Aging explained & the key to immortality.
Absent
15 Oct 2012
Before anyone acts surprised or amazing, this is common scientific knowledge. The reason we haven't 'cured' aging yet is because we have yet to develop a reliable drug that can modulate this particular enzyme's production.
It comes down to Telomeres. Telomers are nucleotide sequences at the end of Chromosomes.
Everytime a Chromosome is replicated, it looses ~100-200 nucleotides. There is an Enzyme the body produces called Telomerase. Telomerases job is to add nucleotides to the Telomeres.
Aging, the physical effects of it, occur as a result of a reduction in the DNA replication process. All of the effects of aging are tired directly to this. When DNA replication is reduced, so is everything tied to the DNA. That includes all enzymes which that DNA produces that take care of skin, cellular/organ health. Pretty much everything in the body. Structure of skin, everything, every enzyme that makes the body function, etc.
Telomerase production slows down over time due to stress factors, and every time you get hurt or your body needs to replicate DNA, your telomeres get shorter. This reduction in the frequency of DNA replication causes a gradual decline in all bodily functions down to the cellular and enzyme level. If Telomerase production was somehow never slowed down, or somehow increased by external or internal(through mental influence) means, the physical signs of aging would never occur. In theory a person could live forever with all DNA functions in tact assuming avoidance of cancer and other incurable diseases.
If there were some magical drug that maximized Telomerase production, and an elderly person who is about to die of old age were to take it.... they would basically look as if they were around ~25 years old, or around their peak of maturation where the decline begins. This wouldn't likely happen over night, depending on how quickly their body can heal... but a good guess is, it would take about 3 weeks of being on this "Telomerase boosting drug" for a person who looks 100 years old to look 25 again.
After being on such a drug and having their Telomeres elongated, their life would be essentially extended to full health to whatever degree their telomers were elongated. In theory if this 'drug' were to elongate Telomere lengths beyond what they were at birth, this person could live for even up to 900-10,000+ years, DEPENDING on the length of their Telomeres.
With the science of genetic engineering, if the DNA determining Telomere length, were increased, our children, and all their children following, could be given the gift of being able to live for THOUSANDS of years without any scientific interference(assuming nature doesn't harm them). They essentially wouldn't die of old age. But this theory still assumes that Telomerase production decreases over time. The length of a new born life could be increased by directly increasing the length of Telomeres.
If the gene that deals with Telomerase production was greatly enhanced, along with stress resistance genes, regardless of the initial length of the Telomeres, a human could live forever, assuming they don't get in some accident or murdered. They would never grow old so to speak.
Essentially, all that is needed to never grow old is for Telomerase activity to always be adding nucleotides to Telomeres at a rate faster than the DNA replication process removes them. As long as Telomerase activity remains above a certain point, aging would never occur.
If the science of gene modifcation was mastered and all genes in the body were identified, it would be easy to give a person an infinitely powerful immune system, rapid healing capabilities, and the right combinations of enzymes to be self supportive so that Telomerase activity is always at it's best. This, would defeat aging, completely.
On a side note, there are Yogis capable of entering such states of deep meditation that they can meditation for multiple years without needing any food or water, without losing weight, as their bodies would be in a state of deep hibernation. A state so deep that aging would ultimately stop. Assuming outside stress sources are completely eliminated, a person would stay in this deep hibernation state for eternity. Metabolism reducing to a negligible state akin to that of being dead. Though the key would be, they could restart at any moment through some activation of dormant chemical reactions that would ultimately crank up their entire body again.
(The below was meant for a second post but the forum auto-combined the posts)
There are also Yogis who have such control over autonomic bodily features that they are able to consciously manipulate the production of enzymes. There are monks who can heal cuts in seconds(similar to wolverine :p). I have seen it first hand in my travels around the world.
