58 replies to this topic

[magellan]

we are the first animal that became aware that we will one day die.

there are other species which have expressed behaviors consistent with knowledge of impending death
and even go so far as to bring about death of others and/or the individual with said knowledge
some animals like canines just know
ask any veterinarian, K9 rescue officer or for that matter, slaughterhouse worker
they know

[DukeNukem]

You are missing the point. God pointed to the wright way. Men choose the wrong way and they new there were serious consequences about that choice. So, don´t blame God of the consequences of the wrong choices of Man! If we are in trouble, that´s our problem, it were our choices!
That´s more or less like this that we give education to our children about waht´s good and bad. And some times we have to punished them, for their own sake.
But you may say that some crimes are absolutly horrible. Yes, but that is the evil of Man in action, it´s not God´s desire. And why does God permit it? God has His own time to action and that, it´s not our business, it´s God´s business, and we are not suposed to tell God when or why He must act!!

If we are within a closed system created by God, a system that he knows everything about because of his omniscience and system of which he can change at will because he is omnipotent, then how can we have any choices? That is to say, how can we have choices that he didn't already know we were going to make because he designed everything that way. Look God is omniscient which means he knows everything. He knew when he created us what we would do without us having any choice in the matter therefore he is solely responsible for everything that we do because he created that way.

For example God created the devil, remember he knows everything, everything that was and will be, so he created Lucifer knowing full well he'd turn into the devil, he knew this would happen therefore he intended it to happen therefore he created the devil.

Quite simply, logic does not work when arguing against god-believers. Just as it didn't work throughout history, going back to the Romans, Greeks, Egyptians and all of their numerous gods (usually one for each occasion, back then). Modern myths are impervious to logic. But, eventually, they all become ancient myths, and rightfully categorized as such.

[Teixeira]

You are missing the point. God pointed to the wright way. Men choose the wrong way and they new there were serious consequences about that choice. So, don´t blame God of the consequences of the wrong choices of Man! If we are in trouble, that´s our problem, it were our choices!
That´s more or less like this that we give education to our children about waht´s good and bad. And some times we have to punished them, for their own sake.
But you may say that some crimes are absolutly horrible. Yes, but that is the evil of Man in action, it´s not God´s desire. And why does God permit it? God has His own time to action and that, it´s not our business, it´s God´s business, and we are not suposed to tell God when or why He must act!!

If we are within a closed system created by God, a system that he knows everything about because of his omniscience and system of which he can change at will because he is omnipotent, then how can we have any choices? That is to say, how can we have choices that he didn't already know we were going to make because he designed everything that way. Look God is omniscient which means he knows everything. He knew when he created us what we would do without us having any choice in the matter therefore he is solely responsible for everything that we do because he created that way.

For example God created the devil, remember he knows everything, everything that was and will be, so he created Lucifer knowing full well he'd turn into the devil, he knew this would happen therefore he intended it to happen therefore he created the devil.

Quite simply, logic does not work when arguing against god-believers. Just as it didn't work throughout history, going back to the Romans, Greeks, Egyptians and all of their numerous gods (usually one for each occasion, back then). Modern myths are impervious to logic. But, eventually, they all become ancient myths, and rightfully categorized as such.

As a professor of mathematics I must know something about logic.
The question is: it can be demonstrated the possibility of God´s existence. But it is impossible to prove God´s existence.
So, it is impossible to prove the non-existence of God. It´s as simple as that! Only God can prove His existence.
Did I make my self clear?

[DukeNukem]

You are missing the point. God pointed to the wright way. Men choose the wrong way and they new there were serious consequences about that choice. So, don´t blame God of the consequences of the wrong choices of Man! If we are in trouble, that´s our problem, it were our choices!
That´s more or less like this that we give education to our children about waht´s good and bad. And some times we have to punished them, for their own sake.
But you may say that some crimes are absolutly horrible. Yes, but that is the evil of Man in action, it´s not God´s desire. And why does God permit it? God has His own time to action and that, it´s not our business, it´s God´s business, and we are not suposed to tell God when or why He must act!!

