LONGECITY

I was prescribed Lithium because I wanted to try it for it's ability to increase gray matter and stave off neuronal decline/neuroprotect.

But I worry about even low dose carbonate form at 300 mg due to potential long term side effects.

I read some guy claiming that the oratate form was safer, and more bioavailable and worked better.

Anyone know if I should continue with the carbonate 300 mg dose or switch?

1260219 found no difference in either oral or injected pharmacokinetics between orotate, chloride and carbonate. The only benefit found for LiOr was a delayed onset of polydispia (excessive thirst).

300mg of LiCO3 has about 56mg elemental Li? Getting this through LiOr would require ingesting about 1200mg of orotic acid. I believe the European concerns about cancer that niner posted a while back mentioned 5-6g/day as some kind of threshold, but it may be worth considering.

I haven't read much about lithium carbonate. What side effects are you worried about in particular?
Edited by chrono, 04 May 2010 - 02:32 AM.

i take a low dose of lithium aspartate from swansonvitamins.com. i drop 1 mg in a tea or coffee and it works fine. seems fine quality to me, tho i've never tried orotate. i've some concerns about orotic acid (search forums for past discussion about orotate/cancer risk).

I find Swanson Vitamins to be a great price/quality. IDK why more people don't order from them. They have a very low cost operation.
Edited by prophets, 04 May 2010 - 02:44 AM.

high dose lithium carbonate can cause acute liver problems but usually at ultra high doses, but I worry about any dose over a long enough period also being a problem, and lots of other unpleasant, yet non life threatening side effects like, dizziness, dihareah, dry mouth etc.

I can't even figure out what an optimal "low dose" is for whatever form of Lithium. It annoys me such mis-infomation about things on the net, as I'm sure we all can relate.

Yes I get some of my supplements from Swanson and they really are really cheap. I know there is some website that compares supplemental qualities based on breaking down all of the elemental factors.

In an ever changing supplement/med world, it's almost impossible to know if you're doing the right thing and then the contraindications between all of these we ingest hoping that it will all work together beautifully, but even that I'm beginning to doubt.

I'm obsessive about supplements now, but I'm trying to not be so much like a kid in a toy store amazed at what these toys might do for me. Sorry stupid analogy!

So back on topic. There are lots of studies dating back a decade at least showing the benefits of lithium, but from what I read some trials, (which may have been poorly done), showed that the oratate form may have serious health consequences to.

Here is just one study done on rats showing

The present study demonstrates that chronic treatment with lithium at a low dose exhibits neuroprotection in transient focal cerebral ischemia. Antiapoptotic mechanisms are involved in the lithium-induced neuroprotective effects.

http://stroke.ahajou...tract/34/5/1287

here is a site of a guy obviously selling the oratate form, and there are some interesting things he says, including his emphasis on it not being toxic.

http://mysite.verizo...ithium-orotate/
Edited by dfowler, 04 May 2010 - 03:37 AM.

I have a few papers on my list which I'm hoping will give better information about what "low dose" means, precisely. But 50mg elemental is much more than most people on the board are taking for that purpose, FWIW.

I would suggest lowering the dose significantly, and adding a few other agents with similar benefits. ALCAR/ALA, lion's mane, ashwagandha and huperzine A would provide a few slightly different MOAs to attack this with, along with increasing NGF induction immensely, and allow you to lower your dose of lithium to less worrying levels.
Edited by chrono, 04 May 2010 - 04:17 AM.

I take ALCAR, Lions Mane, MCT oil, creatine, CoQ10 (and there was a study showing cognitive benefits with creatine and CoQ10 that I heard from a voiced message on Life extension foundation,) I was taking Phosphytil Serine, will buy some more.

I plan on Vinpocetine, ashwagandha, Huperzine A, and I take 5mg of deprenyl 2 times a week, (don't know how great that really is,) and I have some pramiracatem which seems to act like PEA does or Adderal. I don't care for the stuff, and certainly isn't helping my cognition.

One member suggested high dose nicotine in NRT form, which I naturally am against, and a whole host of other controversial drugs including Mementine. Sorry for spelling as I've gotten bad with it since my psychosis.

Not sure about phoshpatidyl choline, but I hear it can increase acyetylcholine in the brain. I also take NAC which some studies show significant cognitive benefit, and I take Bacopa, and DMAE, which some say is like a choline source, but I've heard others say not.
Edited by dfowler, 04 May 2010 - 04:25 AM.

I was prescribed Lithium because I wanted to try it for it's ability to increase gray matter and stave off neuronal decline/neuroprotect.

But I worry about even low dose carbonate form at 300 mg due to potential long term side effects.

I read some guy claiming that the oratate form was safer, and more bioavailable and worked better.

Anyone know if I should continue with the carbonate 300 mg dose or switch?

I believe that when it works, people use lower doses of orotate than carbonate. However, I have also heard that it doesn't work at all for some people. So the only way to find out is to try it yourself.

Spelling doesn't matter (I hope!) That's an impressive combination for neurogenesis. In that case, I would definitely lower the dose of lithium, unless your doctor is thinking it will help you for other reasons besides its neurogenic/protective properties. Again, this is only my feeling based on anecdotal reports, but if I were taking more than 10mg I would probably want to get serum levels checked, and would begin to be worried about certain toxicity issues in the long term. Will definitely let you know if I find anything at the library this week concerning dosages.

What lion's mane product are you using? I've been researching that pretty intently, and am finding that many mainstream supplement companies (and even specialty mushroom places) use an extraction process generally better for yielding immunomodulating components, which might exclude the NGF-inducing molecules.

