LONGECITY

In spite of spending three hours a day watching TV news, I know very little about why the Ukraine is in turmoil. I found basic information about the history and politics of this country in the CIA World Factbook. I'm not generally a fan of the CIA, but their World Factbook may be o.k. If you happen to be from outside the US, look up your country and see if they got it right.

https://www.cia.gov/...ok/geos/up.html
Edited by Luminosity, 25 February 2014 - 06:48 AM.

If you'd like to get a different point of view on the Ukrainian crisis then check out http://rt.com/ .
I know it's biaised but then again what news source isn't? From my (modest) reading Ukraine, like Syria, Kosovo, Afghanistan ... (pretty much any country where there ever was turmoil) it's always a question of power. The United States and it's allies want to have influence over X,Y,Z and the Russian/Chinese/Pre-cold war germans... want the same thing, it's a sort of confirmation biais on a global scale.

I understand that RT news is put out by the Russian government, which they don't disclose. It's an alternative point of view, but not an independent one. I wish there was an independent, unbiased and accurate source. Thanks for responding.

I understand that RT news is put out by the Russian government, which they don't disclose. It's an alternative point of view, but not an independent one. I wish there was an independent, unbiased and accurate source. Thanks for responding.

Of course, sorry if it sounded as if I meant they were independent, I just feel the best way to form an oppinion is to get as much conflicting views as possible. You know what our ''liberal'' media will say about Ukraine ... fight for democracy...

One thing I've found interested these past few years during revolutions is the info you can get just by following people who are living it on social media, I don't know if you have a twitter or not but following some people who are in the midst of the struggle helps a lot with having a clear view on the situation.

Its pretty straight forward really. During the time of the soviet union, millions of Russians were moved there. Now they are effectively stranded and there is a conflict between the Russian (Ukrainian) people living there and the 'original' Ukrainians. The Russian speakers feel poorly treated and the Ukrainian speakers feel threatened. All this gives Russia a pretext to get involved. Russia wants regional influence so this is a great opportunity to flex its muscles a bit.

All this of course forgets the human element, the people actually living there. The people I know living there are quite terrified and hoping like crazy that it doesn't escalate. People are afraid, ATMs running out of money, stocking up on food, watching all the news even people losing jobs and business. They don't really want a separate state, just to live peacefully alongside one another. They hate that there is killing going on of fellow Ukrainians. The governments need to everything they can to deescalate and quickly. Russia needs to pull back its forces and Ukraines new leaders need to say lots of soothing words about the protection and care of the Russian speakers.

Its pretty straight forward really. During the time of the soviet union, millions of Russians were moved there. Now they are effectively stranded and there is a conflict between the Russian (Ukrainian) people living there and the 'original' Ukrainians. The Russian speakers feel poorly treated and the Ukrainian speakers feel threatened. All this gives Russia a pretext to get involved. Russia wants regional influence so this is a great opportunity to flex its muscles a bit.

All this of course forgets the human element, the people actually living there. The people I know living there are quite terrified and hoping like crazy that it doesn't escalate. People are afraid, ATMs running out of money, stocking up on food, watching all the news even people losing jobs and business. They don't really want a separate state, just to live peacefully alongside one another. They hate that there is killing going on of fellow Ukrainians. The governments need to everything they can to deescalate and quickly. Russia needs to pull back its forces and Ukraines new leaders need to say lots of soothing words about the protection and care of the Russian speakers.

You're taking a moderate pro-west stance on the issue tho.
Looking at it from the other side do you know why Ukraine is so important to Russia and why they're doing everything to keep it? Besides the regional influence it's the gas pipelines.
The EU is dependent on Russian gas exports that go through Ukraine. The situation is much more ideologic than most commentators care to admit: i.e Kosovo.
Back in the 90s one could make the argument that it was communism vs capitalism.... Today it's apparent plutocracy vs behind the scenes plutocracy.China's top dogs are all billionaires because they've realised they don't need to hide behind ''elected'' officials. US's congressmen are (almost) all millionaires, yet the real power hides behind the scene (think of the Sheldon Adelson's for the right and the Buffet's for the left).

This is the same no matter which country you pick: western UK - the cabinet is worth 70 million, eastern - Russia top billionaires are all in politics...
The ''real'' differences are just apparent: in some countries you can have sex and marry who you want, in others you can't.

http://www.bloomberg...ke-paupers.html
http://www.telegraph...-70million.html
http://www.dailymail...thy-Tories.html
http://www.slate.com..._time_ever.html
http://www.rollcall....ress-112th.html

At the end of the day it's all the same, there is no right, there is no wrong. You'll be called a freedom fighter by some, a terrorist by others. You'll need a state license to set up a newspaper in some countries, you'll get bought out by moguls as soon as you're a success in others.
Edited by theconomist, 28 February 2014 - 01:52 PM.