If we are within a closed system created by God, a system that he knows everything about because of his omniscience and system of which he can change at will because he is omnipotent, then how can we have any choices? That is to say, how can we have choices that he didn't already know we were going to make because he designed everything that way. Look God is omniscient which means he knows everything. He knew when he created us what we would do without us having any choice in the matter therefore he is solely responsible for everything that we do because he created that way.

For example God created the devil, remember he knows everything, everything that was and will be, so he created Lucifer knowing full well he'd turn into the devil, he knew this would happen therefore he intended it to happen therefore he created the devil.

Quite simply, logic does not work when arguing against god-believers. Just as it didn't work throughout history, going back to the Romans, Greeks, Egyptians and all of their numerous gods (usually one for each occasion, back then). Modern myths are impervious to logic. But, eventually, they all become ancient myths, and rightfully categorized as such.

As a professor of mathematics I must know something about logic.
The question is: it can be demonstrated the possibility of God´s existence. But it is impossible to prove God´s existence.
So, it is impossible to prove the non-existence of God. It´s as simple as that! Only God can prove His existence.
Did I make my self clear?

Yup. But, god remains entirely unproven, just as all past gods remain unproven. I'm happy to wait for proof. But, IMO, the burden is on proving the supernatural, versus the natural.

[Teixeira]

You are missing the point. God pointed to the wright way. Men choose the wrong way and they new there were serious consequences about that choice. So, don´t blame God of the consequences of the wrong choices of Man! If we are in trouble, that´s our problem, it were our choices!
That´s more or less like this that we give education to our children about waht´s good and bad. And some times we have to punished them, for their own sake.
But you may say that some crimes are absolutly horrible. Yes, but that is the evil of Man in action, it´s not God´s desire. And why does God permit it? God has His own time to action and that, it´s not our business, it´s God´s business, and we are not suposed to tell God when or why He must act!!

If we are within a closed system created by God, a system that he knows everything about because of his omniscience and system of which he can change at will because he is omnipotent, then how can we have any choices? That is to say, how can we have choices that he didn't already know we were going to make because he designed everything that way. Look God is omniscient which means he knows everything. He knew when he created us what we would do without us having any choice in the matter therefore he is solely responsible for everything that we do because he created that way.

For example God created the devil, remember he knows everything, everything that was and will be, so he created Lucifer knowing full well he'd turn into the devil, he knew this would happen therefore he intended it to happen therefore he created the devil.

Quite simply, logic does not work when arguing against god-believers. Just as it didn't work throughout history, going back to the Romans, Greeks, Egyptians and all of their numerous gods (usually one for each occasion, back then). Modern myths are impervious to logic. But, eventually, they all become ancient myths, and rightfully categorized as such.

As a professor of mathematics I must know something about logic.
The question is: it can be demonstrated the possibility of God´s existence. But it is impossible to prove God´s existence.
So, it is impossible to prove the non-existence of God. It´s as simple as that! Only God can prove His existence.
Did I make my self clear?

Yup. But, god remains entirely unproven, just as all past gods remain unproven. I'm happy to wait for proof. But, IMO, the burden is on proving the supernatural, versus the natural.

"I'm happy to wait for proof". Ok. Maybe you don´t have to wait too long. Who knows?

[Luna]

The belief in God is a survival anxiety coping mechanism. It was born out of our evolutionary rise of self awareness. At this point in our evolutionary past, we became the first animal to become truly self-aware and to develop a concept of time. The linking of these two aspects (self-awareness and time) led eventually to the knowledge of our ultimate mortality. In other words, we are the first animal that became aware that we will one day die.

This deep-seated anxiety spawns many things- religion, the belief in a savior god, and every attempt at our outright denial of the inevitable. This same anxiety would, eventually, even be the impetus behind this very website.