I've stopped using low-dose nicotine based on the cancer concern in the Vasoconstriction thread. Even if that's minor, I don't think it's the best solution for long-term use; maybe as-needed. Nicotine always seemed more sedating to me at higher dosages, but maybe I was wrong.

As vinpocetine is a vasodilator, be careful of anything else that's vasoactive.

I find Swanson Vitamins to be a great price/quality. IDK why more people don't order from them. They have a very low cost operation.

I used to be a believer in Swanson too.
Then I got some niacin, and it doesn't make me flush like other brands.
Now I'm a little more wary of buying swanson branded stuff.

OTOH, I haven't had any problems with other swanson stuff, so YMMV.
Edited by rwac, 04 May 2010 - 05:06 AM.

about the nicotine, not to scare you, and you are obviously not a long term, excessive user there is this big study http://www.timesonli...icle6143744.ece

About the Lithium, you said 300 mg of Carbonate = 50 mg elemental. I'm going to cease using this shit immediately, thanks to your help, and further info is always appreciated.

yeah, I'm crazy about keeping as much of my cognition in tact, and increasing it ultimately. My memories, and problem solving, processing, comprehension, and virtually all abstract thinking has suffered as a result.

Exercise is helping, perhaps the most, along with a cognitive remediation study I'm doing at Mass General Hospital, under arguably the best doc in the country for cognition and how it pertains to my diagnosis.

There will be so many new brain supplements and pharma drugs far superior, Imo, within the next ten years, for healthy as well as psychiatric patients. I might as well not waste all of my money on supplements that will probably pale in comparison to the future or near future, depending on the time line we're looking at!

Since it's getting late, and because I'll elaborate another time, I'll provide a list of supplements to add, suggest some dosage modifications, and offer a list of which supplements in your regimen that you should ditch due to either lack of evidence or efficacy.

Add
-Methylcobalamin, lozenge, 5-15 mg; shoot for 15 mg.
-Galantamine, via prescription, 8-24 mg; its activation of nicotinic receptors should be of some help; add crystaline ginger for nausea.
-Minocycline, which you've said you're exploring.
-Lutimax, a brand name for a luteolin supplement, which has effects similar to that of Minocycline; use only in the event of a failure to secure Minocycline via prescription.
-Fish Oil, Carlson's or Nordic Naturals; start at a base of 2 grams, and slowly titrate up until you reach the optimal dose.
-Curcumin w/Bioperine; I'm still determining the proper dose myself.
-Glycine, start at 5 grams, and titrate up to 15 grams for first week; by the end of the first month, 0.4 g/kg.
-B-Vitamin Complex, use liberally; requirements are quite different for schizoaffectives.
-NICOTINE, titrate slowly up to 0.5 mg/kg; this is a dose only appropriate for schizoaffectives (and similar disorders), not healthy subjects.
-Liberally use oregano, cacao, olive oil, cinnamon, turmeric, parsley, basil, cloves, sumac, and sorghum for cooking; each (except olive oil) has a ORAC value per gram exponentially greater than the celebrated blueberries.
-Alpha GPC or CDP-Choline, start at 250 mg, and titrate until optimal dose is reached; be careful when combining with acetylcholinesterase inhibitors.
-Finally, and most controversially, pregnenolone, 500 mg; needed for gaba receptor and immune system modulation; before the deafening screams of objections deter you, conduct a PubMed or Google search on its use for your indication, and you'll find the results to be quite remarkable; you should use only under the monitoring of your psychiatrist and general practitioner.

Modifications
-Creatine, titrate up to 20 grams for the first week; but, I'll elaborate on the dosing strategy.
-Acetyl Carnitine, 2 grams, but only if you can afford it; not essential unless you have a mitochondrial disorder.
-Acetyl Cysteine, dubious about its efficacy, but try a short term trial of 1 to 2 grams.
-Vinpocetine, increase to 45 mg/daily w/nicotine.
-MCT Oil, no more than 1 tablespoon.

Ditch
-Bacopa, most studies use a terrible methodology.
-Ashwagandha, requires very high and impractical doses.
-Coenzyme Q-10, of little use unless you're over 55, or have a mitochondrial disorder; also requires prohibitively expensive doses that are associated with higher risks.
-Pramiracetam, probably tainted, and given the lack of studies, it is almost criminally marketed as being superior to Piracetam; in the absence of a traumatic brain injury, it's probably dangerous.
-Deprenyl, way too risky and counterproductive.
-Phosphatidylserine, you probably don't need to attenuate cortisol levels.
-Lion's Mane; lack of evidence for smaller doses, and probably not worth even the limited cost.
-DMAE, not the best source of choline, which is needed for nicotinic recptor activation.
-PEA, mean cerebrospinal fluid levels are already elevated, so definitely not needed.

On a final note, purchase only what you can afford, since supplements are secondary to prescription medications. Go slowly, and add one agent at a time so that your reaction to each supplement is more appreciable.
Edited by Rol82, 05 May 2010 - 12:02 AM.

Chrono, what's your recommendation, if any yet, for best company for Lion's Mane? I got mine from Mushroom science which I guess uses the fruit.

I tried ordering from Myco Essenials but haven't received it yet.

about the nicotine, not to scare you, and you are obviously not a long term, excessive user there is this big study http://www.timesonli...icle6143744.ece

About the Lithium, you said 300 mg of Carbonate = 50 mg elemental. I'm going to cease using this shit immediately, thanks to your help, and further info is always appreciated.

yeah, I'm crazy about keeping as much of my cognition in tact, and increasing it ultimately. My memories, and problem solving, processing, comprehension, and virtually all abstract thinking has suffered as a result.

Exercise is helping, perhaps the most, along with a cognitive remediation study I'm doing at Mass General Hospital, under arguably the best doc in the country for cognition and how it pertains to my diagnosis.

