Aging is not a disease,it is a important p...
VictorBjoerk 13 Jul 2008
The swedish health minister Maria Larsson says that aging is not a disease.
"it is important to change our minds,aging is not a disease,it is a natural part of the human life cycle"
However she argues that much more money should be spent on elderly care which is good.........
But I would have liked if she had stated "aging is a disease,let's focus our resources on a cure"
lightowl 13 Jul 2008
Its sounds like a typical values loaded politicians answer. Perhaps its a good thing that politicians start expressing such opinions. It provides an opportunity to argue against them. If they don't have better arguments than that, it should be rather easy to shoot down.... So, heart surgery, toxic cancer treatments and airplanes are not natural. Should we stop using them?
Edited by lightowl, 13 July 2008 - 03:14 PM.
VictorBjoerk 13 Jul 2008
I'm not qualified to argue against her and the purpose of the debate is not aging it's about that she wants to improve the quality of the elder care.
I think she writes the sentence " when we get old,frail and dependent" at least a dozen of times. How depressing....
Edited by Shonghow, 13 July 2008 - 03:59 PM.
VictorBjoerk 13 Jul 2008
lightowl 13 Jul 2008
Yea, its sad really. I rather like the argument that longer healthy life will be beneficial to the economy, due to a greater number of productive years in a lifetime, regardless of a complete cure for aging. Extending that logic there is no reason politics cant actively extend healthy lifespan while still arguing that "growing old" is natural and good. If extending healthy life is good, then there shouldn't be a logical limit to how long we live in that healthy state. I think we are probably "only" talking about a period of 30-50 years of delay this "aging is natural" mindset is going to cause on the fight against aging. After that the bio-tech revolution will probably have made it "easy" to cure aging (hopefully). Looking at the speed of discovery and innovation in bio-tech today, it is a cause for great optimism that its only a matter of time now (provided the world doesn't go completely belly-up by some catastrophe).However most people don't think of aging as a disease but a natural part of the life cycle.....
Edited by lightowl, 13 July 2008 - 06:26 PM.
Mind 13 Jul 2008
siberia 13 Jul 2008
In general I think it's a good idea to comment such ideas wherever they arise, even in small country newspapers, but am not sure, of course. I have been thinking about writing a letter to the editor to send to various newspapers about this, how we view death and aging, focusing on how little attention it gets while it is what it is (degeneration, suffering...), sharing the more rational life extensionist view without naming it so. I actually think that something like that can be published, at least somewhere, if written in the right way.
Wouldn't this be the best topic to discuss attitude-changing-wise?
Edited by siberia, 14 July 2008 - 01:15 PM.
Shoe 13 Jul 2008
lightowl 14 Jul 2008
Yikes. I feel sorry for you guys. Its almost as bad as our situation, having fundamental nationalists as a minority-government support party. They have just too much power. Fortunately Denmark is small, so they cant really do anything about the proliferation of the global workforce. At least your minister is to the left.She's a member of the Christian Democratic party
That was my thought too when reading the article, with my limited Swedish language skills. I agree with her that government should provide care for poor disabled (but regardless of the cause of disability).I don't think what she said was meant to be taken as a statement against immortalism
Yea, one good example is the "In Pursuit of the Longevity Dividend"Persuading politicians to support healthy life extension should be much easier that arguing we should try to end death altogether.
VictorBjoerk 14 Jul 2008
Does she expect anything good will come from that?
Regardless what you label aging it is a fact that it is a big social problem for society not to mention the horror for the old people themselves.
I think it is a good idea to spend resources to improve the quality of life for elderly but even if even more resources are spent on elderly making sure they get better food,antidepressive drugs, and activities to participate in it is still such a horror being frail and decrepit.
I understand her idealistic vision of a society where suffering and death can be "served on a silver plate" but the fact is that it is difficult .
VictorBjoerk 18 Jul 2008
"Aging is a natural part of life and we must realize that old age and the dying process is a very meaningful part of the human life cycle"
I almost didn't believe this was true until I saw it. The article was meant to encourage people to care more for elderly by the government.
katzenjammer 18 Jul 2008
advancedatheist 18 Jul 2008
Shoe 18 Jul 2008
http://www.dn.se/DNe...p?d=52&a=778621
"Aging is a natural part of life and we must realize that old age and the dying process is a very meaningful part of the human life cycle"
I almost didn't believe this was true until I saw it. The article was meant to encourage people to care more for elderly by the government.
Wrong link, it seems.
Ghostrider 19 Jul 2008
A cannot be obtained.