In theory, if conscious control of the autonomic and parasympathetic nervous system can be achieved, which is possible through meditation, any gene can be modulated, a person would become a god of their body. They would be able to consciously manipulate even the genes that cause aging and completely eliminate aging through conscious production of the right genes. But before you get your hopes up, keep in mind this level of skill and mental development is the pinnacle of meditation mastery. You essentially have to dedicate your life to developing your mind and consciousness to achieve this.... and most people wouldn't waste their lives doing this unless they had faith that immortality can actually be achieved via this process.
Edited by Siro, 15 October 2012 - 11:22 PM.
It comes down to Telomeres. Telomers are nucleotide sequences at the end of Chromosomes.
Everytime a Chromosome is replicated, it looses ~100-200 nucleotides. There is an Enzyme the body produces called Telomerase. Telomerases job is to add nucleotides to the Telomeres.
Aging, the physical effects of it, occur as a result of a reduction in the DNA replication process. All of the effects of aging are tired directly to this. When DNA replication is reduced, so is everything tied to the DNA. That includes all enzymes which that DNA produces that take care of skin, cellular/organ health. Pretty much everything in the body. Structure of skin, everything, every enzyme that makes the body function, etc.
Telomerase production slows down over time due to stress factors, and every time you get hurt or your body needs to replicate DNA, your telomeres get shorter. This reduction in the frequency of DNA replication causes a gradual decline in all bodily functions down to the cellular and enzyme level. If Telomerase production was somehow never slowed down, or somehow increased by external or internal(through mental influence) means, the physical signs of aging would never occur. In theory a person could live forever with all DNA functions in tact assuming avoidance of cancer and other incurable diseases.
If there were some magical drug that maximized Telomerase production, and an elderly person who is about to die of old age were to take it.... they would basically look as if they were around ~25 years old, or around their peak of maturation where the decline begins. This wouldn't likely happen over night, depending on how quickly their body can heal... but a good guess is, it would take about 3 weeks of being on this "Telomerase boosting drug" for a person who looks 100 years old to look 25 again.
After being on such a drug and having their Telomeres elongated, their life would be essentially extended to full health to whatever degree their telomers were elongated. In theory if this 'drug' were to elongate Telomere lengths beyond what they were at birth, this person could live for even up to 900-10,000+ years, DEPENDING on the length of their Telomeres.
With the science of genetic engineering, if the DNA determining Telomere length, were increased, our children, and all their children following, could be given the gift of being able to live for THOUSANDS of years without any scientific interference(assuming nature doesn't harm them). They essentially wouldn't die of old age. But this theory still assumes that Telomerase production decreases over time. The length of a new born life could be increased by directly increasing the length of Telomeres.
If the gene that deals with Telomerase production was greatly enhanced, along with stress resistance genes, regardless of the initial length of the Telomeres, a human could live forever, assuming they don't get in some accident or murdered. They would never grow old so to speak.
Essentially, all that is needed to never grow old is for Telomerase activity to always be adding nucleotides to Telomeres at a rate faster than the DNA replication process removes them. As long as Telomerase activity remains above a certain point, aging would never occur.
If the science of gene modifcation was mastered and all genes in the body were identified, it would be easy to give a person an infinitely powerful immune system, rapid healing capabilities, and the right combinations of enzymes to be self supportive so that Telomerase activity is always at it's best. This, would defeat aging, completely.
On a side note, there are Yogis capable of entering such states of deep meditation that they can meditation for multiple years without needing any food or water, without losing weight, as their bodies would be in a state of deep hibernation. A state so deep that aging would ultimately stop. Assuming outside stress sources are completely eliminated, a person would stay in this deep hibernation state for eternity. Metabolism reducing to a negligible state akin to that of being dead. Though the key would be, they could restart at any moment through some activation of dormant chemical reactions that would ultimately crank up their entire body again.
(The below was meant for a second post but the forum auto-combined the posts)
There are also Yogis who have such control over autonomic bodily features that they are able to consciously manipulate the production of enzymes. There are monks who can heal cuts in seconds(similar to wolverine :p). I have seen it first hand in my travels around the world.
