14 replies to this topic

[resveratrol]

Some questions about saunas if anyone can answer:

We know that exposure to heat induces the production of heat shock proteins (HSPs), which play a major role in ensuring correct protein folding in the cell.

There is some very intriguing evidence linking HSPs to longevity ([1] [2] [3]).

The production of heat-shock proteins declines with age in all species that have been observed.

Resveratrol induces production of heat-shock proteins, which may account for some of its biological effects).

We also know that caloric restriction (CR) reverses the age-related decline in the production of heat-shock protein hsp70, at least in rats ... which, if true for humans, may account for some of the biological effects of caloric restriction. (Blueberries also seem to have some interesting effects with regard to inducing hsp70 response ... again, at least in rats).

All this leads me to wonder:

• To what extent do saunas increase production of heat-shock proteins, and what duration of sauna therapy is required to produce optimal results?
• Does sauna therapy significantly increase the rate of glycation? Given that the Maillard reaction generally requires heat, and that the body generates heat-shock proteins in response this stress, it's clear that the body believes that heating is not a good thing.
• Is there an optimal temperature for inducing heat-shock proteins without inducing glycation, and if so, how close are saunas to that optimal temperature?
• Also, do different types of saunas (infrared, "dry" saunas, and steam saunas) have significantly different effects on these factors?

Edited by resveratrol, 28 June 2008 - 08:16 PM.

[resveratrol]

One interesting bit from http://www.brown.edu...chaperones.html:

However, Tatar said people shouldn't think they will live longer by taking daily doses of heat or by sitting in endless saunas.

"Our bodies tightly regulate hsp70 and other heat-shock proteins," he said. "Although heat, cold and all sorts of stresses can elicit these chaperone proteins, the normal level of stress actually produces the body's optimal amount of heat-shock proteins. So putting your body through a series of minor stresses, such as heat exposure, won't elicit any more of the proteins in the long run. Your body is controlling their threshold levels."

Sorry, no research to back this up as far as I can tell. Not sure if I buy it or not.

[caston]

Andy Dillon from the Sulk institute studies the effects of HSPs and chaperones on longevity. He defines youthfulness as "accuracy and precision in protein folding"

Edited by caston, 29 June 2008 - 03:57 AM.

[maxwatt]

Some questions about saunas if anyone can answer:

We know that exposure to heat induces the production of heat shock proteins (HSPs), which play a major role in ensuring correct protein folding in the cell.

There is some very intriguing evidence linking HSPs to longevity ([1] [2] [3]).

The production of heat-shock proteins declines with age in all species that have been observed.

Resveratrol induces production of heat-shock proteins, which may account for some of its biological effects).

We also know that caloric restriction (CR) reverses the age-related decline in the production of heat-shock protein hsp70, at least in rats ... which, if true for humans, may account for some of the biological effects of caloric restriction. (Blueberries also seem to have some interesting effects with regard to inducing hsp70 response ... again, at least in rats).

All this leads me to wonder:

• To what extent do saunas increase production of heat-shock proteins, and what duration of sauna therapy is required to produce optimal results?
• Does sauna therapy significantly increase the rate of glycation? Given that the Maillard reaction generally requires heat, and that the body generates heat-shock proteins in response this stress, it's clear that the body believes that heating is not a good thing.
• Is there an optimal temperature for inducing heat-shock proteins without inducing glycation, and if so, how close are saunas to that optimal temperature?
• Also, do different types of saunas (infrared, "dry" saunas, and steam saunas) have significantly different effects on these factors?

Exercise, particularly strenuous aerobic with elevated heart-rate, also induces heat shock protein, including HSP70.
I do not think you can raise your core body temperature sufficiently by sauna or exercise to increase the rate of glycation. If you did, you would have more serious and immediate problems requiring medical attention. As a point of reference, chemical reactions take place twice as fast for every 10 degrees Celsius increase in temperature.

[Ben]

As a point of reference, chemical reactions take place twice as fast for every 10 degrees Celsius increase in temperature.

I'm guessing that you would seriously notice a 10 degree raise of your internal body temperature

Since you are a warm-blooded animal, your body attempts to keep its internal temperature constant. Human life is only compatible with a narrow range of temperatures:

Temperature (Celsius), Symptoms:

28, muscle failure
0, loss of body temp. control
33, loss of consciousness
37, normal
42, central nervous system breakdown
44, death*

Death. Hmm, maybe you wouldn't notice it.

[resveratrol]

I do not think you can raise your core body temperature sufficiently by sauna or exercise to increase the rate of glycation. If you did, you would have more serious and immediate problems requiring medical attention. As a point of reference, chemical reactions take place twice as fast for every 10 degrees Celsius increase in temperature.

Thanks, Max; you've convinced me that glycation is a non-issue.

I'm also wondering about denaturation of proteins and enzyme breakdown, and the extent to which saunas cause more long-term breakdown than the heat-shock proteins can repair. If sauna therapy induces even 1% more damage than the HSPs can repair, or has a chance to induce any forms of damage that the body can never repair, then it's a net loss.