There will be so many new brain supplements and pharma drugs far superior, Imo, within the next ten years, for healthy as well as psychiatric patients. I might as well not waste all of my money on supplements that will probably pale in comparison to the future or near future, depending on the time line we're looking at!

One study on the carcinogenic properties of nicotine gum is not definitive (Full Text anyone?), and based on the findings of previous studies, I'm willing to bet that the potential effects can be managed. Additionally, since there is an absence of effective nicotinic receptor agonists outside of transdermal nicotine, your options are very limited. As for the lithium, please wait for the concurrence and recommendations of your psychiatrist. Further, I would add the glycine immediately, since the dosing guideline I outlined shouldn't lead to any adverse events. Remember, you need two agents that selectively antagonize and agonize NMDA receptors, which lithium might effect---but a consensus has yet to be reached. Otherwise the use of lithium for your indication could be counterproductive.
Edited by Rol82, 04 May 2010 - 07:29 AM.

Chrono, what's your recommendation, if any yet, for best company for Lion's Mane? I got mine from Mushroom science which I guess uses the fruit.

I tried ordering from Myco Essenials but haven't received it yet.

If you're prepared to take at least 3 grams/day of a high quality grade in a market of relatively few sources, go for it. Otherwise, I would hold off until more evidence emerges supporting its efficacy at lower doses. Although I haven't studied it extensively, I'm suspicious of the failure of proprietors to capitalize on research findings that have been around for awhile.
Edited by Rol82, 04 May 2010 - 07:14 AM.

about the nicotine, not to scare you, and you are obviously not a long term, excessive user there is this big study http://www.timesonli...icle6143744.ece

About the Lithium, you said 300 mg of Carbonate = 50 mg elemental. I'm going to cease using this shit immediately, thanks to your help, and further info is always appreciated.

yeah, I'm crazy about keeping as much of my cognition in tact, and increasing it ultimately. My memories, and problem solving, processing, comprehension, and virtually all abstract thinking has suffered as a result.

Exercise is helping, perhaps the most, along with a cognitive remediation study I'm doing at Mass General Hospital, under arguably the best doc in the country for cognition and how it pertains to my diagnosis.

There will be so many new brain supplements and pharma drugs far superior, Imo, within the next ten years, for healthy as well as psychiatric patients. I might as well not waste all of my money on supplements that will probably pale in comparison to the future or near future, depending on the time line we're looking at!

Given the relative lack of studies using the orotate form of lithium, I would stick with the carbonate as long as you find it tolerable, and again, if your psychiatrist concurs. For serious liver problems to arise, it would usually require chronic use of several hundred, if not more than a thousand milligrams.
Edited by Rol82, 04 May 2010 - 07:11 AM.

Chrono, what's your recommendation, if any yet, for best company for Lion's Mane? I got mine from Mushroom science which I guess uses the fruit.

I tried ordering from Myco Essenials but haven't received it yet.

Sorry to hear that, I hope they come through. They have one of the most promising products at the best price. Others I would recommend at this point are Fungi Perfecti (whole mycelium, on iHerb) and Cordyceps Reishi Extracts's product, which is a combination of alcohol + water extracts of both the mycelium and fruit body (different NGF molecules). I would steer clear of Mushroom Science, as water extraction is at least partially ineffective at extracting the target molecules in question. Am waiting to hear back from several others.

It's true that the efficacy of lion's mane hasn't been clinically demonstrated yet. But as the molecules have been shown to be probably the most potent inducers of NGF in human cell tests, and have shown promise in some dementia trials (suggesting in vivo effectiveness), I'd say it's a pretty good bet.

Same for ashwaganhda, it has some potential for neurite outgrowth and cognitive enhancement. I'd keep it if you can afford it. ALCAR also has potential to increase NGF output and receptor sensitivity independent of its mitochondrial support. Since this can be had for like 5c/g, and can have a subjective benefit in cognition and alertness, I don't see why you wouldn't keep it.

I would go for Hup A over galantamine, for its more effective AChE inhibition, better side effect profile, and other neurogenic/protective effects. Hup A has some effect on nicotinic receptors, but I'm not sure how it compares to galantamine right now. Also not sure what you're going for with that, as this seems to be a continuation of another conversation I haven't read.

Rol82, there was some discussion about cancer in the Nicotine and Vasoconstriction thread, with another paper demonstrating the putative mechanism. While this isn't conclusive, it's well worth considering when constantly megadosing nicotine. A few questions about your other recommendations:

• Do you have any support for pramiracetam being "probably dangerous" outside of TBI? I've read at least one paper suggesting high safety, and haven't heard of this danger anywhere else.
• Can you elaborate on which elements are potentially dangerous/counterproductive in combination with deprenyl? Discussion of that is usually vague here outside the SSRI issue.
• If you've recommended a very large dose of an AChEI, and cautioned against an ineffective ACh precursor like DMAE, why have you recommended titration of Alpha GPC or CDP-Choline up to some nebulous "optimal dose?" This seems potentially problematic.

To Rol82

First off thanks again! I have 4 jugs of L Glycine at my disposal I got from I herb and hated the sugary taste of it, but supposedly "could" help with my diagnosis.

