26 replies to this topic

[Cyberbrain]

[forever freedom]

I know that



When i was younger and had less knowledge i thought that i was born during the technological and cultural apex of our civilization. How damn wrong i were. I wish i was born some 500 years from now.

[AdamSummerfield]

Yes Kaku has expressed that this century is likely to be the most important in human history, which is the basis of the amount of work I plan on putting in for biology.
Kostas I know you're studying physics but in what precise area do you plan on working in? Sam what's your profession interest?

[forever freedom]

Sam what's your profession interest?

Mine is a bit different from the conventional in the forums... i study business management and plan on having a business or seizing any other opportunities to get as rich as possible. Once rich, i'm sure i'll be able to contribute well to the anti aging cause.

[Cyberbrain]

Kostas I know you're studying physics but in what precise area do you plan on working in? Sam what's your profession interest?

Actually, right now I am doing a Bachelor of Science in Electrical Engineering and a Bachelor of Arts in Computer Science and a minor in business. You were probably thinking of Joesph who is doing a double major in Physics and Computer Science.

My main interests are to work in Artificial Intelligence, the Singularity, Bioinformatics, Cybernetics, Microelectronics, and so forth. I'm very interested as well in cybernetic immortality.

But the most important thing that anyone of us can do is to make lots of money so as to finance different projects from curing aging (SENS) to rejuvenation, and so forth.

[Cyberbrain]

Mine is a bit different from the conventional in the forums ... i study business management and plan on having a business or seizing any other opportunities to get as rich as possible. Once rich, i'm sure i'll be able to contribute well to the anti aging cause.

I had a similar interest in becoming a Financial Engineer in order to invest in the Stock Market. Looking at Call and Put options ... there is a lot of money to be made in the Market, it's like a gold mine!

[eternaltraveler]

we're about a .7 on the Kardashev scale

Edited by elrond, 23 April 2008 - 08:22 PM.

[modelcadet]

Mine is a bit different from the conventional in the forums ... i study business management and plan on having a business or seizing any other opportunities to get as rich as possible. Once rich, i'm sure i'll be able to contribute well to the anti aging cause.

I had a similar interest in becoming a Financial Engineer in order to invest in the Stock Market. Looking at Call and Put options ... there is a lot of money to be made in the Market, it's like a gold mine!

I'll see your Financial Engineering and raise you a Random Walk. Looking at the Efficient Market Hypothesis ... there are a lot of fools to be made in the Market, it's like a gold mine with level 27 scorpions randomly spawning and killing both the noobs and the leveling bots.

Edited by modelcadet, 22 April 2008 - 08:58 PM.

[Cyberbrain]

Mine is a bit different from the conventional in the forums ... i study business management and plan on having a business or seizing any other opportunities to get as rich as possible. Once rich, i'm sure i'll be able to contribute well to the anti aging cause.

I had a similar interest in becoming a Financial Engineer in order to invest in the Stock Market. Looking at Call and Put options ... there is a lot of money to be made in the Market, it's like a gold mine!

I'll see your Financial Engineering and raise you a Random Walk. Looking at the Efficient Market Hypothesis ... there are a lot of fools to be made in the Market, it's like a gold mine with level 27 scorpions randomly spawning and killing both the noobs and the leveling bots.

Which is exactly why I'm majoring in EE and CS so as to understand the companies I'm trading with, and which is why its also important to do risk assessments using Matlab or something. There are a lot of fools out there who suck at trading, and it would be even more foolish to watch shows like Mad Money. When Google reported their earnings a couple days ago, a well picked option could have increased by whooping 600%, it's best to trade only a couple times a year, specifically when a company is going to release their earnings like Apple who is releasing their earnings tomorrow Wednesday.

Edited by Kostas, 22 April 2008 - 10:05 PM.

[JonesGuy]

The problem with planning to "donate later, when you're rich" is that that horizon always seems to be in the future. The trick is to donate what you can, when you can. Plus, that way the money gets working sooner than later.

[forever freedom]

The problem with planning to "donate later, when you're rich" is that that horizon always seems to be in the future. The trick is to donate what you can, when you can. Plus, that way the money gets working sooner than later.

It depends on the person. I don't think i'll have this problem as i'm completely sure that i'll start donating a bit more down the road.

