Shoes Are Killing Us
nushu 21 Aug 2008
Vibrum Five Fingers (anti shoes)- http://www.vibramfiv...ducts/index.cfm
Vivo Barefoot (more anti shoes!)- http://www.terraplana.com/vivobarefoot
I own both kinds, Five Fingers for training and Vivos for work/everyday wear. The Vivos are sized small, if you get em you need to get one size bigger than you'd normally wear. It's funny, I never thought I'd give a squat about shoes- but I'll never go back now.
cyborgdreamer 21 Aug 2008
nushu 21 Aug 2008
I'm not advocating going barefoot, but there are shoes like the Vibrams and Vivos that work with your feet instead of against them. Since I've starting wearing these shoes my knees, back, and shin splints no longer bother me. I think the reason why many people feel crappy walking barefoot is because they have forgotten how to properly walk because of the way conventional foot ware alters our gait. It can be relearned, I did it in a couple days.
kismet 22 Aug 2008
Getting used to lightweight shoes is a necessity for serious athletes anyway. They are great for a lot of sports. Shoes are an important part of your training equipment.
As far as I remember those articles were pretty interesting:
http://www.sportsci....our/0103/mw.htm
http://www.quickswoo...ootwe.html#more
mike250 22 Aug 2008
nushu 22 Aug 2008
Look at the feet of folks from parts of the world where shoe wearing is less common- robust feet with nicely spread toes that almost look prehensile. Now look at the feet of Westerners, ever muscular athletic men, and usually you see a frail looking foot with toes bunched together. Often the little toe curls under the adjacent toe, like a turtle trying to retreat into the comfort of his shell.
Edited by nushu, 22 August 2008 - 02:29 PM.
buck1s 22 Aug 2008
nushu 22 Aug 2008
I'm not sure how I feel about the look of the Vibram product, but if there's one I'm willing to try, it's that one. Every pair of Merrell shoes I've owned has had a Vibram sole and these are the most comfortable shoes I've ever owned. I'm sure that I'll look like a crazy person out walking the dog, looking at my feet, and bursting into laughter. Over and over.
The responses I've received from wearing the Five Fingers in public have all been positive, people want to know what kind of shoes they are, how they feel etc. The Vivo Barefoot shoes have the benefit of looking like any other shoe, these are what I wear to work, and in more formal situations.
kismet 22 Aug 2008
- new age hippie crap "barefoot is cool, nature is great"
- going barefoot or using lightweight shoes (vibrams, nike mayfly) to improve performance
- rehab/prehab/strengthening of the feet by going (almost) barefoot
- injury prevention.
That article adresses the latter and also the performance aspects. Epidemiological data shows unshod runners are less likely to suffer injury, but there are no controlled trials.
"Where barefoot and shod populations co-exist, as in Haiti, injury rates of the lower extremity are substantially higher in the shod population..."
"The modern running shoe and footwear generally reduce sensory feedback, apparently without diminishing injury-inducing impact–a process Robbins and Gouw (1991) described as the 'perceptual illusion' of athletic footwear. "
"Measurements of the vertical component of ground-reaction force during running provide no support for the notion that running shoes reduce shock...However, in these studies the subjects ran on treadmills or force platforms..."
That article also talks about running efficiency, shoes and sport. Though, this is a no-brainer. [competetive] sprinters are going to use lightweight spikes, marathon runners lightweight trainers (<300g) or even something in the ballpark of the nike mayfly.
Why do we still need shoes? "shoes should be considered protective devices (from dangerous or painful objects) rather than corrective devices [in the healthy]"
However, the article is pretty old, so the best summary might be "Rome K, Hancock D, Poratt D. Barefoot running and walking: the pros and cons based on current evidence. N Z Med J. 2008 Apr 18;121(1272):109-11." I'd really want to get hold of the full version.
I'm just not sure if barefoot running can help with the rehab/strengthening aspect nor which shoe would be best suited for freerunning, so if anyone can tell me, please do.
http://www.quickswoo...ootwe.html#more states:
In an article in the October 1997 Runner's World, Adam Bean gives the following advice: "Running barefoot a couple of times per week can decrease your risk of injury and boost your 'push-off' power."
mitkat 22 Aug 2008
Bullshit.
I expected more of a response from you, Shoe!
As for the vibram five toed shoes themselves, you could get away with wearing them some places, some not imo. Depending on who you are, what you're comfortable with, etc you could wear them during exercise where ever that may take you. I'm liking a lot of what I'm reading about barefoot exercising and may just consider getting a pair of these in the future when more...ahem, styles become available.