In theory, if conscious control of the autonomic and parasympathetic nervous system can be achieved, which is possible through meditation, any gene can be modulated, a person would become a god of their body. They would be able to consciously manipulate even the genes that cause aging and completely eliminate aging through conscious production of the right genes. But before you get your hopes up, keep in mind this level of skill and mental development is the pinnacle of meditation mastery. You essentially have to dedicate your life to developing your mind and consciousness to achieve this.... and most people wouldn't waste their lives doing this unless they had faith that immortality can actually be achieved via this process.
Edited by Siro, 15 October 2012 - 11:22 PM.
Alizee
17 Oct 2012
What kind of monks do this? What country?
Why aren't there monks, at least not to my knowledge, live pass 200-300 yrs?
Edited by Alizee, 17 October 2012 - 05:27 AM.
Why aren't there monks, at least not to my knowledge, live pass 200-300 yrs?
Edited by Alizee, 17 October 2012 - 05:27 AM.
Droplet
17 Oct 2012
Are there any studies on this? If none have not been done and this is indeed true to even the smallest extent, I'd ask why not.
Absent
17 Oct 2012
There's many advanced Yogis, especially in the east such as India.
Of course these people would not allow themselves to be tested on and would keep a low profile, because if any government got their hands on them, they would likely never have freedom again.
If it were me personally, and I could live forever, I would ensure nobody finds out about it.
There are a few out there who go public, a couple who could be fake... but it is very easily within the bounds of physics and human biological functioning. Not supernatural in any way, just requires intense mental and body training.
Here's one guy.
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Devraha_Baba
There's people who knew him being an elderely man when they were children, and when they reached the ages of 80, this man was still living, not aged in the slightest. His age is reportedly 250-1000 years old, though I don't really like him as an example because there is a lot of mysticism and unsurity surrounding the facts about him.
His "Death" was not a normal death. He committed 'suicide' more or less, with a Yogic process known as Mahasamadhi. This is commonly practiced by advanced Yogis. It basically is when one has such mental and spiritual development, one gains such control over their mind that they can consciously exit the body at will, whenever they want.
During my travels to India I stayed at an Ashram where a Yogi(who reportedly was over 170 years old) exited his body. He was walking around perfectly healthy, saying his last words to all his friends at the Ashram, and he basically said he was leaving. He went, sat, meditated, and in about 2 minutes, all signs of life exited his body. His heart stopped, and I presume brain activity, as he fell out of his posture. It's a common practice for advanced Yogis. To have such a control over bodily processes they can just leave when they want.
I've always wondered that if a person could live forever, why chose to leave the body. It sort of makes sense. Many monks who get to this level meditate on a concept of having no attachments or desires. This essentially makes every mental powerful skill they gain in meditation useless as they never have the desire to actually put them to use. Their mental power could enable them to be capeable of unimaginable mental feats, but once they feel they've reached "enlightenment" they exit, as they feel their role here on earth is completed They've completed their cycle so to speak.
The only incident of studies being done on people of this caliber are of a Yogi named "Swami Rama".
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Swami_Rama
The knowledge about him is public, but he's one of the few who have opted for tests for reasons such as advancing scientific knowledge.
Once when I traveled to Tibet I met a monk who was an avid practicer of the yogic art of "G-Tumo". What it is, is meditating to generate body heat. During my stays there, he meditated in -30F degree weather in the snow for over 4 days straight, his body heat melted the snow for 20 feet around him. Even getting near him I could feel the heat he was putting off. How this was possible, for that many days straight, I have no clue. He told me he only eats and drinks any food or water about every few months. Basically demonstrating his mastery over metabolic processes.
Though with meditation processes like this, you're talking about extreme control. Accumulative 10,000-50,000 hours of meditation, developing the mind. It's not practice for the average person. If you're willing to dedicate the time to meditate and develop your consciousness and mind, you can become capable of things such as that, though most people will not do so unless they have extreme faith it will work. To Put it into perspective, 50,000 hours of meditation is as if you meditated for 5 years straight, no sleep, nothing. Meditating every hour of the day.