Therefore, ~A is natural and therefore good.
VictorBjoerk 21 Jul 2008
I think the author's line of thinking is:
A cannot be obtained.
Therefore, ~A is natural and therefore good.
Yes as many people have pointed out " the Stockholm syndrome"
Proconsul 15 Nov 2008
Yikes. I feel sorry for you guys. Its almost as bad as our situation, having fundamental nationalists as a minority-government support party. They have just too much power. Fortunately Denmark is small, so they cant really do anything about the proliferation of the global workforce. At least your minister is to the left.She's a member of the Christian Democratic party
That was my thought too when reading the article, with my limited Swedish language skills. I agree with her that government should provide care for poor disabled (but regardless of the cause of disability).I don't think what she said was meant to be taken as a statement against immortalism
Wait-a-minute pal! What has nationalism to do with this? I'm a nationalist and I'm for life extension and transhumanism as well. If it is the Danske Folkeparti you are referring to, they are doing a great job, and I wish nationalist parties in Sweden were as influential (Christian Democrats are NOT a nationalist party)! And what u mean about the 'global workforce'? Solving our low birth rate by importing skilled (and unskilled) immigrants from countries that btw need them for their own development? And if Europe spended more in health care and research instead than wasting money taking false refugees who then often despise the host countries, we would be far better. But this is not the forum for such discussions.
Edited by Proconsul, 15 November 2008 - 01:09 AM.
lightowl 15 Nov 2008
Nothing, I just don't like nationalism in the extremist form. Its narrow minded and lead to hatred of anything that is different and foreign.What has nationalism to do with this?
Yep, its that us vs. them mentality I don't like. Giving poor workers high paying jobs in the west is pulling a lot of people out of poverty. Many of those people are continuing to support their families in their home country.Solving our low birth rate by importing skilled (and unskilled) immigrants from countries that btw need them for their own development?
Dansk Folkeparti are a bunch of narrow minded assholes if you ask me. They only care about their own interests. Such people should not be allowed minority power. They hate foreigners so much that they are willing to compromise their own socialistic values just to make life miserable for a few unfortunate refugees. Its quite disgusting.
Edited by lightowl, 15 November 2008 - 10:56 AM.
Utnapishtim 15 Nov 2008
Solving our low birth rate by importing skilled (and unskilled) immigrants from countries that btw need them for their own development?
[/quote]
Hmm.. So people are the property of their respective countries? The development needs of their countries trump their own desires and dreams? Societies is there to serve people not the other way around, in my opinion. I am not my governments property.
Proconsul 16 Nov 2008
No, of course not, but in my view the collective interests should predominate over the individual ones. At least when laws and regulations are concerned.Hmm.. So people are the property of their respective countries? The development needs of their countries trump their own desires and dreams? Societies is there to serve people not the other way around, in my opinion. I am not my governments property.
Proconsul 16 Nov 2008
Nothing, I just don't like nationalism in the extremist form. Its narrow minded and lead to hatred of anything that is different and foreign.What has nationalism to do with this?
Yep, its that us vs. them mentality I don't like. Giving poor workers high paying jobs in the west is pulling a lot of people out of poverty. Many of those people are continuing to support their families in their home country.Solving our low birth rate by importing skilled (and unskilled) immigrants from countries that btw need them for their own development?
Dansk Folkeparti are a bunch of narrow minded assholes if you ask me. They only care about their own interests. Such people should not be allowed minority power. They hate foreigners so much that they are willing to compromise their own socialistic values just to make life miserable for a few unfortunate refugees. Its quite disgusting.
Well, then I'm a narrow minded asshole too because I agree with them. And if the 'few unfortunate refugees' - which are not few, often not so unfortunate, and mostly not even refugees - are messing with your country, acting violently, and despising or even hating the society that give them hospitality, then definitevely DF is correct to give priority to this problem. But hey, for me it's ok if u for instance want to share your flat with one of those 'unfortunates'... or if one of them hits your cheek cuz you are a 'danskjävel' you can surely present them the other cheek... after all it's only right that people who wants to impose burdens on the society start bearing these burdens too...
I don't want to continue this discussion because it's OT and risks to poison this forum. I just don't cease to be amazed how people totally refuse to see reality even when are rubbed against it... and to end it: let's see how life extension and transhumanism will be carried on when certain 'unfortunate' religions (I don't name it but it's obvious what I'm thinking to) will have even more influence and power in Europe.
lightowl 16 Nov 2008
Agreed.Well, then I'm a narrow minded asshole too because I agree with them.