I've read a lot of stuff online that indicates that saunas do indeed stimulate production of HSPs, but it's not clear yet to what extent they do so, and what duration of sauna exposure is required.

If the quote from Marc Tatar above is really correct, and the body does strictly regulate HSPs, then saunas must be counterproductive, since they induce damage but don't actually lead to any long-term HSP surplus.

Edited by resveratrol, 29 June 2008 - 04:19 PM.

[Brainbox]

Some general research abstracts...

Influence of genital heat stress on semen quality in humans.
Components of practical clinical detox programs--sauna as a therapeutic tool.
Benefits and risks of sauna bathing. Do not combine with alcohol.
Facts and fables about sauna.

Amd a more comprehensive review:
The health hazards of saunas and spas and how to minimize them.

[krillin]

As a point of reference, chemical reactions take place twice as fast for every 10 degrees Celsius increase in temperature.

I'm surprised by how accurate that rule of thumb is in this instance. From PMID: 8393658 I got an activation energy of 65 kJ/mol for a certain glycation reaction. The reaction rate would thus double going from 37 C to 46 C.

[resveratrol]

Some general research abstracts...

Influence of genital heat stress on semen quality in humans.
Components of practical clinical detox programs--sauna as a therapeutic tool.
Benefits and risks of sauna bathing. Do not combine with alcohol.
Facts and fables about sauna.

Amd a more comprehensive review:
The health hazards of saunas and spas and how to minimize them.

Thanks!

[Johan Sebastian]

Usual disclaimer: I am in no way recommending potentially dangerous ventures into hot and sweaty environments. What I am suggesting is that I have personal experiences that will validate the suggestions posted by Reservatrol. My experiences, my laboratory originate from my home sauna, I had been using uneventfully for over eight years .



My validation of Reservatrols hypothesis happened once last year and once this year.

.



The effect, to put it mildly, was evoked ( accidentally of course ) by doing some intense physical exercise several hours before going in the sauna. In the sauna, the usual heating to sweating took place culminating with a very intense Oak branch switching.



The result: a long feverish (104 at times) lethargic week of deep introspection, w/o any other signs of infection. Blood test revealed abnormal blood counts … but nothing else. I have to conclude that I evoked a heat shock protein reaction. As for immortality? I believe this offers a promising means of re-vitalizing older bodies like mine.



Drawbacks:

it is time and energy intensive…. and it takes several weeks to recover. Give yourself about a month and don’t overdo it. See you on the other side.



Usual disclaimer: I am in no way recommending potentially dangerous ventures into hot and sweaty environments. What I am suggesting is that I have personal experiences that will validate the suggestions posted by Reservatrol. My experiences, my laboratory originate from my home sauna, I had been using uneventfully for over eight years .



My validation of Reservatrols hypothesis happened once last year and once this year.

.



The effect, to put it mildly, was evoked ( accidentally of course ) by doing some intense physical exercise several hours before going in the sauna. In the sauna, the usual heating to sweating took place culminating with a very intense Oak branch switching.



The result: a long feverish (104 at times) lethargic week of deep introspection, w/o any other signs of infection. Blood test revealed abnormal blood counts … but nothing else. I have to conclude that I evoked a heat shock protein reaction. As for immortality? I believe this offers a promising means of re-vitalizing older bodies like mine.



Drawbacks:

it is time and energy intensive…. and it takes several weeks to recover. Give yourself about a month and don’t overdo it. See you on the other side.

[Groundhog Day]

study claims sauna bathing can do so much more: it could reduce the risk of cardiovascular and all-cause mortality.

 

Interesting new study that came out a few months ago:

 

Men who had 4-7 sauna sessions benefited even more; they were at 63% lower risk of sudden cardiac death, 48% lower risk of CHD death, 50% lower risk of CVD death and were 40% less likely to die from all causes, compared with those who had one sauna session a week.

 

Longer sauna duration was also associated with lower risk of fatal CHD and fatal CVD, though it did not appear to affect the risk of all-cause mortality.

 

 

 

 

 

[Gerrans]

When I get out of a hot bath, my heart beats like the clappers. It would be alarming were I not used to it over a lifetime--but it is pretty clear that it does not harm me (though I can understand why individuals might occasionally pass out, as they might do after overstrenuous physical effort). Certainly, I feel I need a lie down to recover.

 

I am now coming round to the view that not only is this rapid heartbeat phenomenon not harmful but it might be healthy, since it gives the heart a short workout. Cardio exercise is said to be a good thing for the same reason. Of course, having a sauna or a bath cannot be equated with exercise, because we are not working our muscles--but I find my pulse going at around 120 for a minute or two (my resting pulse is 60), which represents a modest but tangible cardio session. So it would not surprise me if saunas are mildly beneficial to the heart.

Edited by Gerrans, 23 July 2015 - 11:28 AM.

[Darryl]

For the brave, combine saunas with your nicotinic acid flush and oral capsaicin.