I would have preferred you not listing in this thread that I have a mild form of schizoaffective, but obviously even mild forms can be debilitating.
I'll start back on the Glycine. It's dirt cheap stuff too. Studies for schizophrenics were in the absurd range of 30 to 60 grams! Supposedly could help with negative symptoms.
I will buy some Alpha GPC or CDP Choline and ditch the DMAE and was planning to.
I'm prepared to take up to 3 grams of quality Lions Mane based on the promising mouse studies I saw, and some swear it really works.
Ashwagandha, can you elaborate as all studies point to it even in moderate doses being neuroprotective and inducing neurogenesis.
I naturally take Ommapure's fish oil and it's triple strength, see other thread for nice debate on dosing for fish oils.
the Ubiquinol form of CoQ10 is being talked quite a storm for life extending, (mild) to it's amazing work synergistic-ally with creatine. I don't see why ubiquinol a potent antioxidant, energy source, reducer of inflammation, and heart protective should be dropped. http://www.naturalne...t_patients.html

I was a moderate former smoker for a few years and one study showed Curcumin induced tumor growth and quite dramatically in mouse models, otherwise I used to use it daily, and unless better studies that contradict this on comes out, I'll stay on the side of caution with this one.

As for Phosphatidylserine can you explain how that raises cortisol levels? I've never heard of this, only great things for long term cognitive help.

Liberally use oregano, cacao, olive oil, cinnamon, turmeric, parsley, basil, cloves, sumac, and sorghum for cooking; each (except olive oil) has a ORAC value per gram exponentially greater than the celebrated blueberries.

Some of these like olive oil, cinnamon, oregano, and some others i do use for cooking.

Pregnenolone was much talked about for schizophrenics/schizoaffectives for cognitive gains, and negative symptoms, and I think body builders use it as a precursor to testosterone, but being a hormone based supplement there is some worry that it could increase risk in hormone cancers. At a whopping 500 mg, (which was the study dose for schizophrenia, and I was on 400 for few weeks) I definitely don't feel comfortable putting myself at risk for cancers hormonally based!

Some say Pregnenolone is the ultimate memory enhancer, but I noticed no appreciable effects for me, except the first time I tried megadosing it I got some uncomfortable energy. Until it is proven save at say a 50 mg dose, or even lower, and efficacious I will rarely, if ever use this.

Lutimex I'll consider, and of course thanks so much for your recommendations.

So what's the consensus on the Lithium? You say it may work for my indications and by that do you mean for mood or cognition? Yes you're right few studies the oratate form have been conducted and the ones that were were poor to say the least, but at such diminutive doses, and assuming it does cross the BBB more much more effectively I don't see how that wouldn't be the safest bet.

You said this regarding Nicotine

and based on the findings of previous studies, I'm willing to bet that the potential effects can be managed.

How do you mitigate the effects of a potential carcinogenic chemical? If you can show me a study that shows a chemopreventative agent that could diminish the conversion into a known carcinogen from another study, I would be interested, until then that study I showed you scared me enough to try to quit this substance.

I know deprenyl can contraindicate with some other drugs, and I can't be bothered to remember which ones, but if you can convince me why it maybe dangerous/problematic I'll cease my low dose divided twice a week.

As for Chrono does Fungi Perfecti seem to be the one to go with? But Cordycepts Reishi is not Lions Mane, oh and i take Reishi extract from Mushroom Science as well

As for Chrono does Fungi Perfecti seem to be the one to go with? But Cordycepts Reishi is not Lions Mane, oh and i take Reishi extract from Mushroom Science as well

Fungi Perfecti is a very professionally made product. Cordyceps Reishi is the name of the company (horrible choice, I know); the link I posted is for their Lion's Mane product. It's slightly more expensive than Fungi Perfecti, but has the advantage of containing a wider spectrum of molecules. I guess I'll recommend Cordyceps Reishi (the company, lol) for its comprehensiveness.

Again, if you're using the lithium just for the neuroprotection/supplemental purpose, I'd think about dropping the dose down to 5-10mg elemental. Seems more comfortably sustainable.

Since my supplement regimen tonight I feel rather good! I'm taking the Glycine in 8 grams to assist with my chronic sleep problems, although this is getting better. I was warned to go real easy on the benzos, in my case klonopin as they can dement over prolong use my psychiatrist said, but she may have been using dramatic words to impress me, as I think she has a thing for me, or I could be talking out of my ass, and she really meant this.

I'm finding one of, if not my fave, new supplements is the MCT oil as it gives me a well being/peace of mind and maybe even clarity of mind, and a whole body ENERGY feeling that can't compare to any stimulant, and it may assist in my weight regimen I am trying to stick to at the moment.

Aside from this I take vit MK-4, 15 mg, glucosomine with MSM, I juice veggies and fruit, drink pomegranate juice, blueberries juice and fruit, and drink lots of green tea, and one study showed the ECGC in the green tea with NAC protected from lung tumor, which again, I've been told my smoking history shouldn't warrant much concern over. I also take high dose inositol for that same reason and it tends to sedate and relax me when I need it most. I take garlic extract in gelatin form, and megadose on cocaine when I get sick of caring for my well being being.gif

Do any of you ever get like that? Like feel tempted to just go out and drink yourself silly or do something deleterious to your health just because sometimes you feel like giving up the fight to mitigate the potential homeostasis that we all hope will eventually lead to longer youthful lives? By the way I don't often do this, and as an active life extensionsist/bioprogressive I'm only talking in extreme states of apathy, and defeat my illness sometimes allows me to feel.

Believe it or not, I take even more supplements, not listed, it's not that I'm rich, it's more I'm obsessed and will squander any last dollar to buy the latest touted supplement online or at Whole Foods down the road.

For diet I stick to a Mediterranean diet, often, and I drink powdered Matcha tea for the extra boost in polyphenols and catcheins. Oh and I'm considering buying some cocoa, and now studies are saying coffee may stave off neurodecline and protect against aggressive forms of Prostate Cancer, and more subtly all cases of prostate cancer.