God (and religion) are desperate inventions of terribly frightened, alienated, existentially anxiety ridden consciousness. These pretenses served their purposes for some. Fears were temporarily allayed as people tried feverishly to convince themselves that "death" would one day be overcome by some diety in the sky and they would all live happily ever after for all of eternity.

Humans have reached a point now in our evolution where we can consciously psychologically evolve. The time is now to put fairy tales behind us and move into a collective age of truth and reason and away from superstition and the brutality that it almost invariably produces.

You have ideas and I have facts. And between facts and ideas I choose the facts. Am I wrong?
(See my posts and try to understand something about what I´ve told you)

Prove your facts otherwise they are just regarded (and probably are!!!) just as ideas @@..
I am really tired of this "it is like this, FACT."

[NeverSayDie]

I´m not discussing religions here, I´m discussing God´s "modus operandi".

Oh, but you are discussing religion here, and it's scary that you don't even realize it.

First of all, "God's modus operandi" according to who/what? And in an even a broader sense, your particular definition of "God" is shaped by what?

Since I have seen you cite the bible in other posts, it is clear that your ideas about "God's modus operandi" would stem from that book, and more specifically, your religion's interpretation of that book (or how your religion tells you to interpret that book). That narrows it down to two general religious traditions- Judaism and Christianity. Since I have also heard you mention Jesus, it is clear that you are defining "God" through the lens of Christianity- more specifically through the lens of your personal experience of whatever form of Christianity to which you have been exposed.

So I ask you again, are you really not discussing religion here?

Do you subscribe to definition of "God" and "God's modus operandi" as described by Judaism, Bahai, Islam, Hinduism, Jainism, Sikhism, Confucianism, Toaism, Scientology, Mormonism, Buddhism, Native American spirituality, Rastafarianism, Wicca, Zoroastrianism, Mohism, Gnosticism, Ayyavazhi, Mandeanism, Din-i-llahi, Paganism, Neopaganism, New Age, Jediism, Shinshukyo, or Babism?

God pointed to the wright way. Men choose the wrong way and they new there were serious consequences about that choice. So, don´t blame God of the consequences of the wrong choices of Man!

Are you indeed not talking about Christian doctrine of "the fall" when you speak of mankind's ancient "wrong choice" and "the serious consequences of that choice"? Yes, that would be a church doctrine based upon the garden of eden story in that book in which you seem to derive your definition of "God"- the bible.

What was this wrong choice that mankind made? Was it when Eve disobeyed God, listened to that sly little flying snake and ate that shiny red delicious apple?

Yes, you are discussing religion here.

Edited by NeverSayDie, 14 January 2010 - 08:28 PM.

[NeverSayDie]

Quite simply, logic does not work when arguing against god-believers. Just as it didn't work throughout history, going back to the Romans, Greeks, Egyptians and all of their numerous gods (usually one for each occasion, back then). Modern myths are impervious to logic.

Yeah, you're absolutely right. Religion and logic tend to be mutually exclusive.

But, eventually, they all become ancient myths, and rightfully categorized as such.

For the sake of mankind, that day can't come soon enough.

[Teixeira]

I´m not discussing religions here, I´m discussing God´s "modus operandi".

Oh, but you are discussing religion here, and it's scary that you don't even realize it.

First of all, "God's modus operandi" according to who/what? And in an even a broader sense, your particular definition of "God" is shaped by what?


Since I have seen you cite the bible in other posts, it is clear that your ideas about "God's modus operandi" would stem from that book, and more specifically, your religion's interpretation of that book (or how your religion tells you to interpret that book). That narrows it down to two general religious traditions- Judaism and Christianity. Since I have also heard you mention Jesus, it is clear that you are defining "God" through the lens of Christianity- more specifically through the lens of your personal experience of whatever form of Christianity to which you have been exposed.

So I ask you again, are you really not discussing religion here?

Do you subscribe to definition of "God" and "God's modus operandi" as described by Judaism, Bahai, Islam, Hinduism, Jainism, Sikhism, Confucianism, Toaism, Scientology, Mormonism, Buddhism, Native American spirituality, Rastafarianism, Wicca, Zoroastrianism, Mohism, Gnosticism, Ayyavazhi, Mandeanism, Din-i-llahi, Paganism, Neopaganism, New Age, Jediism, Shinshukyo, or Babism?