So it's not really practical unless you dedicate yourself seriously and take it up as an extreme lifestyle.
As far as science is concerned, instead of giving people the mental abilities to do these kinds of things and more, we are much closer to developing a cure for aging. Something that will modulate Telomerase enzyme activity, so the body can work in an optimal mode by always having enough DNA to do what it needs to do. In Theory, even 1 week of intense "Telomerase Therapy" could add approximately 80-200 years onto a persons life span. As long as our Telomeres stay long enough, our bodies will never faulter...
Though that's not taking into account all the junk our bodies accumulate over time. Periodically people would need to do extreme detoxing in order to prevent 100 years of junk stuck in the body from clogging up DNA processes. Detoxing is far easier though then extended Telomeres. It all starts with the Telomeres though.
Edited by Siro, 17 October 2012 - 06:34 PM.
Of course these people would not allow themselves to be tested on and would keep a low profile, because if any government got their hands on them, they would likely never have freedom again.
If it were me personally, and I could live forever, I would ensure nobody finds out about it.
There are a few out there who go public, a couple who could be fake... but it is very easily within the bounds of physics and human biological functioning. Not supernatural in any way, just requires intense mental and body training.
Here's one guy.
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Devraha_Baba
There's people who knew him being an elderely man when they were children, and when they reached the ages of 80, this man was still living, not aged in the slightest. His age is reportedly 250-1000 years old, though I don't really like him as an example because there is a lot of mysticism and unsurity surrounding the facts about him.
His "Death" was not a normal death. He committed 'suicide' more or less, with a Yogic process known as Mahasamadhi. This is commonly practiced by advanced Yogis. It basically is when one has such mental and spiritual development, one gains such control over their mind that they can consciously exit the body at will, whenever they want.
During my travels to India I stayed at an Ashram where a Yogi(who reportedly was over 170 years old) exited his body. He was walking around perfectly healthy, saying his last words to all his friends at the Ashram, and he basically said he was leaving. He went, sat, meditated, and in about 2 minutes, all signs of life exited his body. His heart stopped, and I presume brain activity, as he fell out of his posture. It's a common practice for advanced Yogis. To have such a control over bodily processes they can just leave when they want.
I've always wondered that if a person could live forever, why chose to leave the body. It sort of makes sense. Many monks who get to this level meditate on a concept of having no attachments or desires. This essentially makes every mental powerful skill they gain in meditation useless as they never have the desire to actually put them to use. Their mental power could enable them to be capeable of unimaginable mental feats, but once they feel they've reached "enlightenment" they exit, as they feel their role here on earth is completed They've completed their cycle so to speak.
The only incident of studies being done on people of this caliber are of a Yogi named "Swami Rama".
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Swami_Rama
- They did laboratory test on him as he demonstrated some of his abilities. Abilities he demonstrated that are public knowledge are:
- Able to slow the heart rate to practically stopping
- Able to speed up the heart rate to over 300 BPM where it "flutters". Beating so fast that it has a contradictory effect and bloodflow in the body stops.
- He also demonstrated psychokinetic abilities on a very minor scale, rotating wooden objects on a table I believe.
- One of the most amazing things he did was demonstrate that he was able to grow tumors anywhere on his body and immediately heal them. I believe he grew a cancerous tumor to the size of a baseball in a minute or so, and 'deleted' it and healed it within the same amount of time. He explained this is easily possible and why. Our bodies are the cause of cancer. Maybe just gets into our bodies and funks up celluar function causing some mutation due to chemical interference. Many people can, and do heal from cancers, as not all are equal in strength. What determines the healing speed is the power of the immune system. He explains if one is able to gain conscious control over the immune system, and elevate it to any level they want, then no disease could conquer their bodies, not even AIDS - it could actually be defeated.
- He also demonstrated the ability to heat the temperature up on parts of his hands by over 11-18 degrees and reduce it very rapidly.
The knowledge about him is public, but he's one of the few who have opted for tests for reasons such as advancing scientific knowledge.
