I posted above says that MAOB effects can last up to around 40 days, however (this doesn't consider any after-effects that one may have after taking a medication; when the brain learns to do something one way, it won't want to adjust at times).

All in all, there doesn't seem to be any current "GREAT" way to improve dopamine levels in order to increase motivation and attention without unpleasant issues.

As for supplements, if someone is truly struggling with motivation/attention on a daily basis supplements will only help so much. Exercise and being outside can help to an extent too (much better than supplements).
Edited by yowza, 26 April 2009 - 12:32 AM.

You can take PEA together with it and get some theoreticaly great results, but I applied a lot of caution and had some scary experiences. Like I said the problem is getting the dose just right. Using DLPA or better yet d-phenylalanine you would probably have a lote more controllable results that lasted longer but were not as extreme. DLPA might have some risk, but much more minimal compared to PEA, because just a tiny amount of PEA does a lot and it is very finicky about absorbtion.

"Does this also mean that taking L-Tyrosine, N-Acetyl-L-Tyrosine or L-DOPA is pointless as well? It's just, I've read about all of those being supplemented alongside Deprenyl so I was wondering if they were beneficial in any way? Or do I just run the risk of 'too much dopamine'?"

There are the ones I think are pointless or counterproductive with deprenyl. The reason people do all this stuff int he first place is that they incorrectly identify their problem as low dopamine. Dopamine is almost a red herring for attention/motivation, in my opinion. What adderall and norepinephrina nd PEA do is they are neuromodulators and they actually increase dopamine transport. Meaning, you can have high levels of dopamine in your brain but they are not necessarily doing naything because your receptors are able to shut themselves off. These open up the recptors and get you working again, whether your brain is ready or not. Usually the case is that it is ready, but this is where a lot of neurotoxicity can come in and I believe it's due to when those cells really are not ready - they are worn out but they simply get worked to death.

You can still trying some of that stuff later but I'd wait til you try deprenyl alone for two weeks before playing around. The tyrosine especialy should create more norepinephrine, which is good.

Ah, great info; stuff I can actually understand - thanks people!

I think I understand the basic system now and here's what I'm gonna do (In fact, this is what I am about to take right now before I go and do some work):

Stick to my normal, regimented. always-worked-for-me-in-the-past Nootropic stack consisting of:

- Piracetam (2.4g)
- Oxiracetam (800mg)
- Centrophenoxine (250mg)
- ALCAR (800mg) + Aplha Lipoic Acid (300mg)
- Bacopa (1g)
- Ginkgo Biloba (120mg)
- L-Huperzine A (100/200mcg)
- Vinpocetine (10mg)
- Modafinil (100mg)

+ 2.5mg Deprenyl [Selegiline HCl] <--- this will be my new one, I will see how this affects everything else.

...and when my order arrives I will add in my missing Noots...

- Pyritinol (200mcg)
- Picamilon (300mg)
- l-Theanine (250mg)

...and then, over time, I will slowly, VERY slowly see what happens if I add in miniscule doses of (N-Acetyl)-L-Tyrosine and what impact that has on my cognition.

I'll keep this post updated (probably at the end of today or tomorrow) to report how my first experience with Selegiline went

I just thought of something, MAO-B levels may return to normal within 2 weeks as they get turned over, but the dopamine receptor upregulation may take much longer, and I am not sure that people are realizing this when they stop taking selegiline and expecting to turn back to normal within 2 weeks because they hear MAO-B levels return to normal in that time frame. The time it takes for the dopamine receptor upregulation to return to normal is unknown.

Stick to my normal, regimented. always-worked-for-me-in-the-past Nootropic stack consisting of:

- Piracetam (2.4g)
- Oxiracetam (800mg)
- Centrophenoxine (250mg)
- ALCAR (800mg) + Aplha Lipoic Acid (300mg)
- Bacopa (1g)
- Ginkgo Biloba (120mg)
- L-Huperzine A (100/200mcg)
- Vinpocetine (10mg)
- Modafinil (100mg)

+ 2.5mg Deprenyl [Selegiline HCl] <--- this will be my new one, I will see how this affects everything else.

...and when my order arrives I will add in my missing Noots...

- Pyritinol (200mcg)
- Picamilon (300mg)
- l-Theanine (250mg)


Jesus man! That's quite a stack you have there my friend. How do you space these out throughout the day? Also don't they sort of confilct eachother in their effects? You're taking so much it could be difficult to work out where the benfits are coming from?
Even you have lots of money then that's great for you. That stack must cost you quite a bit per year.