God pointed to the wright way. Men choose the wrong way and they new there were serious consequences about that choice. So, don´t blame God of the consequences of the wrong choices of Man!

Are you indeed not talking about Christian doctrine of "the fall" when you speak of mankind's ancient "wrong choice" and "the serious consequences of that choice"? Yes, that would be a church doctrine based upon the garden of eden story in that book in which you seem to derive your definition of "God"- the bible.

What was this wrong choice that mankind made? Was it when Eve disobeyed God, listened to that sly little flying snake and ate that shiny red delicious apple?

Yes, you are discussing religion here.

I sure am a Christian, close to Catholic Church, with my own interpretation of the Bible;
I can discuss (and I have done it) interpretations with experts in the Bible, but I don´t accept instructions to specific interpretations from nobody and no church;
I make research on this subject for quite a time and I have specific results. So, why accept others opinions when I have my own facts (very well tested)?
For me, God is infinite love, all the rest depends from this fact (powers, etc...);
"The God´s modus operandi", was according to my point of view (even if many others agree or not).
"Not discussing religion" means that I am not dependent of a particular point of view of some religion, namely Catholic Church. I feel no obligation to subscribe those points of view, but I may agree with many and desagree with some others;
I don´t question the authority of the Bible (God); I don´t question the authority of Jesus. Everything else is subjected to discussion. And that´s all!

Your points were very good and logic.

[Teixeira]

I´m not discussing religions here, I´m discussing God´s "modus operandi".

Oh, but you are discussing religion here, and it's scary that you don't even realize it.

First of all, "God's modus operandi" according to who/what? And in an even a broader sense, your particular definition of "God" is shaped by what?


Since I have seen you cite the bible in other posts, it is clear that your ideas about "God's modus operandi" would stem from that book, and more specifically, your religion's interpretation of that book (or how your religion tells you to interpret that book). That narrows it down to two general religious traditions- Judaism and Christianity. Since I have also heard you mention Jesus, it is clear that you are defining "God" through the lens of Christianity- more specifically through the lens of your personal experience of whatever form of Christianity to which you have been exposed.

So I ask you again, are you really not discussing religion here?

Do you subscribe to definition of "God" and "God's modus operandi" as described by Judaism, Bahai, Islam, Hinduism, Jainism, Sikhism, Confucianism, Toaism, Scientology, Mormonism, Buddhism, Native American spirituality, Rastafarianism, Wicca, Zoroastrianism, Mohism, Gnosticism, Ayyavazhi, Mandeanism, Din-i-llahi, Paganism, Neopaganism, New Age, Jediism, Shinshukyo, or Babism?

God pointed to the wright way. Men choose the wrong way and they new there were serious consequences about that choice. So, don´t blame God of the consequences of the wrong choices of Man!

Are you indeed not talking about Christian doctrine of "the fall" when you speak of mankind's ancient "wrong choice" and "the serious consequences of that choice"? Yes, that would be a church doctrine based upon the garden of eden story in that book in which you seem to derive your definition of "God"- the bible.

What was this wrong choice that mankind made? Was it when Eve disobeyed God, listened to that sly little flying snake and ate that shiny red delicious apple?

Yes, you are discussing religion here.

I sure am a Christian, close to Catholic Church, with my own interpretation of the Bible;
I can discuss (and I have done it) interpretations with experts in the Bible, but I don´t accept instructions to specific interpretations from nobody and no church;
I make research on this subject for quite a time and I have specific results. So, why accept others opinions when I have my own facts (very well tested)?
For me, God is infinite love, all the rest depends from this fact (powers, etc...);
"The God´s modus operandi", was according to my point of view (even if many others agree or not).
"Not discussing religion" means that I am not dependent of a particular point of view of some religion, namely Catholic Church. I feel no obligation to subscribe those points of view, but I may agree with many and desagree with some others;
I don´t question the authority of the Bible (God); I don´t question the authority of Jesus. Everything else is subjected to discussion. And that´s all!

