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Ageless Animals

begin at the beginning?

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17 replies to this topic

#1 Aegist

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 03:33 AM


I have mentally touched on this field many times in the past but never taken the time to look into it. Conceptually the fact that some animals live for days, while others live for decades has made me certain that longevity could be "easily" influenced through biological manipulations. The fact that a Mouse is 'closely' related to humans, yet lives for 3 years, and humans live for 80 implies to me that mice should be able to easily be extended out to 80 or so years if we only knew the secret to human longevity.

And so similarly, of course, when I look at other species which are supposed to live for several hundred years (like some turtles and some fish) I think that ideally we would be able to study them and find their secret, and apply it to ourselves somehow.

Anyway, thanks to olarsson making a request for a paper on this topic in the full member section, I managed to find this site:
http://www.agelessan...s.org/index.htm which seems to have some interesting information on it.

I have only just started looking through it, but thought someone else might be interested in it too, and maybe something worth discussing will come up.

#2 maestro949

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 07:10 AM

Many of the gerontology texts dedicate quite a bit of space to the comparative biology of aging. João Pedro de Magalhães' has compiled much data in this area and kindly published it on his website. From what I gather, the research reveals that each species has a fairly specific rate of aging which points to a genetic element in regards to senescence, particularly in the regulatory genes that control gene expression and repair.

With the decreasing cost of DNA sequencing and arrays for studying gene expression we should be able to put together a fairly comprehensive database of genes and expression that are directly and indirectly involved in the aging process in the coming years. At a minimum, this should be useful for meta-analysis.

Also of interest is the University of Southern California's Gene Aging Nexus.

#3 lucid

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 10:17 AM

Many species develop rapid senescence after their first round of mating: salmon, many insects including mayflies, cuddlefish, (its a long list). This is caused by the animal equivalent of the human hormone: cortisol, which is released during the 'stress of mating'. The evolutionary purpose of this activity is generally thought to have developed to enrich the environment of their offspring. This can also be thought to be selected where as it decreases specific predator populations.

What is more interesting is animals that have almost flat %chance of dying each year curve (its called a grontz curve or something that I can't spell right now). At anyrate, the interesting thing is that the species that don't stop growing, don't ever get 'old' they just get bigger. Giant squid are thought to be in this group, it is growth that cleanses the soma of genetic defects.

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#4 Lazarus Long

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 10:49 AM

As far as mammals go we need to take a closer look at cetaceans. While it is only anecdotal, a recent minke whale was taken with a one hundred year old harpoon tip still embedded in his blubber. He has not only survived at least 130 years but done so with a significant injury and when taken was in prime condition and healthy.

What I found interesting reading the accounts was that there is no particularly accurate way of determining the age of very large cetaceans and like some reptiles, squids, and birds (dinosaurs) may simply continue to grow larger until size itself reduces their ability to feed.

#5 Lazarus Long

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 10:54 AM

BTW on the anecdotal meme front just as I was writing the above post a radio article came on NPR's morning show discussing the same topic.

Also on the list don't forget the hydra and lobsters.

#6 Lazarus Long

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 11:19 AM

Another consideration is that when animals do not age it does not mean they are invulnerable to disease, toxins, environmental hazards, changes in predation or adaptive pressure.

For example the idea of growing so large that you can no longer feed on the original food source is a threat that can be overcome by finding a new food source but also you might find that while you weren't food for a specific predator before the transition to a larger state has made you a new competitor for that food source and as such a target for competition or prey with a new class of predators.

Also a while ago when we were discussing this subject the issue of telomers and mtDNA in alligators and turtles arose because they do not appear to adhere to a Hayflick limit or succumb to irreversible mutations.

On the issue of mutation, this also is why lobsters and a few in that class of arthropods (like roaches) can endure significantly higher radiation exposure and recover and also why they do not appear to suffer from most cancers.

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 11:48 AM

Umm I wonder if we'll start growing giantic once we bypass the hayflick limit..
Probably not, but funny idea.

#8 Lazarus Long

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 11:53 AM

There is an argument that once the ability of the body to repair tissues can be made infinitum that continuous *slower* growth becomes the outlet of that process. Think of a continuously rising but flattening curve for increased size.

BTW,I thought of this too and had visions of 1950's B movies like "The Attack of the 50 Foot Woman." :))

There is also an argument that some form of growth is inevitable and we see this in a correlation between the evolution of life span and human size, we also see it a problem of obesity perhaps that is genetically driven.

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 12:05 PM

Well must be some way to avoid that.. will not be funny if we'll start growing way out of size.

#10 JonesGuy

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 01:15 PM

I think that there's a lot of synergy available here. I know a fellow who's thinking about starting a Masters in Marine Biology. This meant that as soon as I found out about the broad diversity of lifespans in sea anenomes, I pointed it out to him. Hopefully, it will put a bug in his ear as a topic to investigate.

#11 Michael

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 08:03 PM

All:


Thou hast no right but to do thy Will.

BTW on the anecdotal meme front just as I was writing the above post a radio article came on NPR's morning show discussing the same topic.

Long Live the Lobster: Forever Young?
VERY fun, tho' the reporter plays up his own stupidity/curiosity a bit much ...

He spends too much time on the fact that (to pun on the Energizer bunny) "they keep growing ... and growing ..."; OTOH, he also repeatedly illustrates the lack of phenotypic aging (no loss of energy, no loss of reproductive function, etc). It's good to get the idea (I won't abuse "meme") out into the public mind that organisms that have decoupled chronological from (the horrors of) biological aging ...