[Cyberbrain]

According to the video:

Type 0 = us right now
Type 1 = us in 100 years from now (assuming we survive the transition)
Type 2 = the Federation from Star Trek
Type 3 = the Empire from Star Wars

My hypothetical ramblings (please don't criticize too much ):

Type 4 = the "ancients" from Stargate
Type 5 = God
Type 6 = Beyond God / The makers of God

Type 4: I believe are multi dimensional beings existing in and out of the metaverse (from string theory is the embodiment of infinite universes, I think). They have limited power in controlling/utilizing a single universe.
Type 5: I believe are multi dimensional beings existing in the metaverse. They have the power to create, control and fully utilize multiple universes. According to the bible, this is were God stands.
Type 6: I believe are ultra multi dimensional beings who can control a significant portion of the metaverse. They have infinite capacity, knowledge and power.

*If the term metaverse doesn't exist, I'm just using it to describe the embodiment of infinite universes from string theory. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know.

[nefastor]

Michio Kaku... the man just loves the camera

I see him on so many documentaries (starting with The Universe series) I gotta wonder when he finds time to do actual science

Just kidding, I like the guy. He and Neil Degrasse Tyson should be given Spandex outfits and the super-ability to transmogrify boring science books into Discovery Channel videos and military funding into science funding

Anyway... Kostas, I certainly hope there's nothing like your types 5 and 6. Type 4 I think we could live with, but I don't like the idea of beings who could wipe our universe out of existence without even knowing we're here (or caring about it).

The problem is, I think it's possible types 5 and 6 might exist someday (if not already) because of a "theory" of mine : I think that any observable phenomenon can be artificially recreated given a sufficient understanding of the physics involved. For instance, we figured stars run on thermonuclear fusion, and we replicated that mecanism (first in bombs, now in controlled manner inside tokamaks and fusors).

By the same token, we can observe gravity (well d'uh ) so eventually we'll be able to create artificial gravity and, from there, reshape galaxies and eliminate the odd black-hole.

Suppose we someday manage to prove (and measure) things like "the fabric of space and time" or "alternate universes", then these things too will fall under our control.

In fact, I know people who one-up my little theory and believe anything we can THINK of can be made real, given a sufficient understanding of the physics involved.

Supposing that's true, then we (or another species) might someday get all the way to level 6, perhaps even above that. I sure hope any species that makes it that far will have forgotten concepts like violence, or we're all screwed

Nefastor

[eternaltraveler]

According to the video:

Type 0 = us right now
Type 1 = us in 100 years from now (assuming we survive the transition)
Type 2 = the Federation from Star Trek
Type 3 = the Empire from Star Wars

the empire from star wars is nothing like a type 3 on the Kardashev scale, nor is the federation from star trek anything like a type 2.

It's not a matter of simply colonizing the galaxy to be a type 3. It's a matter of using the entire energy output of an entire galaxy. I'm not aware of anything in popular fiction that would come close to a type 3.

A type one civilization will utilize on the order of 1.74 x 10^17 watts(the total solar energy reaching the earth), a type two will utilize 3.83×10^26 watts (total solar energy output), and a type 3 will utilize on the order of 100 billion times that (~4x10^37 watts).

Edited by elrond, 23 April 2008 - 08:24 PM.

[eternaltraveler]

we're about a .7 on the Kardashev scale

actually, instead of just going with what Carl Sagan said (and is in the wikipedia entry), doing the actual math we still need to use about 2000 times more energy to be a type 1 (and this figure even assumes we use 100% of the earth's biomass, which we don't).

Still. there is no reason we can't be a type 1 in 100 years.

Edited by elrond, 23 April 2008 - 08:25 PM.

[Cyberbrain]

Well its possible that higher level beings can exist on other dimensions of time:

Edited by Kostas, 24 April 2008 - 04:15 PM.

[JonesGuy]

If types III, IV and up exist, then I think that it's wise to reach that level as fast as possible. If for no other reason that to not be at the whim of some culture which outstrips our own in unimaginable ways.

[Luna]

we're about a .7 on the Kardashev scale

actually, instead of just going with what Carl Sagan said (and is in the wikipedia entry), doing the actual math we still need to use about 2000 times more energy to be a type 1 (and this figure even assumes we use 100% of the earth's biomass, which we don't).

Still. there is no reason we can't be a type 1 in 100 years.

It's simple! all it requires is an infinite or fully replished source of energy to use for the community and science, bingo! Type I!

[nefastor]

Kostas : most interesting video ! Thanks for sharing !

Seriously, guys, regarding the Kardashev Scale, I kinda have my doubts as to how realistic it is. Think about it : as technology progresses, we use less and less energy to do a given task. Cars' gas mileage improves, and integrated circuits use less "power per operation" (i.e. W/MIPS) every year. And most of the time this isn't even on purpose : for chips, processing power has just increased faster than power drain, due to the miniaturization requirements.

