47 replies to this topic

[bgwowk]

For example, Francis Bacon, the great philosopher, believed that if you inhaled the breath of virgins that would make you live longer. Brown Sequard a very famous neurologist, believed that if you injected yourself with a mixture of pig and dog testicles, that would make you live longer.

Reminds me of an article I read years ago about the safety of silicone breast implants that began by saying the first implants were by Japanese prostitutes injecting themselves with liquid silicone stolen from barrels of industrial chemicals unloaded from American ships. You just know that any article with prostitutes, pigs, or dog testicles is going to give a sober scientific account.

[Aegist]

It sounds like you need to convince us that it is worth it to convince you. Current research indicates that convincing you that supplements are worth it has a negative correlation with prolonged lifespans in cancer-prone, diabetic, pain-sensitive mice.

LOL, hardly. If you don't want to, then don't. it was just a request. Only the first few posts actually answered it, and then later someone suggested vitamin D? or something like that.

Reminds me of an article I read years ago about the safety of silicone breast implants that began by saying the first implants were by Japanese prostitutes injecting themselves with liquid silicone stolen from barrels of chemicals unloaded from Amercian ships. You just know that any article with prostitutes, pigs, or dog testicles is going to give a sober scientific account.

Fair objection.
I think his point was that any decision made by extrapolating scientific understanding outwards has a chance of missing drastically. And as several posts in this thread have already indicated, there is very little direct research on humans which can conclusively show what these supplements and nootropics and drugs etc actually do.

I'm not against them, I'm just not ready to part with money over something which is statistically unlikely to matter.

[niner]

For example, Francis Bacon, the great philosopher, believed that if you inhaled the breath of virgins that would make you live longer.

Maybe Bacon was just a horn-dog. "c'mere babe, lemme inhale yer breath. No, closer, closer..." [:o] )

[bgwowk]

Aegist wrote:

Only the first few posts actually answered it, and then later someone suggested vitamin D?

If discussions of specific supplements for specific benefits are off-topic, what exactly are you asking?

Are you asking:

(A) Are ANY supplements worth it?

(B) Are ALL supplements worth it?

Question (B) is intrinsically silly (a fact that seems to escape boneheaded news media). So if (A) is the question, how can it be answered without specifics? I suppose people here could just say, "Yes, I think some supplements are worth it," without specifying the supplement, benefit, or cost. But is that really all you want to know?

And as several posts in this thread have already indicated, there is very little direct research on humans which can conclusively show what these supplements and nootropics and drugs etc actually do.

With all due respect, such a statement is impossible to make or assess without specifying what "these" are. To blanket dismiss any chemical with the misfortune of being labeled a "supplement" as having no cost-justifiable benefit to human health is illogical, especially given the nomenclature overlap between some supplements and actual drugs prescribed in medicine as evidence-based therapies.

Edited by bgwowk, 17 January 2007 - 08:38 AM.

[Aegist]

Specifics are exactly what I was after. The Vitamin D post was part of the good answers, not the bad.

All I wanted with this post was someone to point me in an obvious direction with regards of a supplement or two or three, or however many which are good enough to provide an undisputed benefit which made their cost worthwhile.

I did this, because up until now, I sorta feel like most 'supplement' stuff is just psuedo-science [airquote]snakeoil[/airquote]. And I airquote that because I know there is a qualitative difference between most supplements et al and actual snake oil. As in, a large number of actual research papers. But to sell these supplements to humans on the basis of that research and claim that these supplements will do 'X' thing, just reminds me of stuff like homeopathy. I reckon I could find research which says that patients who undergo homeopathic treatments show improved healing/health/reduced allergies etc.

Again, I know they are qualitatively different, and that is why I am willing to be convinced about any supplement which you care to take the time to recommend....and not in a homeopathy forum asking them about that.

[Athanasios]

Then I will add in green tea to the vitD, fish oil and multi recommendations.

[zoolander]

we need to consider how we define aging. Intrinsic aging or extrinsic aging? Instrinsic aging is in generally out of our control as opposed to extrinsic aging, which we have a great deal of control over. Anti-aging medicine is really a marketing ploy targeted at the aged of course. Essentially anti-aging medicine is nothing but good preventative medicine.

On top of all of this a lot of what we refer to as aging these days in not the result of aging per se but rather the result of disuse and systemic atrophy that eventually results in imbalances and a reduced ability to maintain basic homeostasis.

Will supplements help us minmise the effects of extrinsic aging. Most definately, YES.

