14 replies to this topic

[marcopolo]

I was reading another forum about this and one guy had an interesting argument against it. Much has been said in this and other forums about the idea of either copying, making a "backup" of someone or uploading their mind as Ray Kurzweil has suggested. However, how practical would it be to copy a dynamic process and keep the copy running where the original had left off? I mean, your brain and body are a continuum of electrochemical processes that are ongoing, so an apt analogy would be to copy a computer program as it is running, or copy an airplane flying along at hundreds of knots with its engines running and to reproduce an exact copy in that state, but with no acceleration at all? How difficult would that be? I mean, can you copy a dynamic system without copying everything that led up to it being in that dynamic in the first place? This would also apply to cryonics, because that would require reconstructing a body and restarting it and the brain from a frozen static state. Has anyone really given these problems consideration? Are there ways around this problem of copying, or restarting/thawing a dynamic system and get the copy running before it degrades?

[forever freedom]

Ok, i'm far from an expert on the subject, but i'm giving my 2 cents.


I think that once scientists understand the brain better, they will be able to find patterns that enable static parts/cells/electrochemicals of the brain and match these static things with their "in dynamic proccess" counterparts.

(again, i might have absolutely no idea of what i'm talking about)

[marcopolo]

interesting this didn't get much of a response, and I don't understand alot of it either. I tend to think that it is more of a technical problem but can be done in principle. Not sure either though.

[Cyberbrain]

it could possible continue to copy if it was ran in a simulation

[bgwowk]

What's the problem with restarting something from a static state? It happens in medicine all the time. The functional state of any brain will be static after only 30 seconds of cardiac arrest.

If even it weren't already demonstrated in medicine, I don't see why this should be a problem.

[bob_d]

the question is how consciousness and brain are linked. i'm not sure whether consciousness itself is the (dynamic) process of information processing in the brain or whether it is something is a property of the physical being of the brain which is only "filled up" with the information the brain processes. if it is the latter one i believe, the "flow of information" is what keeps the consciousness from falling apart if some of the brains important parts are taken away(like through metabolism). so cryonics would work then.

If even it weren't already demonstrated in medicine, I don't see why this should be a problem.

but we don't know if the consciousness of person that came back is the same. we can only judge its content.

[JonesGuy]

The dynamic process of the brain is sensory input. I know it seems like we're more than just sensory input (you can think in a sensory deprivation tank), but there's no real good reason to think that

Many latent portions of your consciousness are 'offline' when you're not thinking about them (though they're certainly alive and functioning). There's no reason why they can't be completely off, if you're not using them.

[Luna]

consciousness dosen't exist.. it's an illusion.

Frogs go to cryonics and out all the time in nature.

[Luna]

I think short-beaked echidna do it too..

[bob_d]

consciousness dosen't exist.. it's an illusion.

you mean like your a zombie [huh]

[Matt]

I'm the only conscious person in the universe as far as I'm concerned. You're all just autonomous biological machines [lol]

Anyway, I think the mind uploading is not really a problem. It's about looking at the fact that we're always changing as people, with new experiences and memories, these make up who we are as people. Here is my explanation (which I just got from another thread I posted it in) of how we will get around the mind uploading thing


I don't think it will be the kind of upload to machine that some people may be thinking about. My take on all this will be a slow transition from biological to artificial over time by 'replacing' and/or augmenting the brain. In this scenario our consciousness would never cease, and eventually our personality, old memories/new memories will be transferred or built up onto non biological formats and we'll continue to live. Initially with both biological and artificial with eventually going to totally non biological. So as new memories are formed your personality and 'you' are being recorded onto these computer chips.

I don't think it would be, upload to computer, and then if I die it doesn't matter because I continue on that computer. But we all know this is not the case, the copy will just be a copy. It might not matter to others as I, or the copy rather, will basically seem like me to my friends, but i'll be dead eventually. Transferring consciousness by uploading to another format? No I don't think so, I think it will be a slow transition over time by augmentation of our brain. It's very much like a back up system, where if certain parts of our brain start to fail, all our memories from the point we had the implants will store our every thought, and our new and old memories we think about and forget about the ones we don;t think about because they will no longer be relevant to and might not shape your personality at that given time.

This in my opinion gets passed the whole issue over whether a copy is me... a copy isn't you (on that computer or whatever). I don't believe we can cut and paste consciousness, but I believe we can over time become non biological through the above method.


Your thoughts?

[Luna]

Let's remember all of your atoms are changed in every about 7 years..
98% per year actually.. the other 2% seems to take 7.. not sure maybe someone can find info about it.

[JonesGuy]

It's more than that.

We have neurons living and dying in our brains, yet we're not really aware of it.
(There aren't that many, but they're swapping around. One paper from Sweden thinks that there might be complete turnover in some brain regions)

[FunkOdyssey]

My lay opinion is that mind "uploading" or copying to another substrate is more akin to creating a clone of yourself than actually maintaining your own existence. I believe there is some key element in our current brains that provides continuity of identity/existence, despite momentary interruptions like sleep, coma, short periods of death, and despite constant remodeling of structure. I think it is this intangible element (intangible only because of our lack of understanding) that would not survive the transition to another medium and would spell the end of "our" existence and the beginning of a new life that just happens to start off with our memories and knowledge.

So I like the chances of surviving cryonic preservation better than any mind uploading scheme.

[Luna]

Well the fact that some animals do it in nature with no human help makes feel better about cryonics, don't you?