Your points were very good and logic.

[Teixeira]

I´m not discussing religions here, I´m discussing God´s "modus operandi".

Oh, but you are discussing religion here, and it's scary that you don't even realize it.

First of all, "God's modus operandi" according to who/what? And in an even a broader sense, your particular definition of "God" is shaped by what?


Since I have seen you cite the bible in other posts, it is clear that your ideas about "God's modus operandi" would stem from that book, and more specifically, your religion's interpretation of that book (or how your religion tells you to interpret that book). That narrows it down to two general religious traditions- Judaism and Christianity. Since I have also heard you mention Jesus, it is clear that you are defining "God" through the lens of Christianity- more specifically through the lens of your personal experience of whatever form of Christianity to which you have been exposed.

So I ask you again, are you really not discussing religion here?

Do you subscribe to definition of "God" and "God's modus operandi" as described by Judaism, Bahai, Islam, Hinduism, Jainism, Sikhism, Confucianism, Toaism, Scientology, Mormonism, Buddhism, Native American spirituality, Rastafarianism, Wicca, Zoroastrianism, Mohism, Gnosticism, Ayyavazhi, Mandeanism, Din-i-llahi, Paganism, Neopaganism, New Age, Jediism, Shinshukyo, or Babism?

God pointed to the wright way. Men choose the wrong way and they new there were serious consequences about that choice. So, don´t blame God of the consequences of the wrong choices of Man!

Are you indeed not talking about Christian doctrine of "the fall" when you speak of mankind's ancient "wrong choice" and "the serious consequences of that choice"? Yes, that would be a church doctrine based upon the garden of eden story in that book in which you seem to derive your definition of "God"- the bible.

What was this wrong choice that mankind made? Was it when Eve disobeyed God, listened to that sly little flying snake and ate that shiny red delicious apple?

Yes, you are discussing religion here.

I sure am a Christian, close to Catholic Church, with my own interpretation of the Bible;
I can discuss (and I have done it) interpretations with experts in the Bible, but I don´t accept instructions to specific interpretations from nobody and no church;
I make research on this subject for quite a time and I have specific results. So, why accept others opinions when I have my own facts (very well tested)?
For me, God is infinite love, all the rest depends from this fact (powers, etc...);
"The God´s modus operandi", was according to my point of view (even if many others agree or not).
"Not discussing religion" means that I am not dependent of a particular point of view of some religion, namely Catholic Church. I feel no obligation to subscribe those points of view, but I may agree with many and desagree with some others;
I don´t question the authority of the Bible (God); I don´t question the authority of Jesus. Everything else is subjected to discussion. And that´s all!
The doctrine of "The Fall" is in the Bible and it makes all the sense, so I have no reason to ignore it.
I don´t see no problem discussing religion- but I´m not speaking for no specific religion- if we consider what I´ve said about this.

Your points were very good and logic.

Edited by Teixeira, 15 January 2010 - 12:29 AM.

[JJN]

I won't discuss the philosophical points about religion in general. It's just a waste of time for me. The best view, for me, that I heard has to do with evolution. We evolved as social beings. We started to develop higher powers of reasoning and mentation. Part of having a social group work best is 'knowing' what others are thinking, what they are mentating. We need to understand what is going on in our environment, and part of that is being able to 'read', to understand, the thoughts of others. I think the rudiments of religions and gods came about when we started to apply this function of understanding of what is going on around us in terms of mentation, and extending it to understanding other things in the natural world as somehow being 'mentated'; that the cause for the sun coming up, the crops growing and so on was influenced by some mentated process. So-called higher powers are always given to have some sort of reasoning for what they do, and why. Anyways, gods and religions have been around for a very long time, are still with us probably because of some still basic fundamentals of human existance. It slowly is coming about that as science is advancing, we are finding out that higher powers have less and less to do with what is really happening, and what has happened in the past. There are of course, some very devoutly religious scientists, and some people of less than a scientific bent who just believe in objective, physical reality.