I read an article of an old drug, used for God knows what, that literally almost prevents Prostate cancer entirely or up to like 80 percent? I'll search around for it and it was published in a major news magazine or a major newspaper. It sickens me how the medical community is so in the dark ages pertaining to certain matters.
Edited by dfowler, 04 May 2010 - 09:31 AM.

^^ I don't think long-term health is necessarily incompatible with having a good time every once in a while

damn straight brutha man! A bit manic right now, whilst on no sleepl

Orotate for the less manic.

It helps with NGF too! (didn't bother to read through the forum)

I was able to feel some "brain fog" at 40mg of elemental lithium per day. I'm at 20mg now (10mg morning and 10mg evening). This blunts my anxiety / depression and my head is clear.

I was able to feel some "brain fog" at 40mg of elemental lithium per day. I'm at 20mg now (10mg morning and 10mg evening). This blunts my anxiety / depression and my head is clear.

so what form do you take?

To Rol82

First off thanks again! I have 4 jugs of L Glycine at my disposal I got from I herb and hated the sugary taste of it, but supposedly "could" help with my diagnosis.

I would have preferred you not listing in this thread that I have a mild form of schizoaffective, but obviously even mild forms can be debilitating.
I'll start back on the Glycine. It's dirt cheap stuff too. Studies for schizophrenics were in the absurd range of 30 to 60 grams! Supposedly could help with negative symptoms.
I will buy some Alpha GPC or CDP Choline and ditch the DMAE and was planning to.
I'm prepared to take up to 3 grams of quality Lions Mane based on the promising mouse studies I saw, and some swear it really works.
Ashwagandha, can you elaborate as all studies point to it even in moderate doses being neuroprotective and inducing neurogenesis.
I naturally take Ommapure's fish oil and it's triple strength, see other thread for nice debate on dosing for fish oils.
the Ubiquinol form of CoQ10 is being talked quite a storm for life extending, (mild) to it's amazing work synergistic-ally with creatine. I don't see why ubiquinol a potent antioxidant, energy source, reducer of inflammation, and heart protective should be dropped. http://www.naturalne...t_patients.html

I was a moderate former smoker for a few years and one study showed Curcumin induced tumor growth and quite dramatically in mouse models, otherwise I used to use it daily, and unless better studies that contradict this on comes out, I'll stay on the side of caution with this one.

As for Phosphatidylserine can you explain how that raises cortisol levels? I've never heard of this, only great things for long term cognitive help.

Liberally use oregano, cacao, olive oil, cinnamon, turmeric, parsley, basil, cloves, sumac, and sorghum for cooking; each (except olive oil) has a ORAC value per gram exponentially greater than the celebrated blueberries.

Some of these like olive oil, cinnamon, oregano, and some others i do use for cooking.

Pregnenolone was much talked about for schizophrenics/schizoaffectives for cognitive gains, and negative symptoms, and I think body builders use it as a precursor to testosterone, but being a hormone based supplement there is some worry that it could increase risk in hormone cancers. At a whopping 500 mg, (which was the study dose for schizophrenia, and I was on 400 for few weeks) I definitely don't feel comfortable putting myself at risk for cancers hormonally based!

Some say Pregnenolone is the ultimate memory enhancer, but I noticed no appreciable effects for me, except the first time I tried megadosing it I got some uncomfortable energy. Until it is proven save at say a 50 mg dose, or even lower, and efficacious I will rarely, if ever use this.

Lutimex I'll consider, and of course thanks so much for your recommendations.

So what's the consensus on the Lithium? You say it may workth for my indications and by that do you mean for mood or cognition? Yes you're right few studies the oratate form have been conducted and the ones that were were poor to say the least, but at such diminutive doses, and assuming it does cross the BBB more much more effectively I don't see how that wouldn't be the safest bet.

You said this regarding Nicotine

and based on the findings of previous studies, I'm willing to bet that the potential effects can be managed.

How do you mitigate the effects of a potential carcinogenic chemical? If you can show me a study that shows a chemopreventative agent that could diminish the conversion into a known carcinogen from another study, I would be interested, until then that study I showed you scared me enough to try to quit this substance.

I know deprenyl can contraindicate with some other drugs, and I can't be bothered to remember which ones, but if you can convince me why it maybe dangerous/problematic I'll cease my low dose divided twice a week.

As for Chrono does Fungi Perfecti seem to be the one to go with? But Cordycepts Reishi is not Lions Mane, oh and i take Reishi extract from Mushroom Science as well

Since I'm at work, I can't address all of your points, but in the absence of other essential co-factors (e.g. tar), I believe the carcinogenic risk of nicotine is very mild, and can be managed by strengthening the body's capacity---via diet, supplementation, and lifestyle--- to protect and repair damaged DNA, and inhibiting the variables that contribute to the genesis of tumors.

As for pregnenolone, very large doses have been administered to human subjects over several months--- without any serious adverse effects. In rat models, doses as high as 1 g/kg were administered three times a week---with 50 total doses---without any toxic effects being noted. So, assuming that your supplementation is supervised, I think you'll be fine with the dose suggested. And, if it didn't appreciably work during your two week trial, then I'm assuming there are some mitigating factors that need to be explored.

With Deprenyl, my concern is that the selectivity of its MAO inhibition---even at low doses---may change with chronic use, which increases the risk of adverse effects with your concurrent SSRI use and dosing strategy. Further, it may undermine---albeit mildly---the effects of other medications like antipsychotics and SSRIs---not to mention others agents in your cocktail that have not been disclosed. If you want to continue, then I would change your dosing schedule to 1 mg per day. Of most importance, though, is the abuse potential of the substance, which given your condition, and likely unsupervised use, is heightened.