Once when I traveled to Tibet I met a monk who was an avid practicer of the yogic art of "G-Tumo". What it is, is meditating to generate body heat. During my stays there, he meditated in -30F degree weather in the snow for over 4 days straight, his body heat melted the snow for 20 feet around him. Even getting near him I could feel the heat he was putting off. How this was possible, for that many days straight, I have no clue. He told me he only eats and drinks any food or water about every few months. Basically demonstrating his mastery over metabolic processes.
Though with meditation processes like this, you're talking about extreme control. Accumulative 10,000-50,000 hours of meditation, developing the mind. It's not practice for the average person. If you're willing to dedicate the time to meditate and develop your consciousness and mind, you can become capable of things such as that, though most people will not do so unless they have extreme faith it will work. To Put it into perspective, 50,000 hours of meditation is as if you meditated for 5 years straight, no sleep, nothing. Meditating every hour of the day.
So it's not really practical unless you dedicate yourself seriously and take it up as an extreme lifestyle.
As far as science is concerned, instead of giving people the mental abilities to do these kinds of things and more, we are much closer to developing a cure for aging. Something that will modulate Telomerase enzyme activity, so the body can work in an optimal mode by always having enough DNA to do what it needs to do. In Theory, even 1 week of intense "Telomerase Therapy" could add approximately 80-200 years onto a persons life span. As long as our Telomeres stay long enough, our bodies will never faulter...
Though that's not taking into account all the junk our bodies accumulate over time. Periodically people would need to do extreme detoxing in order to prevent 100 years of junk stuck in the body from clogging up DNA processes. Detoxing is far easier though then extended Telomeres. It all starts with the Telomeres though.
Edited by Siro, 17 October 2012 - 06:34 PM.
Absent
17 Oct 2012
People who reach such levels of meditative, mental and spiritual advancement are sometimes referred to as "Siddhas"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siddha
Siddha, coming from the word "Siddhi(which means attainments)" means "one who is accomplished"
Siddhis are commonly experienced by meditative practicioners of all levels. They are simply mental "level ups" so to speak. They range from basic abilities such as being able to consciously control the heart rate(this can be learned in a few weeks easy), all the way to reportedly supernatural powers - though you can look those up on your own
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siddha
Siddha, coming from the word "Siddhi(which means attainments)" means "one who is accomplished"
Siddhis are commonly experienced by meditative practicioners of all levels. They are simply mental "level ups" so to speak. They range from basic abilities such as being able to consciously control the heart rate(this can be learned in a few weeks easy), all the way to reportedly supernatural powers - though you can look those up on your own
Mind
17 Oct 2012
Interesting topic Siro. Telomerase is being studied in many labs across the world, of course. The enzyme has driven a lot of discussion here at Longecity. I think there is some promise in telomerase activation.
As far as extremely long-lived monks and Siddhas: No testing - No objective evidence - No birth records = NOT TRUE.
Sorry.
As far as extremely long-lived monks and Siddhas: No testing - No objective evidence - No birth records = NOT TRUE.
Sorry.
Absent
17 Oct 2012
Mind,
perhaps they have not been proven but my eyes do not lie to me. As there is no solid scientific evidence, I'm not going to try to convince you or anybody else of it.
Imagine a person 3000 years ago who sailed around the world and knew it wasn't flat. He wouldn't get any good responses out of trying to convince anyone who believed it was flat without any proof. After all, to the modern senses, without knowledge of the globe, the earth doesn't appear spherical in the slightest!
So with that said, I can honor and respect your view as it is perfectly reasonable and a logical way to think. I can't share with you the things I have seen, I could only hope one day that you get a chance to see them too. I can though tell you about what I have seen and all I can hope for is that you take me serious with an open mind. Not asking you to believe me, but at the very least respect my word and spoken experience
Siro
Edited by Siro, 17 October 2012 - 07:01 PM.
perhaps they have not been proven but my eyes do not lie to me. As there is no solid scientific evidence, I'm not going to try to convince you or anybody else of it.