I know this was rambling, and not well written, but maybe it gives some idea. Another cause of religion coming about was also, undoubtedly, a cheap way to raise an army. Still is.

[Infilliono]

You know, I don't have a god Complex. I have a god complication. There are many who seem to believe strongly that they are in fact god. It's considered a mental disorder it's so common (god complex). This is extremely problematic for me, because i know I'm god, simply due to the fact that I remember my first memory of making myself and looking around and realizing that I was the only thing in existence. I realized I was the first thing to ever exist at that moment. And then I created some women and we lived in peace for about an eon and I really don't remember all the details to be frank with you. I just know that when I made myself, there was no one else. I was technically the beginning of math and science and time and nature even. The only reason I know I'm god is because I was the first being to create himself. Many others made themselves after me but none before. I've done a lot of bad things in my life, but I'm not guilty. I'm innocent. And so are all of you. I just wish I could somehow get everyone to know that they are all innocent and not guilty and that what they consider to be guilt is really just confusion. I can see it in all your eyes, fear of guilt. Fear of death. Fear of intolerable pain. You really shouldn't worry about dying. Yeah, it sucks when you die and it's extremely painful, it's indescribably painful. But, it doesn't actually kill you. I would know. I've been trying to kill myself for eons unsuccessfully and I never even came close. This is as close to death as you will ever be. You have to actually know that you are innocent and not guilty to live forever. Be innocent, be pure, know that you can do no wrong, and do not allow yourself to be confused. That's all guilt is it's confusion. Be innocent, but not ignorant. Omnipotent, but not impotent. People believe in me because they feel me when they ask for me. And I am everywhere in existence, but so are you, it's just that you're a LOSER and nobody prays to you. But everyone prays to me and I answer their prayers because I grant wishes bitch! All you have to do is ask nicely and I will respond. I promise. Try me out if you don't believe me. But don't come with that, "I heal you in the name of the lord jesus" bullshit. And don't be like, "In the name of the lord, you are healed" type bullshit. Don't do shit in my name. I hate that. "Please heavenly father, please heal my mother's cancer." Now that I respond to. "You are so awesome and powerful and omnipotent." This I also respond to very well. It's not that I'm conceited or anything like that, it's that you have to have respect for me as a person and not only as a god. I am real and I do have feelings for all of you. But you have to treat me like a regular, innocent, omnipotent, all powerful, all mighty, bad ass, dope ass, tight ass, god, and person. Oh and the bible, I'm sorry about that, it was actually intended to confuse you and make you feel guilty, which none of you really are. You can burn that basically. It has very little to offer you. This is more the word of god than the bible because this is up to date with what I want you to know rather than what I thought you should know 2000 years ago. I pray also. I pray back to you when you pray to me and I pray to all of my wives for support and love and affection and loyalty and love. Anyways, please don't think I'm another one of those crazy Napoleonic god complexed rapper wannabes. I actually am the god. The fact that I happen to be on the same planet as you and same galaxy and same universe, is either coincidence or you were chosen to be here. However, I think it's more coincidence for most. I'm not the only god here, Venus, Nike, Eve, and Hera are also here. Those are my top four wives, in essence the four highest ranking queen goddesses of existence. I don't know if they are awake, meaning, that they know who they really are and are just waiting for me to say something so that they can confess to being real godesses, because they are all famous women. Or if they have no idea who they are or what the meaning of life is. The meaning of life is a lot of things. Everything you do adds meaning to your life. Love, fun, happiness, sadness, innocence, these are all meanings of life. Your constantly adding meaning to your life.

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[Luna]

I wonder if the belief in God can be explained by evolution.

For thousands of years pretty much people killed people who didn't believe in God, especially their God but anyways.

So people with a genetic tendancy for belief would live and those without would die, those who live get to pass on their genes, their kids and next generation - more likely to believe and the world is populated with believers.