 

Ma L et al. 2014. Nicotinic acid activates the capsaicin receptor TRPV1 potential mechanism for cutaneous flushing. Arteriosclerosis, thrombosis, and vascular biology,34(6), 1272-1280.

Using exogenously expressed TRPV1, we confirmed that nicotinic acid at submillimolar to millimolar concentrations directly and potently activates TRPV1 from the intracellular side. 

 

Confirmation:

 

Clifton HL et al. 2015. TRPV1 channels are involved in niacin-induced cutaneous vasodilation in mice.Journal of cardiovascular pharmacology, 65(2), 184-191.

 

Hsu, W. L., & Yoshioka, T. (2015). Role of TRP channels in the induction of heat shock proteins (Hsps) by heating skin. BIOPHYSICS, 11(0), 25-32.

 

No smoking gun, just a strong hypothesis and an experimental design:

 

The coexistence of TRPV1 and TRPA1 potentially supports a model to explain how hyperthermia can produce Hsps in the cell. This coexistence fulfills the necessary and sufficient conditions to produce Hsps; for Hsp production in the nucleus, an IP₃ signal is needed. For IP3 production, PLC β must be activated; the Nishizuka school has already established that a rapid increase in Ca²⁺ is enough for PLC β activation in vitro. Also for in vivo study, a conditional tissue specific knockout mice are established, blocking TRPV1 or TRPA1 in skin to further detect the production of Hsps after IR/NIR exposure. Therefore, we hypothesize that the activation of TRP channels induces several types of Hsp proteins via intracellular calcium elevation to protect human skin (the largest organ of the human body) and maintain skin homeostasis from harmful EMW and high temperature.

 

Mark McCarty seems interested in the TRPV1 channel as well:

 

McCarty MF et al. 2015. Capsaicin may have important potential for promoting vascular and metabolic health. Open heart, 2(1), e000262.

 

 

This increase in Cai acts rapidly to stimulate endothelial nitric oxide synthase (eNOS) activity... Treatment of endothelial cells with capsaicin leads to increased expression and activation of eNOS... Wild-type, but not TRPV1-knockout mice, dietary capsaicin enhances endothelium-dependent vasodilation.

 

TRPV1 activation has also been shown to increase expression of uncoupling protein 2 (UCP2) in endothelial cells, hepatocytes and cardiac tissue... UCP2 can be of particular value when cells that are constitutively permeable to glucose—such as vascular endothelium—are subjected to hyperglycaemia. Under these circumstances, elevated glucose oxidation in the Krebs cycle tends to boost mitochondrial superoxide generation, an effect opposed by UCP2.

 

In obese mice, capsaicin injections exert an anti-inflammatory effect on adipose tissue, suppressing production of IL-6, TNF-α, MCP-1, and cox-2, while boosting that of adiponectin, and decreasing macrophage infiltration.

 

 

 

Edited by Darryl, 23 July 2015 - 10:42 PM.

[lourdaud]

When I get out of a hot bath, my heart beats like the clappers. It would be alarming were I not used to it over a lifetime--but it is pretty clear that it does not harm me (though I can understand why individuals might occasionally pass out, as they might do after overstrenuous physical effort). Certainly, I feel I need a lie down to recover.

 

I am now coming round to the view that not only is this rapid heartbeat phenomenon not harmful but it might be healthy, since it gives the heart a short workout. Cardio exercise is said to be a good thing for the same reason. Of course, having a sauna or a bath cannot be equated with exercise, because we are not working our muscles--but I find my pulse going at around 120 for a minute or two (my resting pulse is 60), which represents a modest but tangible cardio session. So it would not surprise me if saunas are mildly beneficial to the heart.

 

Might not loss of sodium also play a part? Saunas do make you sweat a lot.

[proileri]

When I get out of a hot bath, my heart beats like the clappers. It would be alarming were I not used to it over a lifetime--but it is pretty clear that it does not harm me (though I can understand why individuals might occasionally pass out, as they might do after overstrenuous physical effort). Certainly, I feel I need a lie down to recover.

 

I am now coming round to the view that not only is this rapid heartbeat phenomenon not harmful but it might be healthy, since it gives the heart a short workout. Cardio exercise is said to be a good thing for the same reason. Of course, having a sauna or a bath cannot be equated with exercise, because we are not working our muscles--but I find my pulse going at around 120 for a minute or two (my resting pulse is 60), which represents a modest but tangible cardio session. So it would not surprise me if saunas are mildly beneficial to the heart.

 

I agree with the exercise connection. From my first hand sauna experience, severe heat stress is certainly taxing to the body, and somewhat does resemble exercise. I'd say the mechanism is through the stress that body experiences when struggling to dissipate heat by increasing circulation and sweating - which of course is part of exercise stress, as well. It would be interesting to see data how much energy, oxygen etc. body uses when responding to such stress, or, how much of a workout it actually is.  

 

When it comes to oral capsaicin, I wouldn't recommend eating chili before or during sauna. Chili tends to sensitize the heat receptors in the mouth, which is a fun combination when breathing in hot air :D 

Edited by proileri, 29 July 2015 - 07:11 AM.