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Overstimulation from Choline enhancing supplements


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#1 Chiggy

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Posted 09 June 2008 - 07:47 PM


Hello,

I seem to be very sensitive to all supplements that enhance Choline or the related system in any way.

Choline, supplemental B Vitamins, Centrophenoxine, ALCAR all seem to make me irritable and feel crappy, although I seem to be a little more productive.

Overstimulation happens with even very small doses of the above.

I am concerned since most of the above are important for anti aging, and currently i am avoiding them all.

Any ideas what's causing this ?

Thanks,

Chiggy.

Edited by Chiggy, 09 June 2008 - 07:55 PM.


#2 ajnast4r

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Posted 09 June 2008 - 11:31 PM

Any ideas what's causing this ?



biochemical individuality

im the same way.. more choline = worse mood

its not a big deal, ive never seen any solid evidence than anything youve mentioned is important for antiaging in humans.

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#3 Chiggy

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 12:18 AM

Thanks, Glad to hear I am not alone.

Do you think it means we have naturally high levels already and the extra is pushing us over the edge and causing negative effects ?

What do you think this means for glycation and AGE's, does this mean glycation is maybe reduced more than the average person due to this or no change ?

Edited by Chiggy, 10 June 2008 - 12:19 AM.


#4 ajnast4r

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 12:49 AM

Do you think it means we have naturally high levels already and the extra is pushing us over the edge and causing negative effects ?


thats exactly what i think... as far as glycation goes, i couldnt say.

#5 zoolander

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 01:14 AM

genes express themselves in different ways in different people. This is where personal genome service will come in handed. As molecular biology advances we will understand more about how we work. This won't just be information that the medical researchers will use. It will be information that we can all use to make informed choices about how to optimise our health.

#6 stephen_b

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 01:17 AM

I don't know if it's true or not, but I wonder if low serotonin might be the cause of your reaction to choline supplementation.

For example, taking phenylalanine before I had supplemented tryptophan for a couple of months made me very moody. Phenylalanine doesn't do the same thing now; it just gives me a nice energy boost, as does citicoline.

Stephen

#7 Chiggy

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 04:21 AM

"genes express themselves in different ways in different people. This is where personal genome service will come in handed. As molecular biology advances we will understand more about how we work. This won't just be information that the medical researchers will use. It will be information that we can all use to make informed choices about how to optimise our health."

I did not think about it like that, I am looking forward to it.

"I don't know if it's true or not, but I wonder if low serotonin might be the cause of your reaction to choline supplementation.

For example, taking phenylalanine before I had supplemented tryptophan for a couple of months made me very moody. Phenylalanine doesn't do the same thing now; it just gives me a nice energy boost, as does citicoline.
"

Yes, I think it might be related, I do have low seratonin, and I supplement at night only currently yet I notice definate improvements, if I take choline I must make matters worse.

And Phenylalanine also makes me very moody and nervous.

I also have low Gabba levels. I supplement Taurine 3g, 3 times a day to balance my mood a bit, and Magnesium, I will also add some glutamine soon but in the past I did not notice much change from glutamine. Phenibut worked well but the side effects after a few weeks make it not worth using, also dose requirement goes up quickly for the same sedative effect over time.

What's your dosing schedule for the tryptophan ?

#8 stephen_b

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 04:46 AM

What's your dosing schedule for the tryptophan ?

I take 1000 mg at bedtime on an empty stomach.

I'm going to give glutamine a try too, also on an empty stomach and see what it does for me. I know that some take it in very large quantity, but I'm going to try a 500 mg dose to start with.

Stephen

#9 edward

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 05:10 AM

Excess acetylcholine can cause symptoms of anxiety, agitation and depression in some people, sounds like you are one of those people. Your acetylcholine system probably doesn't need optimizing at this point.

edit: Thus I wouldnt mess with it. Try nootropics/supplements that work on different systems, possibly dopamine would be my guess if you feel you want to enhance your cognitive abilities. Ever tried Deprenyl?

Edited by edward, 10 June 2008 - 05:12 AM.


#10 mikeinnaples

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 12:34 PM

I am beginning to think I have the same exact issue with Choline.

Which Deprynl do you use?

#11 Chiggy

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 06:34 PM

"I take 1000 mg at bedtime on an empty stomach. "

Stephen, Thats what I take currently and its working quite well, I am thinking of adding it in daytime also. Let me know how you get on with glutamine.