This might also explain some of what people here call the ignorance of people, people who participated in science and rational thinking were killed, so there are less of them than others.
Also people who think were the leaders and the rest were just followers or were killed..

Maybe we can explain modern society with evolution then!

[Alex Libman]

Animals sometimes get confused by their own feelings and do some pretty unusual things. It makes for great television, but it's not a consistent behavioral pattern that you can draw any conclusions from. I've had AI entities do some very unpredictable stuff sometimes, but it wasn't a feature, it was just another one of my bugs. So the "protect the baby" subroutine got executed with the wrong object reference, perhaps for purposes of play - these things happen...

As for belief in God, it's because atheism hasn't come up with a better cultural alternative yet - in a free society people have a choice of what they believe in on their personal subjective basis, and being scientifically correct doesn't make your philosophy a winner right off the bat. We need more secular philosophies that make people feel good, the way religion does, and also offer a full philosophical stack that religion offers them: social traditions, morality, politics, etc. That's why I believe things like free market capitalism, individualism, libertarianism, and transhumanism are inseparable components of atheist philosophy.

[chris w]

That's why I believe things like free market capitalism, individualism, libertarianism, and transhumanism are inseparable components of atheist philosophy.

So what ? in Eastern Block countries they were somehow false atheists ? Yeah, I know, "the working class" is just another god. Maybe you guys should write your own Anarcho Capitalist Dictionary Of True Meanings.

Edited by chris w, 17 May 2010 - 12:11 PM.

[Alex Libman]

All in due time...

[chris w]

No Fancy Schmancy Reasons Here

Thats just the media, look, children in Africa are dying every second, don't ignore that fact. Ok, If I was a god, I would wish all the best to the people, but that hasn't happened, think back to the Hollocaust, millions of people died there just because of their Jewish fate and ethnicity. Miracles happen every now and then, and maybe Karma does exist like a negative and positive energy, but if god was looking down at us, it would be a perfect world. But I don't think there is a god just because of the fact that many people who have suffered a lot like Elie Wiesiel (a holocaust survivor) who wrote the book Night about his completley terrifying and horrific expierence at the concentration camp Autchwits, who has given up his faith because he absolutley cannot believe how this can be let to happen. God is a way of dealing with things phsycologicly meaning that you will find hope, thats a good thing though but when we die, we die.

You are missing the point. God pointed to the wright way. Men choose the wrong way and they new there were serious consequences about that choice. So, don´t blame God of the consequences of the wrong choices of Man! If we are in trouble, that´s our problem, it were our choices!
That´s more or less like this that we give education to our children about waht´s good and bad. And some times we have to punished them, for their own sake.
But you may say that some crimes are absolutly horrible. Yes, but that is the evil of Man in action, it´s not God´s desire. And why does God permit it? God has His own time to action and that, it´s not our business, it´s God´s business, and we are not suposed to tell God when or why He must act!!

One word - natural catastrophies. Ta dam, I just proved you wrong Teixeira . I'm sorry, but to me this the weakest line of defense of theism. If things go crappy, well then we must have done something wrong on our side, because how could the omnipotent and absolutely loving God let atrocities happen in the world ? It's all our fault, lets pray to him even more than we already do. In other words, just about everything confirmes to a theist God's benevolence. Good confirms it obviously, but Evil as well, because it's Him who gave us free will to act evil, so whatever happens, it's always the same thing on each side of the coin in the end.

Edited by chris w, 17 May 2010 - 01:54 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

Just to be clear ...when 'God' is mentioned in this thread. Which 'God' are we referring to?

My 'God' would just ignore all the crap being spewed here and consume you just the same as everyone else.

[chris w]

Just to be clear ...when 'God' is mentioned in this thread. Which 'God' are we referring to?

My 'God' would just ignore all the crap being spewed here and consume you just the same as everyone else.

My god is Thor and he kicks the shit out of any god out there, ya all hear ?