Finally, attenuate is a synonym for reduction, and glucocorticoid synthesis---via pregnenolone use---is needed for its modulating effects (e.g. immune system, gaba recptors, etc.).
Edited by Rol82, 04 May 2010 - 05:53 PM.

I was able to feel some "brain fog" at 40mg of elemental lithium per day. I'm at 20mg now (10mg morning and 10mg evening). This blunts my anxiety / depression and my head is clear.

so what form do you take?

Lithium orotate.

To Rol82

First off thanks again! I have 4 jugs of L Glycine at my disposal I got from I herb and hated the sugary taste of it, but supposedly "could" help with my diagnosis.

I would have preferred you not listing in this thread that I have a mild form of schizoaffective, but obviously even mild forms can be debilitating.
I'll start back on the Glycine. It's dirt cheap stuff too. Studies for schizophrenics were in the absurd range of 30 to 60 grams! Supposedly could help with negative symptoms.
I will buy some Alpha GPC or CDP Choline and ditch the DMAE and was planning to.
I'm prepared to take up to 3 grams of quality Lions Mane based on the promising mouse studies I saw, and some swear it really works.
Ashwagandha, can you elaborate as all studies point to it even in moderate doses being neuroprotective and inducing neurogenesis.
I naturally take Ommapure's fish oil and it's triple strength, see other thread for nice debate on dosing for fish oils.
the Ubiquinol form of CoQ10 is being talked quite a storm for life extending, (mild) to it's amazing work synergistic-ally with creatine. I don't see why ubiquinol a potent antioxidant, energy source, reducer of inflammation, and heart protective should be dropped. http://www.naturalne...t_patients.html

I was a moderate former smoker for a few years and one study showed Curcumin induced tumor growth and quite dramatically in mouse models, otherwise I used to use it daily, and unless better studies that contradict this on comes out, I'll stay on the side of caution with this one.

As for Phosphatidylserine can you explain how that raises cortisol levels? I've never heard of this, only great things for long term cognitive help.

Liberally use oregano, cacao, olive oil, cinnamon, turmeric, parsley, basil, cloves, sumac, and sorghum for cooking; each (except olive oil) has a ORAC value per gram exponentially greater than the celebrated blueberries.

Some of these like olive oil, cinnamon, oregano, and some others i do use for cooking.

Pregnenolone was much talked about for schizophrenics/schizoaffectives for cognitive gains, and negative symptoms, and I think body builders use it as a precursor to testosterone, but being a hormone based supplement there is some worry that it could increase risk in hormone cancers. At a whopping 500 mg, (which was the study dose for schizophrenia, and I was on 400 for few weeks) I definitely don't feel comfortable putting myself at risk for cancers hormonally based!

Some say Pregnenolone is the ultimate memory enhancer, but I noticed no appreciable effects for me, except the first time I tried megadosing it I got some uncomfortable energy. Until it is proven save at say a 50 mg dose, or even lower, and efficacious I will rarely, if ever use this.

Lutimex I'll consider, and of course thanks so much for your recommendations.

So what's the consensus on the Lithium? You say it may workth for my indications and by that do you mean for mood or cognition? Yes you're right few studies the oratate form have been conducted and the ones that were were poor to say the least, but at such diminutive doses, and assuming it does cross the BBB more much more effectively I don't see how that wouldn't be the safest bet.

You said this regarding Nicotine

and based on the findings of previous studies, I'm willing to bet that the potential effects can be managed.

How do you mitigate the effects of a potential carcinogenic chemical? If you can show me a study that shows a chemopreventative agent that could diminish the conversion into a known carcinogen from another study, I would be interested, until then that study I showed you scared me enough to try to quit this substance.

I know deprenyl can contraindicate with some other drugs, and I can't be bothered to remember which ones, but if you can convince me why it maybe dangerous/problematic I'll cease my low dose divided twice a week.

As for Chrono does Fungi Perfecti seem to be the one to go with? But Cordycepts Reishi is not Lions Mane, oh and i take Reishi extract from Mushroom Science as well

Since I'm at work, I can't address all of your points, but in the absence of other essential co-factors (e.g. tar), I believe the carcinogenic risk of nicotine is very mild, and can be managed by strengthening the body's capacity---via diet, supplementation, and lifestyle--- to protect and repair damaged DNA, and inhibiting the variables that contribute to the genesis of tumors.

As for pregnenolone, very large doses have been administered to human subjects over several months--- without any serious adverse effects. In rat models, doses as high as 1 gram/kg were administered three times a week---with 50 total doses---without any toxic effects being noted. So, assuming that your supplementation is supervised, I think you'll be fine with the dose suggested. And, if didn't appreciably work during your two week trial, then I'm assuming there are some mitigating factors that need to be explored.

With Deprenyl, my concern is that the selectivity of its MAO inhibition---even at low doses---may change with chronic use, which increases the risk of adverse effects with your concurrent SSRI use and dosing strategy. Further, it may undermine---albeit mildly---the effects of other medications like antipsychotics and SSRIs, not to mention others agents in your cocktail that have not been disclosed. If you want to continue, then I would change your dosing schedule to 1 mg per day. Of most importance, though, is the abuse potential of the substance, which given your condition, and likely unsupervised use, is heightened.

Finally, attenuate is a synonym for reduction, and glucocorticoid synthesis---via pregnenolone use---is needed for its modulating effects (e.g. immune system, gaba recptors, etc.)

I could never abuse Deprenyl as it just doesn't feel addicting to me. I'm currently not on any SSRI's and a super low dose of anti-psychotic Risperdal. I'm more interested if the stuff really works the way people hope it does.