So I have to wonder, could this trend stop ? And if it doesn't, then we may be an intergalactic civilisation before we get to type 2 (I'd define an intergalactic civilisation as several hundred Earth-like planets scattered across multiple galaxies and in contact with each other).

Conversely, I have to wonder what a type 3 civilisation would do with all the energy it consumes. Certainly not power their holo-television sets, or their aero-cars.

A nuclear aircraft carrier uses on the order of half a gigawatt at maximum speed, that's 0.5 x 10^9 Watts : a type 3 civilisation would need to have a population of at least 8 x 10^28, each with its own Nimitz-class carrier. That's 80 billion billion billion people and as many carriers (or spaceships or whatever)

I don't know... but it seems such a civilization doesn't exist yet, or we'd have met them already. The population of a billion billion planets, with the ability to fuel itself on a whole galaxy... hell it doesn't even sound environmentally friendly

Obviously I'm just pulling numbers out of my ass, here. For all we know, the power of a whole galaxy might be what's required to allow a single Jumbo Jet-sized spaceship to go from A to B faster than light. That being said, if we can already detect and analyze the atmosphere on planets orbiting another star, it's hard to believe we wouldn't see the effects of a type 3 civilization.

As for us, I sort of hope we never get to the point where we need to feed on whole galaxies to survive. We've already done a lot of harm to our own species and planet and we're not even type 1 : imagine a George W Bush ruling a type 3 civilization.

Nefastor

[JonesGuy]

How about we get 80 billion people: each with a billion billion aircraft carriers!

[nefastor]

How about we get 80 billion people: each with a billion billion aircraft carriers!

Stop pretending, QJones, we know you're Bush in disguise juuuuusssst kiddin'

Seriously, though, keep it in mind : the Kardashev Scale is not just totally arbitrary, it's just a gross oversimplification that has no real meaning. There are many, many meaningful ways to classify civilizations that have nothing to do with energy : since we're at Imminst, I would say a significant scale for us would be the "lifespan" scale.

Introducing the Roch Scale (Roch is my real-life name) :
Type 0 civilization : individuals age and eventually die from it. They can also die of some illnesses.
Type 1 civilization : individuals have infinite lifespans, i.e. aging and illness can no longer kill them, but bullets and car crashes still can.
Type 2 civilization : individuals are unkillable, i.e. they are impervious to any form of bodily harm short of being converted to subatomic particles (say by a nuke or a dive into the sun).
Type 3 civilization : individuals are immortal, i.e. they are impervious to any conceivable form of bodily harm. They will die when the universe dies. (example : maybe the 2001 monoliths)
Type 4 civilization : Type 3 civilization capable of surviving the end of the universe

Energy use is such an unreliable metric. If you look at the variations of energy use per person over the last thousand years, it's gone through highs and lows, and it's certain it'll always be that way. Every time we create a new technology, we later find ways to optimize it which tend to result in reduced consumption. Plus, we also don't know how many people will exist in the future : remember this planet has known plagues that have eliminated a huge chunk of mankind, we also got close to global nuclear war and that could happen again... who's to say we'll grow to billions of billions of billion people ? Even if we do, who's to say we won't be environmentalists in the future ?

Beyond wars and plagues, you also have to realize that immortality means we'll live forever AS OUR RELATIVES WILL. I wouldn't be surprised if many people don't like the idea of starting a family they'll have to live with forever, especially since each family may grow to fill a whole planet eventually. This could result in a population that doesn't increase much, even over millions of years.

My point is, the Kardashev Scale is only good for getting a few "Wow"s out of a television audience, when you think about it seriously, it has no other value. While it SEEMS it does, it actually tells you nothing about technological advancement, and it leaves aside all social parameters starting with the size of your civilization. It's like making a scale of computer technology where Type 3 is a planet-sized computer, and forgetting that it may never happen, because miniaturization means there'll never be a need for something that large.

Sure, if we were still using vacuum tubes and relays, my PC would be as large as a continent or two... but it could never have happened. See what I mean ? the thinking behind the Kardashev Scale has more holes in it than a dozen episodes of Star Trek.

Nefastor

[eternaltraveler]

My point is, the Kardashev Scale is only good for getting a few "Wow"s out of a television audience, when you think about it seriously, it has no other value. While it SEEMS it does, it actually tells you nothing about technological advancement, and it leaves aside all social parameters starting with the size of your civilization. It's like making a scale of computer technology where Type 3 is a planet-sized computer, and forgetting that it may never happen, because miniaturization means there'll never be a need for something that large.

