LONGECITY

Recently I did some low-level-laser therapy while there was still some C60 in my system. I hadn't recently taken it but it was still in my lipid bi-layer - I know because I'm still not getting any sunburn at all. I did the LLLT on my head, at all 20 EEG spots, having forgotten that I was C60 modified and not thinking there would be any problems.

The first few hours after the LLLT continued as is normal for me after dosing - foggy brain, less clarity etc. Then about 4 hours later clarity sets in and I feel pretty good. At this point my mind is flying all over the place (in a good way), as is usual once some time has passed after the laser dosage. About another 4 hours after that, I sit down and eat some food, then suddenly my mind lapses into a severe confusion. Previously having an animated conversation with my friend, suddenly I can barely form sentences. I feel really out of it. I say goodbye to my friend and go back to the library, but I can't really think now, so I start walking home. The walk is a couple of miles out from the library. I walk back in a strange fog, that feels wrong, different to for example an allergen induced fog - more completely disruptive of my brain function... half way back I get this intense feeling of depression, out of literally nowhere. I almost tear up in the middle of the street. This is very strange, as I'm usually a very emotionally stable person and there are really no events going on in my life that would warrant any such outburst. Plus, it was combined with the fog, which makes me think it was caused by the laser + C60. I've never ever had similar reactions to these before from just LLLT.

That night I sleep approximately 12 hours, wake up feeling groggy. Still can't think straight. Verbal fluency is shot. My mind, usually a buzzing arena of enjoyable abstractions is pretty much dead. My awareness is decreased substantially, I find it difficult to be mindful of things. I feel almost as if I'm not there. My short-term memory is also fucked. These same symptoms have continued but slowly lessened in their severity, until I thought to post this, which I think is about 5 days later. I'm still not back to my usual self, although I'd say I'm probably 80% recovered. Still, those extra percent make all the difference to higher-level thought processes. I still can't think, or communicate, like I could before I did this. And I'm still sleeping about 11-12 hours a day and not feeling fully rested when I wake. I'm thinking of discontinuing C60. This episode has scared me quite a bit, and I don't want to give up the awesome benefits of the laser. This post in general hopefully serves as a warning to those who might combine them. But I also wanted to ask a few questions...

First, do we have any idea how long C60 takes to come out of the cellular bi-layer? 1 month? 1 week?
And how could this negative interaction above occur? My biochemistry knowledge is practically non-existent, but in my confused paranoid state I obviously came up with some hypotheses to try and understand what the hell happened to me. We know that LLLT works by hormesis, in part by inducing the creation of Reactive Oxygen Species by upregulating mitochondrial action. And C60 is thought to embed both in the lipid bilayer and in the areas around mitochondria, hence why it's so useful - it neutralises free-radicals at the source. I speculated that the flood of ROS induced by LLLT would load the C60 molecules so much that they either became so negatively charged that the ones close to each other in the bilayers repelled each other to the degree that they ripped open the bilayer, causing widespread havoc across my cerebral cortex OR they became so charged they disrupted other non-oxidation related cellular processes. To be honest though that's just complete speculation. It definitely felt like something severe was going on. What do you think could have happened here? Is there any way I might speed up the process of recovery? Thanks for reading, I appreciate any input.
Edited by OpaqueMind, 02 April 2014 - 11:51 AM.

Were you starting off with particularly long LLLT sessions? Are you using the Ebay LEDs or some stronger source?

I'd estimate the half life of c60 is about ten days, but half life is only half the story. The other half is the absolute amount that you need to see an effect, versus the amount that you have consumed. It takes very little c60 to show many of the effects we see. Thus, depending on how much you've consumed, it might take anywhere from one to a large number of half lives to see the concentration fall to a negligible level.

A lot of people are using c60, and a lot of people are doing LLLT. I hope there is enough overlap that we can figure out if c60 was really involved in the event or not. If there's anyone out there using both c60 and LLLT, please post here. If the mechanism of action of IR laser stimulation is ROS production, then I think it's plausible that there's an interaction. However, the interaction that makes the most sense is that c60 would counteract the LLLT and just make it work less good. I can't think of any obvious mechanism for what you experienced, but I certainly can't rule it out. I can at least tell you that your speculation of high charge development, cell shredding, etc would not happen. It would have been more subtle than that.

The best way to speed up recovery is probably to sleep well and pay a little more attention than usual to your circadian rhythms. Don't stay up too late, and generally try to live a healthy lifestyle. Your body has amazing capacity for regeneration, just give it time to work.

However, the interaction that makes the most sense is that c60 would counteract the LLLT and just make it work less good.

It's known that photoirradiation of C60 can produce ROS, and it's known that LLLT can increase ROS, so you'd think that the combination would produce even more ROS.

Were you starting off with particularly long LLLT sessions? Are you using the Ebay LEDs or some stronger source?

I've been doing LLLT on and off for over a year, and I've never experienced anything resembling this kind of reaction. The sessions weren't particularly long, one minute per spot, and they were done with the vetrolaser. I've done twice this amount in the past with no adverse reactions, which suggests something was contraindicated this time around.