I'm still skeptical on Pregnenolone since several months isn't the same as chronic long term use, also, I was told my life extension, and other sources online that having a history in the family of hormonal based cancers, as I've mentioned, is a mitigating factor. The only hormone based cancers were breast cancer in women in my family, and cancer and genetic susceptibility factors are so complex I wouldn't know if even breast cancer in women could adversely affect me.

I'm unconvinced that even mild carcinogenic activity in say the nicotine gum, is at all safe in that I was a former smoker, so that may increase my risk when if I should continue with even a mild precursor to carcinogenisis.
Edited by dfowler, 04 May 2010 - 05:20 PM.

Chrono, what's your recommendation, if any yet, for best company for Lion's Mane? I got mine from Mushroom science which I guess uses the fruit.

I tried ordering from Myco Essenials but haven't received it yet.

Sorry to hear that, I hope they come through. They have one of the most promising products at the best price. Others I would recommend at this point are Fungi Perfecti (whole mycelium, on iHerb) and Cordyceps Reishi Extracts's product, which is a combination of alcohol + water extracts of both the mycelium and fruit body (different NGF molecules). I would steer clear of Mushroom Science, as water extraction is at least partially ineffective at extracting the target molecules in question. Am waiting to hear back from several others.

It's true that the efficacy of lion's mane hasn't been clinically demonstrated yet. But as the molecules have been shown to be probably the most potent inducers of NGF in human cell tests, and have shown promise in some dementia trials (suggesting in vivo effectiveness), I'd say it's a pretty good bet.

Same for ashwaganhda, it has some potential for neurite outgrowth and cognitive enhancement. I'd keep it if you can afford it. ALCAR also has potential to increase NGF output and receptor sensitivity independent of its mitochondrial support. Since this can be had for like 5c/g, and can have a subjective benefit in cognition and alertness, I don't see why you wouldn't keep it.

I would go for Hup A over galantamine, for its more effective AChE inhibition, better side effect profile, and other neurogenic/protective effects. Hup A has some effect on nicotinic receptors, but I'm not sure how it compares to galantamine right now. Also not sure what you're going for with that, as this seems to be a continuation of another conversation I haven't read.

Rol82, there was some discussion about cancer in the Nicotine and Vasoconstriction thread, with another paper demonstrating the putative mechanism. While this isn't conclusive, it's well worth considering when constantly megadosing nicotine. A few questions about your other recommendations:

• Do you have any support for pramiracetam being "probably dangerous" outside of TBI? I've read at least one paper suggesting high safety, and haven't heard of this danger anywhere else.
• Can you elaborate on which elements are potentially dangerous/counterproductive in combination with deprenyl? Discussion of that is usually vague here outside the SSRI issue.
• If you've recommended a very large dose of an AChEI, and cautioned against an ineffective ACh precursor like DMAE, why have you recommended titration of Alpha GPC or CDP-Choline up to some nebulous "optimal dose?" This seems potentially problematic.

Since I don't have the time at present to address all of your questions and points, I'll address a few. Nicotinic recptor expression is greatly reduced in schizoaffectives---which contributes to the negative symptoms, and must be activated through direct agonism via nicotine administration, or indirectly through increasing acetylcholine with the dual use of precursors of acetylcholine, and inhibitors of acetylcholinesterase. While the co-administration of precursors and ACeHIs has not been studied for long durations in subjects without the sort of enzymatic dysfunction that is part of the pathology of Alzheimer's, I believe the demonstrated benefits greatly outweigh the possible risks. And, because of its greater effect on nicotinic receptor binding, galantamine should be the preffered choice in this regard.

Presently, there are no reliable sources for pramiracetam, and given its quantified strength---8 to 30 times that of piracetam---and its non-specific effects on neuron excitability---presumably by unblocking calcium channels---I would never touch the stuff. For it to be of use, I believe there would have to be a profound disturbance in glutamate transmission---which is certainly not present in healthy individuals. Therefore, it's probably neurotoxic.

Finally, besides my concerns about the dosing requirements and still unproven efficacy of ashwagandha and lion's mane, I'm suspicious about the failure of supplement companies to take advantage of these research findings through increased prices and marketing---which I presume is stemming from limitations that are not evident in the abstracts. Since there are neuroprotective alternatives with more empirical support, I believe their use should take precedence.
Edited by Rol82, 04 May 2010 - 10:19 PM.

To Rol82

First off thanks again! I have 4 jugs of L Glycine at my disposal I got from I herb and hated the sugary taste of it, but supposedly "could" help with my diagnosis.

I would have preferred you not listing in this thread that I have a mild form of schizoaffective, but obviously even mild forms can be debilitating.
I'll start back on the Glycine. It's dirt cheap stuff too. Studies for schizophrenics were in the absurd range of 30 to 60 grams! Supposedly could help with negative symptoms.
I will buy some Alpha GPC or CDP Choline and ditch the DMAE and was planning to.
I'm prepared to take up to 3 grams of quality Lions Mane based on the promising mouse studies I saw, and some swear it really works.
Ashwagandha, can you elaborate as all studies point to it even in moderate doses being neuroprotective and inducing neurogenesis.
I naturally take Ommapure's fish oil and it's triple strength, see other thread for nice debate on dosing for fish oils.
the Ubiquinol form of CoQ10 is being talked quite a storm for life extending, (mild) to it's amazing work synergistic-ally with creatine. I don't see why ubiquinol a potent antioxidant, energy source, reducer of inflammation, and heart protective should be dropped. http://www.naturalne...t_patients.html

I was a moderate former smoker for a few years and one study showed Curcumin induced tumor growth and quite dramatically in mouse models, otherwise I used to use it daily, and unless better studies that contradict this on comes out, I'll stay on the side of caution with this one.