Imagine a person 3000 years ago who sailed around the world and knew it wasn't flat. He wouldn't get any good responses out of trying to convince anyone who believed it was flat without any proof. After all, to the modern senses, without knowledge of the globe, the earth doesn't appear spherical in the slightest!
So with that said, I can honor and respect your view as it is perfectly reasonable and a logical way to think. I can't share with you the things I have seen, I could only hope one day that you get a chance to see them too. I can though tell you about what I have seen and all I can hope for is that you take me serious with an open mind. Not asking you to believe me, but at the very least respect my word and spoken experience
Siro
Edited by Siro, 17 October 2012 - 07:01 PM.
Mind
17 Oct 2012
Feel free to share your experiences. It is interesting reading. Just don't expect too many people to believe you without any objective evidence. You probably already knew that.
Turnbuckle
17 Oct 2012
Before anyone acts surprised or amazing, this is common scientific knowledge. The reason we haven't 'cured' aging yet is because we have yet to develop a reliable drug that can modulate this particular enzyme's production.
It comes down to Telomeres. Telomers are nucleotide sequences at the end of Chromosomes.
Telomeres, eh? Rats have enough telomeres for 4 rat lifetimes, yet still they die. How about the DNA in mitochondria, which has no telomeres? Don't you think that DNA might be a bigger problem, considering they are constantly bathed in free radicals and divide every few days?
Absent
17 Oct 2012
Mind,
Yes I know, and I generally don't share ultra personal details unless a question relates. Feel free to ask specific things though if you'd like.
Turnbuckle,
Numerous times it has been stated that Telomeres are not the only key. Detoxing is also a vital key. Increasing telomere length only really stop the physical signs of aging to a certain point, it's a big point though.
Somebody with poor immune responses may heal poorly and get easily infected... or they may be very vulnerable to stress.
There are Rats who do live long, but there are other factors of their life that get in the way. I believe there is a rat alive today that they test on and is at the age of 57 or something along those lines. The animal world is cruel and harsh.
As humans we have gotten rid of most of the things that animals have to fear every single day of their life. They are killed by other environmental factors long before they can even reach old age, though, there are rare occurances.
When I talk about immortality and extending lifespans, I strictly mean avoiding dying of old age. Other environmental factors can still kill you, built up stress, etc.
Turnbuckle,
a perfect example of what I mean is when nomadic tribes were around. Before cities and villages became a big thing. The average life expectancy was 25-35. It was the environment that killed them, long before they actually reach old age.
Edited by Siro, 17 October 2012 - 10:14 PM.
Yes I know, and I generally don't share ultra personal details unless a question relates. Feel free to ask specific things though if you'd like.
Turnbuckle,
Numerous times it has been stated that Telomeres are not the only key. Detoxing is also a vital key. Increasing telomere length only really stop the physical signs of aging to a certain point, it's a big point though.
Somebody with poor immune responses may heal poorly and get easily infected... or they may be very vulnerable to stress.
There are Rats who do live long, but there are other factors of their life that get in the way. I believe there is a rat alive today that they test on and is at the age of 57 or something along those lines. The animal world is cruel and harsh.
As humans we have gotten rid of most of the things that animals have to fear every single day of their life. They are killed by other environmental factors long before they can even reach old age, though, there are rare occurances.
When I talk about immortality and extending lifespans, I strictly mean avoiding dying of old age. Other environmental factors can still kill you, built up stress, etc.
Turnbuckle,
a perfect example of what I mean is when nomadic tribes were around. Before cities and villages became a big thing. The average life expectancy was 25-35. It was the environment that killed them, long before they actually reach old age.
Edited by Siro, 17 October 2012 - 10:14 PM.
Turnbuckle
17 Oct 2012
I believe there is a rat alive today that they test on and is at the age of 57 or something along those lines.
A google search shows the oldest rat as dying at 7 years, 4 months. So do you have a link to this 57 year old rat?