Edited by mitkat, 22 August 2008 - 07:35 PM.
Shoe 23 Aug 2008
You mean going barefoot or using lightweight shoes is bullshit i.e. useless? The idea sounds reasonable, it should help your feet to become more stable. Anyway this is a really big thing on sport/training boards like rosstraining. Especially the vibrams.
Getting used to lightweight shoes is a necessity for serious athletes anyway. They are great for a lot of sports. Shoes are an important part of your training equipment.
As far as I remember those articles were pretty interesting:
http://www.sportsci....our/0103/mw.htm
http://www.quickswoo...ootwe.html#more
Haha, sorry, I wasn't being serious. I just thought to myself that the title could be read as saying "people named Shoe are killing us".
nushu 27 Aug 2008
We have to disgtinguish
- new age hippie crap "barefoot is cool, nature is great"
- going barefoot or using lightweight shoes (vibrams, nike mayfly) to improve performance
- rehab/prehab/strengthening of the feet by going (almost) barefoot
- injury prevention.
That article adresses the latter and also the performance aspects. Epidemiological data shows unshod runners are less likely to suffer injury, but there are no controlled trials.
"Where barefoot and shod populations co-exist, as in Haiti, injury rates of the lower extremity are substantially higher in the shod population..."
"The modern running shoe and footwear generally reduce sensory feedback, apparently without diminishing injury-inducing impact–a process Robbins and Gouw (1991) described as the 'perceptual illusion' of athletic footwear. "
"Measurements of the vertical component of ground-reaction force during running provide no support for the notion that running shoes reduce shock...However, in these studies the subjects ran on treadmills or force platforms..."
That article also talks about running efficiency, shoes and sport. Though, this is a no-brainer. [competetive] sprinters are going to use lightweight spikes, marathon runners lightweight trainers (<300g) or even something in the ballpark of the nike mayfly.
Why do we still need shoes? "shoes should be considered protective devices (from dangerous or painful objects) rather than corrective devices [in the healthy]"
However, the article is pretty old, so the best summary might be "Rome K, Hancock D, Poratt D. Barefoot running and walking: the pros and cons based on current evidence. N Z Med J. 2008 Apr 18;121(1272):109-11." I'd really want to get hold of the full version.
I'm just not sure if barefoot running can help with the rehab/strengthening aspect nor which shoe would be best suited for freerunning, so if anyone can tell me, please do.
http://www.quickswoo...ootwe.html#more states:
In an article in the October 1997 Runner's World, Adam Bean gives the following advice: "Running barefoot a couple of times per week can decrease your risk of injury and boost your 'push-off' power."
I've been wearing the Vibrams out to restaurants and the like, have gotten a couple glances but nothing negative.
katzenjammer 27 Aug 2008
The fact is, most people/runners have incredibly bad body mechanics. Watch even very accomplished runners and nine times out of ten you will be watching him/her heel strike.
Heel striking is an inefficient running style that is very bad for your joints. It's also only made possible with modern sneakers. If you don't believe me, go outside in barefeet or vibrams and go for a run with a heel-striking stride and see how far you get.
kismet 27 Aug 2008
BTW: as an reminder please vote for 'undergrads fighting age related disease' if you haven't, great job so far http://www.memberspr...ect/view/BVVE2C
katzenjammer 28 Aug 2008
I am going to buy the vibram fivefingers soon, even though they're quite a rip-off, aren't they? I'd have to pay 100€ for going almost barefoot, that's ridiculous. All that because there's no competition out there...
I think the design ("five fingers") probably makes manufacturing a little expensive. They're very well constructed & incredibly durable.
nushu 04 Sep 2008
katzenjammer 04 Sep 2008
Quick update: just spent the weekend in the Appalachian Mountains and put the Five Fingers to the test- 5 mile hike over some of the roughest terrain I've been on in years. My ability to trek over all the steep slopes, rocks, and roots was improved, maintained a fast pace too. For the first time hiking I felt like I didn't need my trekking poles. No foot blisters or joint pain from the excursion!
Hey, fabulous! I'm going up to Lake of the Clouds/Washington next week. My Limmers are still being repaired. Maybe I'll try my Fives. Probably not such a hot idea with a pack though, eh? Even without one, though, I'd think the rocks would be a bit much. Tough guy, eh?
xispes 05 Sep 2008
They are very comfortable after the first few days (two first days you feel a few adjusting pains)
I really want to use this always. Can’t wait to get out of work to wear them.