Stick to my normal, regimented. always-worked-for-me-in-the-past Nootropic stack consisting of:

- Piracetam (2.4g)
- Oxiracetam (800mg)
- Centrophenoxine (250mg)
- ALCAR (800mg) + Aplha Lipoic Acid (300mg)
- Bacopa (1g)
- Ginkgo Biloba (120mg)
- L-Huperzine A (100/200mcg)
- Vinpocetine (10mg)
- Modafinil (100mg)

+ 2.5mg Deprenyl [Selegiline HCl] <--- this will be my new one, I will see how this affects everything else.

...and when my order arrives I will add in my missing Noots...

- Pyritinol (200mcg)
- Picamilon (300mg)
- l-Theanine (250mg)


Jesus man! That's quite a stack you have there my friend. How do you space these out throughout the day? Also don't they sort of confilct eachother in their effects? You're taking so much it could be difficult to work out where the benfits are coming from?
Even you have lots of money then that's great for you. That stack must cost you quite a bit per year.

It's an interesting combo that's for sure! I'd be wondering the same thing... (although there are places to get supps. for pretty cheap/larger quantities).

If I were doing this, I'd just start with the deprenyl to gauge the effect for a week or two. Also the link I posted above (in my last post) gives some good over-the-counter supplements that could improve the safety level of using deprenyl (the article explains everything in terms of certain supplements that should be taken by life-extensionists that are using deprenyl). This explains why Acetyl-L-Carnosine should be used with Deprenyl among other things.

I just thought of something, MAO-B levels may return to normal within 2 weeks as they get turned over, but the dopamine receptor upregulation may take much longer, and I am not sure that people are realizing this when they stop taking selegiline and expecting to turn back to normal within 2 weeks because they hear MAO-B levels return to normal in that time frame. The time it takes for the dopamine receptor upregulation to return to normal is unknown.

You know, that's what I've been wondering over the past few weeks. Altered MAOB levels can last for a while... Therefore, the brain may become used to dopamine receptor down-regulation (due to the excess dopamine lying around due to MAOB downregulation, dopamine producing cells can start to become lazy).

Since dopamine can't be administered directly thru supplementation the only other option would be supplements that serve as precursors, cofactors, or play into some system that indirectly increases dopamine. Other than that, here's a general overview that I typed up (if nothing more than trying to educate myself) comparing the road bumps for drug based approaches:

1) Using enzyme inhibition:
Approach Option 1: One thread at http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=21481 talks about using certain enyme inhibitors (COMT and/or DDC) in combination with dopamine pre-cursors. The problem with this approach is there may be alot of other issues besides just dopamine receptor downregulation.

Approach Option Two: MAOB inhibitor
A heavily hyped approach by life-extensionists that appears to have some hurdles as well (see above).


2) Drugs (besides enzyme inhibitors like Deprenyl) generally used to increase dopamine seem to have similar issues:
This is the same problem with dopamine reuptake inhibitors (Buproprion), dopamine inhibitors that work thru different mechanism of action (methylphenidates), agonists (ephedrine or amphetamine based compounds that also serve as inhibitors to a lesser extent), or targeted receptor agonists (amantadine,ect.; these are agonists that target various dopamine receptors as opposed to just the sending cell, which is what the amphetamines do).

Agonists:
The agonists at least have a rougher mode of action and give you the dopamine effect whether your cells are ready or not (kind of what "bqwithadd" describes in his previous post above). These can burn out receptors over time as well as downregulate them.

Inhibitors:
The compounds that serve mainly as inhibitors on the other hand, while appearing safer (don't burn out dopamine pathways; less possibility of nuerotoxicity) actually have their own drawbacks. The longer a re-uptake mechanism lasts during the day (buproprion takes 24 hours while extended), the longer it may take for receptor downregulation to kick back up again? Also, the longer a substance (like 1 week vs. years for instance) definitely plays a role in receptor downregulation. If someone were to take a short acting methylphenidate compound (like Ritalin instant release), they'd probably know what it feels like to have receptor downregulation once the drug starts to wear off. If you can imagine it taking much longer for the cells to upregulate again (from taking dopamine reuptake inhibitors for an extended basis), it is understandable for why even dopamine based drugs that serve an inhibitory role are still addictive.