I'd estimate the half life of c60 is about ten days, but half life is only half the story. The other half is the absolute amount that you need to see an effect, versus the amount that you have consumed. It takes very little c60 to show many of the effects we see. Thus, depending on how much you've consumed, it might take anywhere from one to a large number of half lives to see the concentration fall to a negligible level.

A lot of people are using c60, and a lot of people are doing LLLT. I hope there is enough overlap that we can figure out if c60 was really involved in the event or not. If there's anyone out there using both c60 and LLLT, please post here. If the mechanism of action of IR laser stimulation is ROS production, then I think it's plausible that there's an interaction. However, the interaction that makes the most sense is that c60 would counteract the LLLT and just make it work less good. I can't think of any obvious mechanism for what you experienced, but I certainly can't rule it out. I can at least tell you that your speculation of high charge development, cell shredding, etc would not happen. It would have been more subtle than that.

The best way to speed up recovery is probably to sleep well and pay a little more attention than usual to your circadian rhythms. Don't stay up too late, and generally try to live a healthy lifestyle. Your body has amazing capacity for regeneration, just give it time to work.

Thanks for the advice niner, I'll definitely listen to my body clock and try and be as healthy as possible. I took some uridine this morning to try and speed up the process and I feel considerably better, although still a little scatter-brained. It's true we can't tell whether c60 was really involved at this time. The only other factor that has been different in comparison to my previous laser uses has been my use of neurofeedback within a few days of treatment. I can't see how that would effect me so severely though. As far as I know it's essentially just inducing large amounts of directed synaptic plasticity. Then again one hypothesis for how BiPolar neurofeedback (which I was doing) works is through hormesis, and it's not good to stack hormetic mechanisms. I hadn't thought about that. Hmmm. It'd definitely be good for anyone else both using c60 and LLLT to document here their reactions, or lack thereof.

I've used an extremely strong 904nm laser (Watts of power, http://www.theralaser.com/ ) on my Wisdom Teeth sockets recently while also being heavily dosed with C60 with no issues. I notice nothing but positive effects from 5 minutes on each side of my jaw. (This is an issue that comes back every few years or so for me, so I hit it with the laser for a few weeks and the problems are gone). I also get plenty of sun exposure and have not noticed anything but a possible protective effect on both skin and vision.

So in short I don't buy (personally for me) into the effects of light therapy being made excessively toxic by C60. However we are all individuals and YMMV.
I don't think short bursts of massive oxidation are bad (same with inflammation on a massive but very short term scale -- 20 rep dead-lifts anyone?) --- as long as there is adequate recovery and adaptation time. It's the chronic stuff that gets you.

Some of what you are describing sounds like Sinus yeast die off, or tooth / gum detox from bacteria or metals. Any chronic sinus issues? Loss of taste or smell? Gum Disease? Do you have mercury amalgams in your mouth?

It's known that photoirradiation of C60 can produce ROS

Not in the infrared. That only works in UV/VIS. Even at that, you'd need to be way down in the blue violet end of visible. The absorption is pretty much zip at wavelengths longer than 500nm or so. Aggregation state has a significant impact, with aggregates being much more prone to photoproduced ROS than are single molecule species.

It's known that photoirradiation of C60 can produce ROS

Not in the infrared.

Assuming there is no two-photon excitation, and assuming the adducts are not acting as antenna.

For PS [photosensitizing] to be useful in vivo it is considered that the light used to excite [fullerenes] should be in the red/near-infrared spectral region where scattering and absorption of light by tissue is minimized. This unfavorable absorption spectrum of fullerenes can be overcome by various strategies such as covalent attachment of light-harvesting antennae to fullerenes by using optical clearing agents or by applying two-photon excitation where two near-infrared photons are simultaneously delivered to be equivalent to one photon of twice the energy (and half the wavelength, so that two 800 nm photons are equivalent to one 400 nm photon).

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3433279/

Edited by Turnbuckle, 02 April 2014 - 09:05 PM.

Assuming there is no two-photon excitation, and assuming the adducts are not acting as antenna.

I guarantee that an alkyl chain will not act as a light harvesting antenna for c60. Two-photon absorption is a pretty rare phenomenon and is only seen at very high photon intensities. I think this is a huge stretch.

This thread could also be titled "Severe problems doing LLLT while breathing oxygen".

I'm not convinced that c60 even makes it into the outer layers of my skin from taking c60/oo orally. I know a number of folks believe it protects them from sunburn but I did not experience that myself last summer when I burned quite severely after exposing without sunscreen before I had acclimated with a base tan. This past winter while vacationing in Fla I did properly acclimate, developed a nice base tan, and was fine thereafter even without further use of sunscreen... note that I was careful to continue using sunscreen on areas like the back of my hands and scalp where I had been applying c60 topically. Being burn resistant has always been the norm for me once I had developed a base tan. I think its an Italian thing. It seems to me that if c60/oo had worked its way into my outer skin layers that it would have been damaged by UV exposure, turned into a pro oxidant, and then would accelerate burning.

Howard
Edited by hav, 03 April 2014 - 09:47 AM.

Assuming there is no two-photon excitation, and assuming the adducts are not acting as antenna.