"Excess acetylcholine can cause symptoms of anxiety, agitation and depression in some people, sounds like you are one of those people. Your acetylcholine system probably doesn't need optimizing at this point.

edit: Thus I wouldnt mess with it. Try nootropics/supplements that work on different systems, possibly dopamine would be my guess if you feel you want to enhance your cognitive abilities. Ever tried Deprenyl?
"

Yes Edward you are correct, I suffer from anxiety, agitation and mild depression, although depression is not really a problem any more since I started meditation and increased my serotonin with Tryptophan, and have been exercising heavily all my life. Ideally I would love to some how lower my levels of acetylcholine a little, I think that would lift my anxiety a bit, any ideas on supplements or drugs that could do this, ? or is it simply a matter of increasing the serotonin and gabba levels.

I also have normal to high dopamine levels already, deprenyl works a little but I can get aggressive and irritable and anxious if the dose is more than only 2,5mg/week.

#12 kenj

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 07:07 PM

Hello,

I seem to be very sensitive to all supplements that enhance Choline or the related system in any way.

Choline, supplemental B Vitamins, Centrophenoxine, ALCAR all seem to make me irritable and feel crappy, although I seem to be a little more productive.

Overstimulation happens with even very small doses of the above.

I am concerned since most of the above are important for anti aging, and currently i am avoiding them all.

Any ideas what's causing this ?

Thanks,

Chiggy.


Too much supplemental choline is just bad news for every healthy person. Your lifestyle (exercise, sleep/rest/stress, ejaculatory frequency, medication/drug use, food/drink intake etc.) will influence the 'usage' of ACh, but elevating ACh continually will eventually cause the symptoms you mention.

#13 Chiggy

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 07:20 PM

I have the symptoms without additional supplementation, anxiety, aggitation etc ,supplementing just makes matters worse so I avoid it.

Too much supplemental choline is just bad news for every healthy person. Your lifestyle (exercise, sleep/rest/stress, ejaculatory frequency, medication/drug use, food/drink intake etc.) will influence the 'usage' of ACh, but elevating ACh continually will eventually cause the symptoms you mention.


Edited by Chiggy, 10 June 2008 - 07:29 PM.


#14 stephen_b

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 10:15 PM

Ideally I would love to some how lower my levels of acetylcholine a little

Doesn't coffee lower it? Or one of the racetams?

Stephen

#15 Chiggy

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 11:25 PM

I know I can take a high dose and get foggy headed with paracetam, but side effects from paracetam use were mostly agitation and anxiety in the long run. Maybe another racetam ?...

Coffee also makes matters worse, I try to avoid caffeine anyway for health reasons



Ideally I would love to some how lower my levels of acetylcholine a little

Doesn't coffee lower it? Or one of the racetams?

Stephen



#16 Chiggy

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Posted 11 June 2008 - 10:40 PM

As an update, I have taken my first dose of TMG today, 500mg, and I feel great!, sharp and quick with mild euphoria.

It’s the only supplement that has made me feel so good without over stimulation or irritability.

However, it could be just all placebo effect, the next month or so shall show the truth.

Have others experienced similar effects?

Chiggy.

#17 yuri35434

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 12:45 AM

Maybe you guys are undermethylated?

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#18 happy

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 02:06 AM

Excess acetylcholine can cause symptoms of anxiety, agitation and depression in some people, sounds like you are one of those people. Your acetylcholine system probably doesn't need optimizing at this point.

edit: Thus I wouldnt mess with it. Try nootropics/supplements that work on different systems, possibly dopamine would be my guess if you feel you want to enhance your cognitive abilities. Ever tried Deprenyl?


I've been feeling the same way. I've been feeling lethargic lately, and I also feel aggressive and irritable with more than 2-5mg Deprenyl a week. I no longer take Deprenyl. Should I stay away from AcH altogether or could it be the shitty brand I'm using? (NSI)

I've introduced L-Tryptophan in the evenings (500mg) and DLPA in the mornings. Today I feel as if I've "rebounded" from the shittiness of excess ach/dopamine levels.

My current regimen is:

Morning Noot Stack:

Rhodiola
Piracetam
DMAE
CoQ10
ACH/ALA
1tbsp lecithin

Evening:

Bacopa
Ashwagandha
Melatonin (Won't take if I take L-Trypto)

I'm going to be introducing L-Trypto and DLPA this week to see and note any changes.

Has anyone else also experienced this as a result of Deprenyl or ACH overstimulation?

Any recommendations in regards to amino acids I may take to rebalance myself?

I'm reading about Idebenone / L-Tyrosine..




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