Brings freedom to your toes, get's you "connected to the earth"
In the beginning of this thread I was so curious that I went to their site.
Five minutes later found a shop and got them.
Luckily i have a semi-perfect fit with the size 41 (26cm foot)
Very nice.
I would like to see people share interesting products and so functional.
I was reluctant to spend 90€ on a piece of rubber, but it paid off.
When I take off my normal shoes i notice that the fingers are all joined and almost overlapping.
When i take off the "five fingers" the fingers are straight and individually spaced in a more natural position.
Good Health.
Luis
nushu 22 Sep 2008
liorrh 24 Sep 2008
Let me share my experience with the vibram five fingers.
They are very comfortable after the first few days (two first days you feel a few adjusting pains)
I really want to use this always. Can’t wait to get out of work to wear them.
Brings freedom to your toes, get's you "connected to the earth"
In the beginning of this thread I was so curious that I went to their site.
Five minutes later found a shop and got them.
Luckily i have a semi-perfect fit with the size 41 (26cm foot)
Very nice.
I would like to see people share interesting products and so functional.
I was reluctant to spend 90€ on a piece of rubber, but it paid off.
When I take off my normal shoes i notice that the fingers are all joined and almost overlapping.
When i take off the "five fingers" the fingers are straight and individually spaced in a more natural position.
Good Health.
Luis
can you walk with them outside or jsut in the office/gym?
katzenjammer 24 Sep 2008
Let me share my experience with the vibram five fingers.
They are very comfortable after the first few days (two first days you feel a few adjusting pains)
I really want to use this always. Can’t wait to get out of work to wear them.
Brings freedom to your toes, get's you "connected to the earth"
In the beginning of this thread I was so curious that I went to their site.
Five minutes later found a shop and got them.
Luckily i have a semi-perfect fit with the size 41 (26cm foot)
Very nice.
I would like to see people share interesting products and so functional.
I was reluctant to spend 90€ on a piece of rubber, but it paid off.
When I take off my normal shoes i notice that the fingers are all joined and almost overlapping.
When i take off the "five fingers" the fingers are straight and individually spaced in a more natural position.
Good Health.
Luis
can you walk with them outside or jsut in the office/gym?
You absolutely can walk in them anywhere - outside, inside; you can even walk on water Seriously, these things are awesome.
xispes 25 Sep 2008
In the beach i dont like, because of the sand. I guess other places with gravel and such could be bothersome.
also mud.
They make other models for such extreme enviroments
nushu 26 Sep 2008
Places i don't/can't use the five fingers
In the beach i dont like, because of the sand. I guess other places with gravel and such could be bothersome.
also mud.
They make other models for such extreme enviroments
I have the KSO (keep stuff out) model, this is more of an enclosed style and offers good protection against debris getting in. The top is a breathable synthetic mesh.
kismet 10 Nov 2008
I am disappointed, now that I have read the paper (it's much rather an editorial) by Rome et al, they're only talking about children & shoes.However, the article is pretty old, so the best summary might be "Rome K, Hancock D, Poratt D. Barefoot running and walking: the pros and cons based on current evidence. N Z Med J. 2008 Apr 18;121(1272):109-11." I'd really want to get hold of the full version.
Another study I'd like to read, maybe someone has the full paper.
Br J Sports Med. 2008 Apr 18. [Epub ahead of print]
Is your prescription of distance running shoes evidence based?
Richards CE, Magin PJ, Callister R.
"OBJECTIVES: To determine whether the current practice of prescribing distance running shoes featuring elevated cushioned heels and pronation control systems tailored to the individual's foot type is evidence based.
...
CONCLUSION: The prescription of this shoe type to distance runners is not evidence based."
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, though. Yet it may hint at something. Is cushoning bad or useless?
Int J Sports Med. 2008 Jun;29(6):512-8. Epub 2007 Nov 16.
Barefoot-shod running differences: shoe or mass effect?
Divert C, Mornieux G, Freychat P, Baly L, Mayer F, Belli A
"The results show that there was a significant mass effect but no shoe effect for oxygen consumption...Net efficiency, which has metabolic and mechanical components, decreased in the shod condition...a decrease of the storage and restitution of elastic energy capacity which could explain the lower net efficiency reported in shod running."
I don't see anything good coming out of cushioning, but I don't have access to those studies so I really can't tell. Still I can't answer if going barefoot is good for injury prevention, strengthening, prehab/rehab or sports performance (disregarding the mass effect).