All this stuff raises the question of whether there are any "Great" ways to improve dopamine in the system. I'm wondering if other classes of drugs that work thru other pathways could indirectly heighten dopamine levels? For instance, NNR (partial nicotine agonists) are one class of drug that indirectly effects dopamine levels.
Edited by yowza, 26 April 2009 - 10:28 PM.

Stick to my normal, regimented. always-worked-for-me-in-the-past Nootropic stack consisting of:

- Piracetam (2.4g)
- Oxiracetam (800mg)
- Centrophenoxine (250mg)
- ALCAR (800mg) + Aplha Lipoic Acid (300mg)
- Bacopa (1g)
- Ginkgo Biloba (120mg)
- L-Huperzine A (100/200mcg)
- Vinpocetine (10mg)
- Modafinil (100mg)

+ 2.5mg Deprenyl [Selegiline HCl] <--- this will be my new one, I will see how this affects everything else.

...and when my order arrives I will add in my missing Noots...

- Pyritinol (200mcg)
- Picamilon (300mg)
- l-Theanine (250mg)


Jesus man! That's quite a stack you have there my friend. How do you space these out throughout the day? Also don't they sort of confilct eachother in their effects? You're taking so much it could be difficult to work out where the benfits are coming from?
Even you have lots of money then that's great for you. That stack must cost you quite a bit per year.

Haha, trust me - I don't have lots of money. Really, really don't. I take the above once a year for exams only. I take that stack intensely for 2-3 months so I only need that much supply. I usually end up with more than I need anyway, so that spills over into next years batch and I end up buying less and less as the years go on. Plus I also buy a combination of powders and capsules so I get a decent price.

How I space it out during the day really depends. I have different ways of spacing them out depending on my work-schedule for the day, what type of work I'm doing, when I have access (some weekends I'm not at home), and a few other variables. Basically, I mix and match HOW I take them throughout the day, but always stick to some sort of strictures; amino acids on an empty stomach, Modafinil and -racetams together, -racetams w, Choline source etc etc...

The effects don't conflict. Or, if they do, I don't notice. I feel that the benefits comes from the synergy, so I have no need to find them specifically. I've pin-pointed what works and what doesn't piece-by-piece in previous years, taking only certain supplements or Noots. I've branched out and tried a whole load of stuff over the years, testing it out by itself, mixing -racetam's, altering Choline source, getting rid of unnecessary amino acids and a whole variety of other "trials" to get my perfectly tailored dose, which is what I have now...

I've got the works: 2 different -racetams (difference in potency, duration and effect) + the choline source + the GABA activity supplements + the vasodilators + the herbalist stuff + the psychostimulants + the strong B-vitamin + [now] + the dopaminergic side of things w/ the Deprenyl. I also occasionally take 5-HTP and a few other things for serotonergic activity. I'm also on a host of prescription meds that I have to be careful to cycle everything 'round.

All in all I'm very happy with my Nootropc stack. It has worked so well in the past and I feel like, without it, I wouldn't consider myself to have done "the best that I could". Every year I come back here (it used to be another website but this one has more 'professional' people ) and refine/fine tune it... and it always gets better!

For example, this year I'm taking away L-DOPA, DMAE, Green Tea Extract, Ephedrine, Caffeine, Kola Nutt and Gotu Kola.
Instead, I'm adding (possibly, I have to wait and see how I get on with the Selegiline) L-Tyrosine, DLPA, PEA, Aniracetam (to test out and see if it can replace one of the other -racetams) and, of course, Deprenyl.

If I were doing this, I'd just start with the deprenyl to gauge the effect for a week or two. Also the link I posted above (in my last post) gives some good over-the-counter supplements that could improve the safety level of using deprenyl (the article explains everything in terms of certain supplements that should be taken by life-extensionists that are using deprenyl). This explains why Acetyl-L-Carnosine should be used with Deprenyl among other things.

Sound advice. I think I might actually do this for the next week. I haven't read that article yet (I couldn't even find it at first!) but I definitely will tomorrow.
I'm feeling exhausted now so I'm off to bed but I will read your above post ^^ yowza when I get the chance during the day tomorrow. I had a quick glance and saw the words "MAOB", "downregulation" and something that suggests potential methods of defeating this sustained downregulation...or something!

I could be waaay of, but I'm literally so tired I can barely keep my eyes open. Sleep is a key part of the Nootropic regime, of course I will have a thorough read tomorrow though.
Edited by Phreak, 26 April 2009 - 10:33 PM.