You brought up refugees. If you don't like foreigners, refugees should be the least of your worries. Fortunately a majority of people in DK don't hate foreigners as DF does. In fact the current government want to bring in more foreign workers, though DF will fight with all their will to limit that.And if the 'few unfortunate refugees' - which are not few, often not so unfortunate, and mostly not even refugees
Its typical for extremists to take it to the extremes. Who is forcing anyone to share their flat with refugees? Its not an issue. Criminal elements should be dealt with, but banning refugees and foreners is not a viable solution. It is however the only solution that is acceptable for those who are afraid of the rest of the world.But hey, for me it's ok if u for instance want to share your flat with one of those 'unfortunates'
If you don't want to discuss things you should make an example and stop. Making your points and then stating that you wont discuss it is rather silly. Don't worry about poisoning. The mods will take care of it if they see fit.I don't want to continue this discussion because it's OT and risks to poison this forum.
Edited by lightowl, 16 November 2008 - 12:46 PM.
SinewySam 21 Jan 2009
One of my sisters is a chaplain in a hospital. The other day she informed me that the whole problem with our medical industry is that people are just living too long. She was quite serious. There's something sinister about a chaplain saying this, isn't there?
Wow that just gave me spooks! /shiver
Although, life extension+poor health (the kind that puts you in a hospital to begin with) does seem like a crappy equation.
What we need is old people with no need for hospitals.
What we need is a lack of need; interesting..
caston 24 May 2009
Well yes and no. Aging does occur naturally but the next thing that occurs is that the aged animal becomes an easy meal for the youthful offspring of it's nearest predator. What is unnatural is for this aged animal to survive. What is especially unnatural is having the animals form a sophisticated society where vast resources are invested in keeping these aged animals alive. This occurs to the point where a very significant and rapid increasing portion of their population is aging.
Moral aspects aside it will get to the point where each young and able bodied person needs to be able to support 2+ aged people. These resources could otherwise be invested in having more children which would increase the pool of labor able to care for the aged.
So we find ourselves in a vicious cycle where the aged are a significant drain on our society. Putting more and more resources into aged care instead of investing it in young families will make the cycle worse.
Investing the money into a) forming new families and b) technologies to slow and reverse aging in quarter and middle aged people will mitigate the trend towards an aged society.
The economic growth gained from a and b should deliver a surplus allowing the care for the aged. The actual "aged demographic" is a demographic we want to keep as small as possible and by any means necessary with the exception of the forced euthanasia of the aged.
Edited by caston, 24 May 2009 - 11:51 AM.
VictorBjoerk 24 May 2009
Is aging natural?
Well yes and no. Aging does occur naturally but the next thing that occurs is that the aged animal becomes an easy meal for the youthful offspring of it's nearest predator. What is unnatural is for this aged animal to survive. What is especially unnatural is having the animals form a sophisticated society where vast resources are invested in keeping these aged animals alive. This occurs to the point where a very significant and rapid increasing portion of their population is aging.
Moral aspects aside it will get to the point where each young and able bodied person needs to be able to support 2+ aged people. These resources could otherwise be invested in having more children which would increase the pool of labor able to care for the aged.
So we find ourselves in a vicious cycle where the aged are a significant drain on our society. Putting more and more resources into aged care instead of investing it in young families will make the cycle worse.
Investing the money into a) forming new families and b) technologies to slow and reverse aging in quarter and middle aged people will mitigate the trend towards an aged society.
The economic growth gained from a and b should deliver a surplus allowing the care for the aged. The actual "aged demographic" is a demographic we want to keep as small as possible and by any means necessary with the exception of the forced euthanasia of the aged.
Caston: You may like to read my essay in the articles and creative subforum
Cassox 25 May 2009
Cassox 25 May 2009
Homosexuality isn't natural.
Herbs are safer than drugs because they are all natural.
Natural childbirth is much better than c-section, especially if you don't use analgesics.
Disabilities such as Down Syndrome are natural, and thus genetic counseling/adaption is bad. (Think I'm making this up? Look at disabilityisnatural.com)
Hmmm... anything at all that says "Natural remedy" pretty much should be labeled as "snake oil."
I think I have a new hypothesis. Anyone who uses the description "natural" as a selling point is an idiot. Naturally, I'll have to design some rigorous double blind studies.
jdgauchat 26 May 2009
Any deadly virus or bacteria is part of nature as well, but we fight against this disgusting natural structures.
The problem of human kind is the world of fantasy we live on that push us to die and disappear from existence and be happy with that.