Thanks everyone for contributing to the discussion.

You can watch RT if you are out there for the humour, cause its Kreml propaganda channel. But the subject itself is quite hot and Kreml provocation, by sending his forces inside Crime isn't helping out. The Crime was gifted to Ukraine in soviet time so i guess Kreml feels its still their territory. As there are so many R live in this area I'm sure Crime will be united to R through elections- best case scenario. Im from ex soviet country as well so i know how Ukrainians feel. Don't want to be part of Russia, better be in the EU- so its not like its only western lobby that got the Maidan going. Luckily Estonia didn't lost one soul when we parted from USSR, we singed our selves free( The Singing Revolution). Too bad its not going to be so smooth from the Ukraine- make no mistake, Ukraine until now, has not been free. The president was pure Kreml puppet eg. 2004 they made laws that Yanukovich aka Kreml had more power than parliament. I know Eu is working hard for reducing independence of R gas, its going to be a long lasting issue.

LNG may eventually help eu break free of Russian gas. Russia is looking more and more expansionist. I think if they could get away with it, they would take back all their CIS countrys. Instead they are trying to do it by stealth, using oil money to create an economic union. They want to sit seperate to eu and be a big guy.

Meanwhile ordinary people are left with fear in Ukraine, especially in the Crimea. Nothing good can come out of this. Russia is in this for self interest and prestige. Civil war is a real possibility and if the West backs Ukraine, then things could get really nasty really fast. Thankfully the West would rather sit back and do deals than escalate this.

A Ukrainian guy here.

Is it really that hard to follow?

A corrupt, criminal group in Ukrainian politics from the Party of Regions camp, whose only ideology thus far has been bribery and embezzlement, rose to power. The straw that broke the camel's back was President Yanukovich's refusal to sign the Ukraine-EU association agreement, preferring to appease the anti-Western Russian Federation, which still managed to keep Ukraine on a tight leash thanks to being Ukraine's main supplier of natural gas.

Peaceful protests began on the 21st of November, 2013. Things got serious on the 30th of November, when the peaceful protests were violently dispersed at night by the riot police units — men and women, young and old, actual protesters and random bystanders. Their excuse was absurd: allegedly, the protesters wouldn't have let the authorities set up a Christmas tree on the city square.

The government thought the violence would tame the protests, but instead even more people came out to the streets. There were legislative attempts to repress freedom of speech, of assembly, the right to a fair trial, provoking new riots. The protest lasted through the winter. People were beaten, dispersed, arrested, abducted, some were killed.

All hell broke lose on the 18th of February, when the authorities started actually shooting people down with firearms, even setting the Trade Union Building on fire, making a few of the protesters burn alive. Two people I knew personally were killed by snipers during those bloody days. However, on the 22nd of February, Yanukovich finally gave up and fled, leaving behind his 123 hectares of stolen land, real estate and various treasures. Seeing that their leader had fled, many of his political partners in crime did the same. The opposition took control.

Separatist sentiments broke out in the southeastern parts of Ukraine, which have closer cultural and partly even ethnic ties with Russia, because the Russian media brainwashed them to think that the new government was made up of sundry fascists, radicals and extremists and that the "brown plague" was out to get them. Putin, with his imperialist ambitions, decided it was "now or never" and basically invaded the Crimea peninsula.
Edited by Bogomoletz II, 03 March 2014 - 01:29 AM.

Thanks Bogomoletz, ModusOperandi, and PWAIN. Great to have someone from there, and also near there. Our media covers political events like they were the weather, and they lie a lot.

Thanks Bogomoletz, ModusOperandi, and PWAIN. Great to have someone from there, and also near there. Our media covers political events like they were the weather, and they lie a lot.

You're welcome. What media do you mean by "our media," and what lies exactly do they tell?

The mainstream media in the US. Here's one lie: "There's weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. We have to invade them." So we did and thousands of people died, ours and theirs.

Can you refute this article? It's about how some events in the Ukraine are being done to benefit Western financial interests and the IMF? Not saying it's true, just saying I'd like to hear you refute it, if you want to.

http://www.infowars....-auction-block/
Edited by Luminosity, 04 March 2014 - 06:58 AM.