Sure, if we were still using vacuum tubes and relays, my PC would be as large as a continent or two... but it could never have happened. See what I mean ? the thinking behind the Kardashev Scale has more holes in it than a dozen episodes of Star Trek.

The point of the Kardashev scale is not to tell you about the level of technology (though there will certainly be some level of correlation), the purpose is to define how easily such a civilization would be detected with a SETI type program. There are no Kardashev 2 or 3 civilizations visible within at least a very great distance from us (the kinds of mega scale engineering involved in a type 3, and to a lesser extent, a type 2, would be visible from the other side of the visible universe). Thus the absence of such evidence adds much to the fermi paradox (which originally was limited to why we can't see evidence of anyone else in our own galaxy).

Edited by elrond, 25 April 2008 - 06:04 PM.

[Luna]

Why would Type II or type III even have mega size engineering?
I mean think about it, the smaller the better, they can for all we know be on ONE solar system, transformed them into havens, not using solar or material energy but quantum physics energy like zero point energy or maybe full replishable energy from water and hydrogen cycle!

Most chances they are just living their life.

[nefastor]

Winterbreeze and I are on the same side : the Kardashev Scale goes against what you'd expect from advanced civilizations in term of their energy use. And when I say this scale is meaningless, it's because it doesn't even allow us to tell how noticeable a civilization would be.

Look at it like this : type 3 uses the power of a galaxy, but how ?

- If it's all focused in one place (say their home galaxy) and that place is 10 billion light years away, we'll never gonna see it in time to do anything about it.

- If the energy use is spread across millions of worlds, in thousands of galaxies, so that it's likely one is going to be close enough to Earth for timely detection... then we're talking about a civilization that can do intergalactic travel. That means ships, engineering and therefore optimization of power consumption and efficiency (i.e. energy lost on things other than movement, and which could be noticed, like infrared).

Then there's an aspects not covered by most theories on this subject : stealth. If we assume there can exist a type 3 civilization out there, with intergalactic travel capability, then we must also assume there could be more than one such civilization, and that they may not like each other. Enough to kill each other. Considering what we already know about making stealth planes, it would probably be very easy for a type 3 civilization to make a ship that can't be detected unless you're close enough to see it. That means no emissions, and no reflection of radio waves. And then it could be painted black as camouflage. As for weaponry, if you can go faster than light, then you don't need guns : just a few ball-bearings thrown out the porthole at 99.9% c would beat all the nukes in the world and we'd be none the wiser.

Finally, there's my own theory : there may be civilizations out there who are advanced enough to have found us, but they are scared shitless of people who would nail their own god to a cross and nuke their only biosphere. It could very well be that we're quarantined until such a time we grow up... or become a problem worthy of getting rid of. Hell, for all we know, Jesus really existed and he was an alien diplomat. Oh snap !

Nefastor

[Luna]

Or they are just living in one or serveral worlds, using their technology to transform them to utopia and live there forever.
And there is also a theory many people here seem to like and say it on themselves only, computer uploading and virtual reality.
Maybe they are just mostly living in a virtual world.

[nefastor]

Maybe they are just mostly living in a virtual world.

In that same vein, I was thinking this :

Maybe one of the flaws of the Kardashev Scale is that between types 2 and 3, a civilization would be able to harness sufficient power to access alternate universes at will. So even if my hypothetical "80 billion billion billion people with their personal nuclear aircraft carrier" existed, it may be that each and every single of these people chooses to live in a separate universe, and ours is the least popular vacation spot.

Maybe a civilization can't reach type 3 without inherently discovering how to access other dimensions.

Or maybe there's some sort of critical mass, a point where a civilization can harness so much energy it will cause its demise. Kinda like nuclear power could easily have caused our own end already.

After all there's no reason to believe an alien civilization can't be stupider than us (although they'd probably hurt their backs trying to reach that low )

Nefastor

[johnf]

I'm pretty certain that you'd need to be on your way to type 2 to become type 1. Complete control over and utilization of the entire planet's energy? You control & use the molten iron core and all the way up to the geomagnetosphere & Van Allen belts.

Nothing I've seen in fiction resembles this. I guess fiction writers go into space empires as a better way for a civilization to advance, than going to far with learning about individual planets.
Certainly nothing is like type 2 or 3 even. Not even Asimov's Empire & Foundation.
The originators of Niven's "outsiders" in Benford & Martin's "A Darker Geometry" I suppose have harnessed much of a universe's energy -in desperation they poke windows into our universe and generate quasars here as vents for the increasing heat of their own "Big Crunch" collapsing universe, so I guess they couldn't be said to have complete control over their home universe.
Dyson has speculated on this universal complete control, in his "Time without End" article...