As for Phosphatidylserine can you explain how that raises cortisol levels? I've never heard of this, only great things for long term cognitive help.

Liberally use oregano, cacao, olive oil, cinnamon, turmeric, parsley, basil, cloves, sumac, and sorghum for cooking; each (except olive oil) has a ORAC value per gram exponentially greater than the celebrated blueberries.

Some of these like olive oil, cinnamon, oregano, and some others i do use for cooking.

Pregnenolone was much talked about for schizophrenics/schizoaffectives for cognitive gains, and negative symptoms, and I think body builders use it as a precursor to testosterone, but being a hormone based supplement there is some worry that it could increase risk in hormone cancers. At a whopping 500 mg, (which was the study dose for schizophrenia, and I was on 400 for few weeks) I definitely don't feel comfortable putting myself at risk for cancers hormonally based!

Some say Pregnenolone is the ultimate memory enhancer, but I noticed no appreciable effects for me, except the first time I tried megadosing it I got some uncomfortable energy. Until it is proven save at say a 50 mg dose, or even lower, and efficacious I will rarely, if ever use this.

Lutimex I'll consider, and of course thanks so much for your recommendations.

So what's the consensus on the Lithium? You say it may workth for my indications and by that do you mean for mood or cognition? Yes you're right few studies the oratate form have been conducted and the ones that were were poor to say the least, but at such diminutive doses, and assuming it does cross the BBB more much more effectively I don't see how that wouldn't be the safest bet.

You said this regarding Nicotine

and based on the findings of previous studies, I'm willing to bet that the potential effects can be managed.

How do you mitigate the effects of a potential carcinogenic chemical? If you can show me a study that shows a chemopreventative agent that could diminish the conversion into a known carcinogen from another study, I would be interested, until then that study I showed you scared me enough to try to quit this substance.

I know deprenyl can contraindicate with some other drugs, and I can't be bothered to remember which ones, but if you can convince me why it maybe dangerous/problematic I'll cease my low dose divided twice a week.

As for Chrono does Fungi Perfecti seem to be the one to go with? But Cordycepts Reishi is not Lions Mane, oh and i take Reishi extract from Mushroom Science as well

Since I'm at work, I can't address all of your points, but in the absence of other essential co-factors (e.g. tar), I believe the carcinogenic risk of nicotine is very mild, and can be managed by strengthening the body's capacity---via diet, supplementation, and lifestyle--- to protect and repair damaged DNA, and inhibiting the variables that contribute to the genesis of tumors.

As for pregnenolone, very large doses have been administered to human subjects over several months--- without any serious adverse effects. In rat models, doses as high as 1 gram/kg were administered three times a week---with 50 total doses---without any toxic effects being noted. So, assuming that your supplementation is supervised, I think you'll be fine with the dose suggested. And, if didn't appreciably work during your two week trial, then I'm assuming there are some mitigating factors that need to be explored.

With Deprenyl, my concern is that the selectivity of its MAO inhibition---even at low doses---may change with chronic use, which increases the risk of adverse effects with your concurrent SSRI use and dosing strategy. Further, it may undermine---albeit mildly---the effects of other medications like antipsychotics and SSRIs, not to mention others agents in your cocktail that have not been disclosed. If you want to continue, then I would change your dosing schedule to 1 mg per day. Of most importance, though, is the abuse potential of the substance, which given your condition, and likely unsupervised use, is heightened.

Finally, attenuate is a synonym for reduction, and glucocorticoid synthesis---via pregnenolone use---is needed for its modulating effects (e.g. immune system, gaba recptors, etc.)

I could never abuse Deprenyl as it just doesn't feel addicting to me. I'm currently not on any SSRI's and a super low dose of anti-psychotic Risperdal. I'm more interested if the stuff really works the way people hope it does.

I'm still skeptical on Pregnenolone since several months isn't the same as chronic long term use, also, I was told my life extension, and other sources online that having a history in the family of hormonal based cancers, as I've mentioned, is a mitigating factor. The only hormone based cancers were breast cancer in women in my family, and cancer and genetic susceptibility factors are so complex I wouldn't know if even breast cancer in women could adversely affect me.

I'm unconvinced that even mild carcinogenic activity in say the nicotine gum, is at all safe in that I was a former smoker, so that may increase my risk when if I should continue with even a mild precursor to carcinogenisis.

Since it consists of desoxyephedrine, and because its abuse has been recorded, there's is certainly a risk.
Edited by Rol82, 04 May 2010 - 06:11 PM.

As for ashwagandha and lion's mane: supplement companies can't really make many more claims than they already are. Cerebral Health got a warning from the FDA recently for mentioning that Galantamine is approved to treat alzheimer's, which it is. They had to remove all mentions of the disease from their website. And drug companies aren't that anxious to spend money on trials, when the medicine is a mix of molecules from a plant. While they could patent certain molecules, or maybe an extraction process, the fact remains that there will always be a generic alternative on the market which will be considerably cheaper. This makes it highly problematic that they will recoup the excessive cost of clinical trials.

dfowler, be careful of choline overload if you're doing this. You'd be increasing acetylcholine from all three directions: ALCAR's increase of choline acetyltransferase (makes ACh), increased choline precursors through CDP/GPC, and inhibition of acetylcholine esterase (breaks down ACh). Watch for headaches and neck/shoulder tension, I'd be very surprised if it didn't happen at these dosages. Alzheimer's studies combining these methods are correcting for a pretty severe dysfunction of the ACh system.

I tend to agree that depending on vague countermeasures to known carcinogens seems like an astonishing risk, especially at very high dosages over time. If you're not going the nicotinic route, dropping the Alpha GPC might be a good idea to ease up on the choline system.