Absent
18 Oct 2012
Turnbuckle,
I glimpsed it somewhere online not too long ago. I'm very sorry that I do not have a link, but I will do my best to try to locate the source for you.
-Siro
I glimpsed it somewhere online not too long ago. I'm very sorry that I do not have a link, but I will do my best to try to locate the source for you.
-Siro
AgeVivo
18 Oct 2012
Siro, 57... months perhaps. That's beeing tested again because that is surprising.
As for the Yogis...
As for the Yogis...
Hope47
19 Oct 2012
This man claims he hasn't eaten since 1940
.http://en.wikipedia....ki/Prahlad_Jani
http://abcnews.go.co...ory?id=10787036
.http://en.wikipedia....ki/Prahlad_Jani
http://abcnews.go.co...ory?id=10787036
Turnbuckle
19 Oct 2012
This man claims he hasn't eaten since 1940
.http://en.wikipedia....ki/Prahlad_Jani
http://abcnews.go.co...ory?id=10787036
Sounds like a big win for Hinduism over every other religion.
blueinfinity
31 Mar 2013
Interesting topic Siro. Telomerase is being studied in many labs across the world, of course. The enzyme has driven a lot of discussion here at Longecity. I think there is some promise in telomerase activation.
As far as extremely long-lived monks and Siddhas: No testing - No objective evidence - No birth records = NOT TRUE.
Sorry.
Mind, although i respect much of what you say and especially your presence on here is a great aid and resource to many.
To say such a generalized blanket philosophical fallacy such as "no testing-no objective evidence - no birth records = not true"
is definitely not true and our society today has revealed more of these than any decade in the past.
Just because we do not have the scientific techniques/equipment today does not mean its necessarily false.
I believe its very important to keep an open mind, stay humble and be open to learning from all sources.
Also we live in a very different time today than before, its not uncommon to find people without birth certificates, that doesnt make their life, birth or existance invalid does it? I mean if you were to meet a person without a birth certificate, but they are standing in front of you, would you really dispute their physical existence? some things are not proven by science yet, and some others may never be. (Fortunately so, because otherwise we'd be looking to the FDA on our "final" answer on everything.)
I am also not saying that i believe or know anything Siro says to be 100% true either, just food for thought as we continue on this adventure together.
Mind,
perhaps they have not been proven but my eyes do not lie to me. As there is no solid scientific evidence, I'm not going to try to convince you or anybody else of it.
Imagine a person 3000 years ago who sailed around the world and knew it wasn't flat. He wouldn't get any good responses out of trying to convince anyone who believed it was flat without any proof. After all, to the modern senses, without knowledge of the globe, the earth doesn't appear spherical in the slightest!
So with that said, I can honor and respect your view as it is perfectly reasonable and a logical way to think. I can't share with you the things I have seen, I could only hope one day that you get a chance to see them too. I can though tell you about what I have seen and all I can hope for is that you take me serious with an open mind. Not asking you to believe me, but at the very least respect my word and spoken experience
Siro
Siro,
(im gonna play both sides for a second) Just because something was obviously misunderstood in the past, we cannot generalize all things that are misunderstood today as something that will be figured out in the future. Our understanding today may be flawed, or it may be right. Having said that. It's important, especially in today's information driven society to be able to provide some sort of physical and or credible evidence, whatever form it may be to preserve both your credibility and your integrity to the cause at whole.
Absent
03 Apr 2013
blueinfinity,
Evidence is important yes though I don't think we should rely on the presence of evidence to give thought to various ideas. Many great ideas and creations arise out of hypothetical thought and what if. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not dismissing the importance of evidence.
Turnbuckle,
I wouldn't limit it to just Hinduism. Meditation is more actively practiced in Hinduism, and Buddhism, but alternate forms are also practiced in other religions. For instance, there was a catholic saint who went for over 40-50 years without eating. There have also been incidences reported of Catholic priests becoming so involved and focused on their prayers that they began to levitate, though typically the majority of such reports are about Yogic masters and buddhist monks.