Anti-oxidants.
Anti-carcinogenics.
Anti-inflammatory.
Anti-glycating agents.

the list goes on

[bgwowk]

Specifics are exactly what I was after. The Vitamin D post was part of the good answers, not the bad.

All I wanted with this post was someone to point me in an obvious direction with regards of a supplement or two or three, or however many which are good enough to provide an undisputed benefit which made their cost worthwhile.

That makes sense. I'm so used to seeing the entire concept of "supplements" either praised or dumped on (usually the latter), I thought that might be happening here.

If one were to throw up all things currently sold as supplements onto a two dimensional plot of price and likely benefit, they would be all over the place, from the cheap and almost-certainly-good-for-you, to the expensive and worthless. General statements about efficacy, price, or risks of supplements are meaningless.

[eternaltraveler]

ok....now I see where the misunderstanding is. Just for the record, if I were to test the above, which I have with my research, my null hypothesis would be no effect. This is what I have been trying to get across from the word go.

no worries. I guess we were talking past eachother )

[Aegist]

Then I will add in green tea to the vitD, fish oil and multi recommendations.

OK, I drink green tea already (but with sugar and soy milk LOL ), i've started fish oil, and I will be getting multivitamins soon. Haven't looked into the Vitamin D, but I am tempted to get more information about it.

If one were to throw up all things currently sold as supplements onto a two dimensional plot of price and likely benefit, they would be all over the place, from the cheap and almost-certainly-good-for-you, to the expensive and worthless. General statements about efficacy, price, or risks of supplements are meaningless.

The two dimensional plot is exactly what I would like to see So yeah, general statements are useless, its the specifics, the cheap and almost certainly good for you one that I want to know about.

Shane

[psychenaut]

You will all enjoy this article about Dr. Bruce Ames's opinion on taking a multivitamin (a supplement).

"At its essence, the metabolic tune-up is a multivitamin and mineral supplement that provides the nutrients absent in a diet of processed foods." Ames says.

"Inadequate micronutrient intake, Ames believes, affects the mitochondria in much the same way as aging. He has proved in tissue cultures that micronutrient deficiencies can degrade DNA, leading to the production of mutated chromosomes that can cause cancer."

For those of you unfamiliar with Ames, credentials don't come any better.

(Respectful sponsor disclaimer, I sell the following products) There is no doubt that I feel better when using Ortho-Core or Essential Mix Powder (now sucrose free available).

More food for thought: AOR wrote a very nice 18 page pdf on MultiVitamin Formulation.

Pete Hitesman - Owner
Relentless Improvement LLC

[Aegist]

Thanks psychenaut, I'll look into those links

[bgwowk]

Aegist, if your goal is clinical immortality, then wait 10 years for advances in monoclonal antibody technology. Medicine is about to get very interesting, very fast. Until then, any measure we take is a simple delay.

Nothing in medicine is ever fast because unlike electronics, there is no political tolerance for mistakes. As a result, the whole field is bound by ponderous regulation that slows it to a crawl.

Right now it isn't even legal to seek approval for therapies to specifically treat aging. Aging isn't a "disease".

After hearing "just 10 years now" for 30 years, you'll excuse me if I expect to keep hearing it for at least another 30. Somewhere awhile back on Imminst I posted a list of all the books from the 1960s and 1970s that proclaimed the nearness of the biomedical Singularity (called by different names of course). You'll tell me this time it's different, but of course that is what they always say.

[Aegist]

After hearing "just 10 years now" for 30 years, you'll excuse me if I expect to keep hearing it for at least another 30.  Somewhere awhile back on Imminst I posted a list of all the books from the 1960s and 1970s that proclaimed the nearness of the biomedical Singularity (called by different names of course).  You'll tell me this time it's different, but of course that is what they always say.

\
I wouldn't bother. I don't really expect it to be achieved even within my lifetime anymore, but I continue to hope it will and fight for an increase in funding/activity to facilitate faster results.

its all i can do. giving up isn't an option.

But nonetheless, 55 years ago we didn't even know what the genetic material was. We have advanced in leaps and bounds of our understanding in that time. we now have the entire genome sequenced and have succesfully cloned organisms. Sure medical treatments come about slowly, but as long as our knowledge continues to advance unabaited (which is also at risk thanks to relentless bioethicists clouded by millenia old mystical 'morals') then hopefully the key will be found in the next 50 years.

[bgwowk]

Agreed. Let me be clear that I believe it's human factors that make progress slower that it could be. It's difficult to solve a problem that's still barely recognized as a problem.