I guarantee that an alkyl chain will not act as a light harvesting antenna for c60.

Do we know that only alkyl chains are reacting with the C60? In olive oil, I'd expect a witch's brew of adducts.

Do we know that only alkyl chains are reacting with the C60? In olive oil, I'd expect a witch's brew of adducts.

Well, we know that it c60 reacts very well with oleic acid, based on hav's experiment where he found that ethyl oleate consumed significantly more c60 than olive oil does- just under 2 mg/ml, compared to 0.8-0.9 mg/ml for olive oil. Olive oil is 55-83% oleic, with the balance being mostly 18:2 and saturates. We also know from Cataldo's work that c60 reacts with a variety of purified vegetable oils and alkenes, so I suspect that oleate adducts account for the vast majority of it. It's true that there's kind of a witch's brew when you start considering epoxide formation followed by reaction of phenols with the c60 epoxide. That's a slow process, and probably isn't a big factor, but you're right that there is a large potential for chemistry to happen.

I've taken both together on a few occasions .  The only interaction I've noticed is decreased ROS from LLLT, evidenced by not getting fatigued from LLLT after usage.  I think it reduces some of the positive effects of LLLT, but I would've noticed negative effects.  

 

I'm betting you didn't have enough C60 in your system and your antioxidant defenses aren't functioning properly to compensate.   

Well I'm thinking about going in on LLLT and I'm curious if anyone else on this forum has combined the two?

Well I'm thinking about going in on LLLT and I'm curious if anyone else on this forum has combined the two?

 

I have with no problems. Starting at 15 seconds per spot, and increasing slowly.

Edited by Razor444, 17 March 2015 - 10:36 PM.

IPL is also not working as long as I take C60oo. Normally hair fall out 3-4 days after application with my IPL-device. On C60 nothing happens. It just burns the outstanding hair... that's all.

I think that this two studies could give a better idea about the interaction between c60oo and LLLT
However the light spectrum is in the visible light:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19371265

Biological safety of LipoFullerene composed of squalane and fullerene-C60 upon mutagenesis, photocytotoxicity, and permeability into the human skin tissue.
Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19482914

Biological safety of liposome-fullerene consisting of hydrogenated lecithin, glycine soja sterols, and fullerene-C60 upon photocytotoxicity and bacterial reverse mutagenicity.
Abstract

 

Edited by BieraK, 06 May 2015 - 11:31 PM.

Here is the study I was talking about Bierak, also sent it as a pm

This rabbit study is probably not using lipofullerenes.

 

 

 

Abstract

The purpose of this study was to evaluate Fullerene as a therapeutic photosensitizer in the treatment of atherosclerosis. An atherosclerotic experimental rabbit model was prepared by causing intimal injury to bilateral external iliac arteries using balloon expansion. In four atherosclerotic rabbits and one normal rabbit, polyethylene glycol-modified Fullerene (Fullerene-PEG) was infused into the left external iliac artery and illuminated by light emitting diode (LED), while the right external iliac artery was only illuminated by LED. Two weeks later, the histological findings for each iliac artery were evaluated quantitatively and comparisons were made among atherosclerotic Fullerene+LED artery (n = 4), atherosclerotic light artery (n = 4), normal Fullerene+LED artery (n = 1), and normal light artery (n = 1). An additional two atherosclerotic rabbits were studied by fluorescence microscopy, after Fullerene-PEG-Cy5 complex infusion into the left external iliac artery, for evaluation of Fullerene-PEG incorporated within the atherosclerotic lesions. The degree of atherosclerosis in the atherosclerotic Fullerene+LED artery was significantly (p < 0.05) more severe than that in the atherosclerotic LED artery. No pathological change was observed in normal Fullerene+LED and LED arteries. In addition, strong accumulation of Fullerene-PEG-Cy5 complex within the plaque of the left iliac artery of the two rabbits was demonstrated, in contrast to no accumulation in the right iliac artery. We conclude that infusion of a high concentration of Fullerene-PEG followed by photo-illumination resulted not in a suppression of atherosclerosis but in a progression of atherosclerosis in experimental rabbit models. However, this intervention showed no adverse effects on the normal iliac artery.

 

I've done LLLT while dosing C60 regularly, over a course of two months. I got a noticable RT decrease effect, but nothing else obvious on the gains side from LLLT. No side effects anything like those in the OP, although I did develop a persistent, otherwise unexplained insomnia concurrent to both starting LLLT and starting the schoolyear at uni, which in hindsight I shouldn't have allowed to coincide in time.

 

I'm also getting roughly the expected effects from IPL hair removal, although I can't guarrantee that they wouldn't be bigger without C60. Patchy, reduced regrowth (at this stage). I'm doing nearly full body IPL now, and did a six-session course for my chest and stomach about two years ago; and although I am not sure whether I was taking C60 back then, I did get persistently reduced hair growth then, and my intermittent results from this course are comparable to what I saw from the first one.

 

My tentative appraisal is that the link between the OP's effects and the C60/LLLT combination is pretty tenous at this time.

Edited by Raza, 09 June 2015 - 07:47 AM.