Now, this isn't to say any one particular religion is the key to any of this. Many non-religious Yogic masters have argued that it is more to do with the actual practice than the faith. That Prayer itself if done with enough intensity, inevitably becomes a form of meditation. The truth is there are infinite possible ways to meditate, but the foundation of the mental activity must be the same. It usually involves some form of concentrated long-term focus on one individual thing, whether it be a diety, an emotion like compassion(which is what many buddhist monks use), or something as simple as the breath, or a spot on the wall. Focusing for extended periods stills the mind and body causing both to enter somewhat of a conscious sleep that is deeper than natural sleep. Mental states such as extreme bliss occur since almost all mental activity subsides except pure concentration on the object. Many other effects also occur by staying in this state for extended periods. To put it simply the mind and body is able to adapt, change, and recover at rates higher than anything that could possibly happen naturally. From these deep states and with conscious intent the ways in which the body and mind can be consciously influenced is nearly infinite. Examples can include lowering the body metabolism to a level where absolutely nothing is happening, to where the heart beat can be stopped for extended periods and death will not occur, and the most commonly experienced effect by meditators who reach these states is Time Dilation. In deep states of meditation one can manipulate ones perception of time to make 1 second feel like eternity, or to make 15 days pass in a single second(these numbers are arbitrary). The point is reality is subjective from your experiencing point of view. The amount of mental 'superpowers' that can be developed in deep/advanced meditation are near endless.
Meditation is more than the science of exploring the mind. It is also the science of exploring the very fabric of reality, 2 fields which we know very little about.
I could write page after page about the effects of such meditative states from personal experience, and from research and study.
Edited by Siro, 03 April 2013 - 05:17 PM.
Evidence is important yes though I don't think we should rely on the presence of evidence to give thought to various ideas. Many great ideas and creations arise out of hypothetical thought and what if. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not dismissing the importance of evidence.
Turnbuckle,
I wouldn't limit it to just Hinduism. Meditation is more actively practiced in Hinduism, and Buddhism, but alternate forms are also practiced in other religions. For instance, there was a catholic saint who went for over 40-50 years without eating. There have also been incidences reported of Catholic priests becoming so involved and focused on their prayers that they began to levitate, though typically the majority of such reports are about Yogic masters and buddhist monks.
Now, this isn't to say any one particular religion is the key to any of this. Many non-religious Yogic masters have argued that it is more to do with the actual practice than the faith. That Prayer itself if done with enough intensity, inevitably becomes a form of meditation. The truth is there are infinite possible ways to meditate, but the foundation of the mental activity must be the same. It usually involves some form of concentrated long-term focus on one individual thing, whether it be a diety, an emotion like compassion(which is what many buddhist monks use), or something as simple as the breath, or a spot on the wall. Focusing for extended periods stills the mind and body causing both to enter somewhat of a conscious sleep that is deeper than natural sleep. Mental states such as extreme bliss occur since almost all mental activity subsides except pure concentration on the object. Many other effects also occur by staying in this state for extended periods. To put it simply the mind and body is able to adapt, change, and recover at rates higher than anything that could possibly happen naturally. From these deep states and with conscious intent the ways in which the body and mind can be consciously influenced is nearly infinite. Examples can include lowering the body metabolism to a level where absolutely nothing is happening, to where the heart beat can be stopped for extended periods and death will not occur, and the most commonly experienced effect by meditators who reach these states is Time Dilation. In deep states of meditation one can manipulate ones perception of time to make 1 second feel like eternity, or to make 15 days pass in a single second(these numbers are arbitrary). The point is reality is subjective from your experiencing point of view. The amount of mental 'superpowers' that can be developed in deep/advanced meditation are near endless.
Meditation is more than the science of exploring the mind. It is also the science of exploring the very fabric of reality, 2 fields which we know very little about.
I could write page after page about the effects of such meditative states from personal experience, and from research and study.
Edited by Siro, 03 April 2013 - 05:17 PM.