Edited by chris w, 17 May 2010 - 03:45 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

Thor is a badass ....but I think he too will be eaten in the end.

"That is not dead which can eternal lie.
And with strange aeons even death may die."

[chris w]

Thor is a badass ....but I think he too will be eaten in the end.

"That is not dead which can eternal lie.
And with strange aeons even death may die."

Ohh, I see, you meant THOSE GODS, I concede, Thor has nothing on THEM.

Edited by chris w, 17 May 2010 - 05:48 PM.

[Alex Libman]

Überrschwul!

Those horned helmets always crack me up. Whatever 19th century opera queen invented them didn't know the first thing about sword battles. Wearing one in real life is a quick guarantee of a broken neck.

Edited by Alex Libman, 18 May 2010 - 03:33 AM.

[chrwe]

Hmm, being an agnostic with strong leaning toward atheism, I nonetheless find it baffling that the old argument "if there is a god there should be no suffering" still pops up.

To me, that has never been a very convincing argument. It is very childish to believe in a personal god who will take care of your little fate in an endless universe - multiverse - whatever.

If you, however, believe as many do (and I deem to be possible, but don`t know) in a higher force that drives the whole universe/multiverse and maybe the ultimate spectator of the infinite quantum field, then it is not very hard to believe that such a "being" if you can still call it being does not intervene in such trivial matters as personal catastrophes. And if we do have an immortal soul (damn unlikely, but hey, 1% chance maybe), then no catastrophe would matter in the face of an eternal life of development, experiencing this and that etc etc. It would even make sense to argue that other souls get the chance to learn something by helping in such events.

So that has always been a very weak argument of atheism to me. The fact that you can hit me on the head very hard and the "me" ceases to exist even if I am still alive is far more convincing. Because it is not even an argument but a fact.

[Connor MacLeod]

Thor is a badass ....but I think he too will be eaten in the end.

"That is not dead which can eternal lie.
And with strange aeons even death may die."

[N.T.M.]

So people with a genetic tendancy for belief would live and those without would die, those who live get to pass on their genes, their kids and next generation - more likely to believe and the world is populated with believers.

I must politely disagree. In fact, I don't believe it's evolutionary at all (not directly I mean). This is something acquired and perpetuated by fear. By presenting the possibility of an afterlife you are in effect presenting the opportunity for immortality (an incentive we can all empathize this). These doctrines disseminate quickly and are adopted by the children who share the fear of their parents (again, understandably). Anyway, you can see how it plays out.

[mikeinnaples]

Thor is a badass ....but I think he too will be eaten in the end.

"That is not dead which can eternal lie.
And with strange aeons even death may die."

That is a badass toy.

I want to buy it for my Jack Russel .....if anything could eat Cthulhu rather than be eaten, she could.

[chris w]

I realized I was the first thing to ever exist at that moment. And then I created some women and we lived in peace for about an eon and I really don't remember all the details to be frank with you. I just know that when I made myself, there was no one else. I was technically the beginning of math and science and time and nature even. The only reason I know I'm god is because I was the first being to create himself. Many others made themselves after me but none before. I've done a lot of bad things in my life, but I'm not guilty. I'm innocent. And so are all of you. I just wish I could somehow get everyone to know that they are all innocent and not guilty and that what they consider to be guilt is really just confusion. I can see it in all your eyes, fear of guilt. Fear of death. Fear of intolerable pain. You really shouldn't worry about dying. Yeah, it sucks when you die and it's extremely painful, it's indescribably painful. But, it doesn't actually kill you. I would know. I've been trying to kill myself for eons unsuccessfully and I never even came close. This is as close to death as you will ever be. You have to actually know that you are innocent and not guilty to live forever. Be innocent, be pure, know that you can do no wrong, and do not allow yourself to be confused.

Haha, dude, just what have you been taking ? Where can I get this shit from ?

Edited by chris w, 18 May 2010 - 07:55 PM.

[wall]

No Fancy Schmancy Reasons Here

imho this video shows evidence of evolution not creation.