Love is the law, love under will.

-Michael

#12 marqueemoon

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 05:39 PM

There is an argument that once the ability of the body to repair tissues can be made infinitum that continuous *slower* growth becomes the outlet of that process.  Think of a continuously rising but flattening curve for increased size.


Interesting since I've also read the opposite -- that growth is positively correlated with senescence. There's the caloric restriction argument that our cells repair themselves better when they channel their resources into maintenance as opposed to growth and reproduction. I've also heard speculation that if our growth were stunted before puberty we would age at a slower rate. What do you make of this apparent contradiction? Also why would it be necessary to grow in order to rejuvenate existing cells?

#13 Lazarus Long

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 07:23 PM

Interesting since I've also read the opposite -- that growth is positively correlated with senescence.


I have too but in humans this is associated with specific minimalization of the adverse effects of things like onset of puberty, cellular oxidation and obesity. There are some correlations with organ sizes inappropriate to body size as well, specifically hearts too large or small for the demand of the body but this is all somewhat qualitatively different from the examples being raised with respect to ageless animals.

In the animal kingdom there is a funny dichotomy with respect to lifespan and the very smallest (some bacteria) and the very largest species are the longest lived but with respect to mammals the smaller they are, the shorter they tend to live; mice and other rodents on one extreme and whales, humans and elephants on the other and we are arguably not quite on that list because we are extending our lifespans outside a natural selection environment.

With respect to other phyla the reason is simpler, sometimes their cells can be infinitely replaced in some cases like the hydra and so as they live longer and consume more they grow. In the case of the lobsters and many arthropods they have exoskeletons and molt, so as long as they have sufficient food they continue to outgrow their skin and get larger.

In the case of vertebrates like alligators, crocs and turtles they too seem to not suffer from a Hayflick limit on cell reproduction or mtDNA oxidation so instead of getting cancer they just get larger at a stable rate. If we could adapt their methods the same might occur to us then.

BTW there are birds that live over a century and like whales they are warm blooded vertebrates but I think we should be looking at cetaceans for the best clues to extending our own life spans but maybe it is as simple as the tonnes of Omega 3 Fish oil they consume in krill, though I doubt anything is that simple.

#14 cyborgdreamer

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Posted 28 June 2007 - 06:34 AM

I've heard that vertebrate life spans tend to be inversely proportional to their metabolism speeds. So, a mouse, a tortoise, and an early human would go through the same number of heart beats in a lifetime. Birds are an exception, though; they live a lot longer.

#15 MindSparks

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Posted 03 March 2011 - 04:20 AM

http://www.physorg.c...lues-aging.html

Original Source: http://www.insidesci...mals-aging-well

Abstract: Ageless animals are providing scientists multiple clues and methods as to how we can reverse to process of aging. Certain terns, tortoises, crocodiles, and worms are all contributing to an understanding of how aging can be paused and hopefully one day we can take on these biological abilities. The article discusses some of the theories of aging that are current along with the direction in which the science of gerontology and anti-aging is going.


Citations for Article:

http://www.cdc.gov/m...ml/mm5842a7.htm
http://www.demogr.mp...esearchplan.htm
http://www.cell.com/...t/S0169-5347(11)00016-4
http://physiologyonl...24-85c4fb159b33
http://stm.sciencema...70ra13.abstract
http://www.npr.org/2...r-groups-health

Edited by MindSparks, 04 March 2011 - 12:58 AM.


#16 eighthman

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 12:50 AM

Yeah, I know. Some wiseguy pops up on this forum and declares that He Knows The Cause of Aging. Trying to determine the cause of aging seems like the Hindu parable of blind men describing an elephant. I just hope I'm not the last blind guy who bends down and observes, "An elephant is soft and mushy".

It seems to me we need to begin at the correct point - and that concerns examining animals that seem to lack aging - like some tortoises, whales, rockfish, clams and lobsters. Their existence is now well established (see ageless animals. org) even using radiodating methods to confirm their ages.

How do they avoid aging? Because they have adapted to anoxia and developed extremely precise protein maintenance by reducing mtROS to a minimum. Antioxidants are after the fact and that's why they don't do much.

see: http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2952077/

This finally explains the mystery, the common bond of avoiding protein oxidation and tightly managing oxygen - because these creatures have to !
You can read about rockfish protein results on the ageless animal site.

Please think about two things here: first, you could have two rockfish on a plate - one species died at 12 but another was caught and found to be 200+yrs old. They look alike, live in similar conditions, yet there is some small, subtle difference between them - that makes all the difference.

Second, whales are mammals and some of them don't seem to age. A mammal can live without aging. It is possible.

That's the deal: Nature has done it and rather than unfocused theories, these animals can teach us.

OK, now you can throw that mushy elephant stuff at me............

#17 Mind

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 11:12 PM

Don't worry eigthman. People here are generally happy to discuss new theories, even "off-the-wall" theories. It helps when there is some scientific data or logical reasoning to back it up, which in the case of ageless animals - there is.

#18 Mind

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 07:47 PM

Another to add to the list of ageless animals? Brunnich's Guillemot

The guillemots – which look similar to penguins but can fly – have the highest flight costs of any bird and expend substantial energy for diving. Their high metabolisms and frequent dives should produce oxidative stress, causing the birds to deteriorate as they age. But, the researchers discovered that the birds stay fit and active as they grow older, maintaining their flying, diving, and foraging abilities.

Read more at: http://phys.org/news...s-hard.html#jCp






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