[doug123]

I've been wanting to live forever since I was early teenager. I've dedicated my life to researching the problem and trying to assist in its solution. My conception of 'immortality' comes down to solving the problem of ageing, not extending our brief lifespan by a few years here and there. But it seems to me like this section of the ImmInst forums is the most active section.

I guess the most obvious reason is because there is a lot to talk about, and it is all modern day real life application (not sci-fi in the future speculative stuff).

Regardless, as someone who has never been interested in supplements, but open minded to the idea and curious to know more, can you 'sell' the idea to me. My biggest problem with supplements at the moment, is that I feel they are too expensive for me, and they aren't beneficial enough, or certain enough in their benefits. Are there any supplements which are well worth their cost? Should I bother?

Dr. Wowk said:

However it appears that a frequent point of contention is that science can be advanced by Internet debates and Wikis rather than labs and journals. I strongly disagree. Internet discussions are fine for discussion of broad basic issues, and recreation, but they are no substitute for the discipline of organizing ideas into complete papers.

There is a reason why many institutions (not just in science) require correspondence in writing, not emails or Internet posts. It's too easy to put forth half-formed ideas and out-of-context information in brief Internet posts. Forums, blogs, and wikis are intrinsically undisciplined media. The barriers between having a thought and publishing the thought are way too low. Even worse, if a Wiki with broad access politically positions itself as an authority on some subject, scientists who really are authorities will have to spend inordinate amounts of time on edit wars rather than getting real work done. This is not how science gets done.

Naturally, I think it would be best to start by taking your concern to your doctor.

If your doctor looks at you with a zonked look: [glasses] [mellow], you might seek to consult with a doctor whose expertise is Integrative Medicine.

There is a CME (Continuing Medical Education) accredited course this weekend in La Jolla, CA where leaders from the field of Integrative Medicine will be focusing on natural supplements.

Definition of CME

CME: Stands for Continuing Medical Education.

CME programs are intended, literally, to continue the medical education of physicians. Doctors are required to earn CME credits to retain their medical licenses. They may do so by taking courses, attending medical conferences where they learn about new developments, or in some cases by reading and taking a test.

More info on the conference and those in attendance:



Click here for the HTML page on this conference or here for the conference invitation .pdf (Acrobat Reader required).

At this annual three-day conference, more than two dozen nationally renowned medical experts present an evidence-based, comprehensive and timely update of natural supplements to physicians, nurses, pharmacists, dietitians, other health care providers and the general public. In addition, attendees are welcome to pre-conference tours of a botanical garden and a local supplement manufacturing site to learn more about dietary supplements from plant to product.

"This conference provides a comprehensive experience for health care providers and others who want to understand nutritional supplements and integrative medicine in a health care setting," says Dr. Mimi Guarneri, conference director and founder and medical director of the Scripps Center for Integrative Medicine. "Our goal in creating this conference is to raise awareness of herbal and natural remedies and enhance the credibility of integrative medicine among our peers."

"Americans assume that herbs and vitamins are safe because they are natural. Yet, there are known drug-herb interactions that can occur, and, for this reason, health care providers need and want to acquire the knowledge and expertise for addressing and managing dietary supplement use with their patients," says Dr. Robert Bonakdar, one of the conference directors and director of pain management, Scripps Center for Integrative Medicine. "The NIH and other institutions continue to fund research on natural supplements in order to ensure public safety. This conference will provide clinicians with evidence-based resources as well as expert opinion on how to discuss, document and manage supplement use with their patients. Clinicians will learn how to talk to patients about the use of supplements and where to find reliable sources."

In addition, this conference hosts a research competition to highlight and acknowledge new research in the area of natural supplements use in three categories; original clinical research, comprehensive review of existing research and student research. Competitors submit 400 word abstracts on their research and compete for cash prizes. A panel of judges evaluates entries based on concept originality, rigor of research and applicability to clinical practice. Top winners are published in the Journal of Complementary and Alternative Medicine.

Up to 17.75 Category 1 continuing medical education credits are available. Accreditation provided by ACCME. To register for the conference, please call 858-587-4404

You might consider attending this conference should you wish to ask specific questions.

Take care.

[bgwowk]

Kamil's point is excellent. Rather than trying to cover all the bases, it might be best if we pointed you toward trusted sources that you could explore to any desired depth. I like LEF myself, but that's a biased opinion.

[albedo]

I have found this article which I do not have access to. I wonder if you do, can have a look and would recommend it. I thought to post in this old thread rather than starting a new one. Please let me know if there is better place:

 

A to zinc: What supplements are worth taking?

http://ask.lef.org/1...re-worth-taking

Edited by albedo, 29 August 2014 - 01:11 PM.