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Resveratrol - Joint Pain


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13 replies to this topic

#1 luv2increase

  • Location:Ohio

Posted 02 September 2008 - 06:14 PM


Through reading a lot of anecdotal feedback on resveratrol, is seems as though joint pain may be the one major drawback to its use.


My question is this: if someone is susceptible to joint problems while taking resveratrol, will that problem ultimately get worse with continued supplementation?

If so, wouldn't that be a huge concern to using it. I mean for one, we don't even know if it extends life in humans for a fact, and secondly; I don't think I'd want to be living with pain for an extended amount of time. Also, this is kinda like CR in that being skinny (having joint pain in the case for resveratrol) can cause biochemical stress responses which may shorten one's lifespan.
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#2 notox Re: Resveratrol - Joint Pain

  • Location:Berlin

Posted 03 September 2008 - 04:46 AM

Through reading a lot of anecdotal feedback on resveratrol, is seems as though joint pain may be the one major drawback to its use.


My question is this: if someone is susceptible to joint problems while taking resveratrol, will that problem ultimately get worse with continued supplementation?

If so, wouldn't that be a huge concern to using it. I mean for one, we don't even know if it extends life in humans for a fact, and secondly; I don't think I'd want to be living with pain for an extended amount of time. Also, this is kinda like CR in that being skinny (having joint pain in the case for resveratrol) can cause biochemical stress responses which may shorten one's lifespan.



Have had joint problems culminating into miniscus rupture two years ago (before taking RES)
In the two years before the meniscus rupture my right knee was burning
sometimes so that I awake in the night from the pain and I had an inflammation
of both knees so that I could hardly go down on them anymore.

About 1 month after surgery I started resveratrol (50% stuff from CL) and it seemed to help.
At least my left knee was completely without any sign of burning/inflammation. Of course the
right keen was in recovery from the surgery and had problems with swelling and an
aggravating feeling. The last two month were without any signs from my knees (for the first time
after years) and I can do everything (soccer, running, jumping, playing with my kids)
without problems.

While surgery my right knee was diagnosed with grade III chondropathy in the medial
compartment and a very little grade IV defect under the patella.

Currently I'm using 2-3 grams 99% resv per day and successively increased dose.
Within this time I have never had any new inflammation in my left knee and my right
knee recovers to the point where I can't notice any difference to the other one

Edited by notox, 03 September 2008 - 04:47 AM.

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#3 luv2increase Re: Resveratrol - Joint Pain

  • Location:Ohio

Posted 03 September 2008 - 05:13 AM

Thanks for the response notox! I'm glad you are doing great!


Does anyone else have any feedback they would like to share?

Edited by luv2increase, 03 September 2008 - 05:13 AM.

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#4 wccaguy Re: Resveratrol - Joint Pain

  • Location:Chicago, IL

Posted 03 September 2008 - 05:34 AM

I'm a bit confused about where you're seeing Resveratrol causing Joint Pain. There appear to be quite a few studies showing it to be helpful for joint pain.

Having said that, it seems to me that it's not enough to hit the Cox-2 inflammatory pathway with Resveratrol. It's also important to hit the 5-Lipoxygenase inflammatory pathway.

I think 5-Loxin Boswellia is the thing to try to do this at present.


http://arthritis-res...ontent/10/4/R85

A double blind, randomized, placebo controlled study of the efficacy and safety of 5-Loxin for treatment of osteoarthritis of the knee

Abstract (provisional)

Introduction

5-Loxin® is a novel Boswellia serrata extract enriched with 30% 3-O-acetyl-11-keto-beta-boswellic acid (AKBA), which exhibits potential anti-inflammatory properties by inhibiting the 5-lipoxygenase enzyme. A 90-day, double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled study was conducted to evaluate the efficacy and safety of 5-Loxin® in the treatment of osteoarthritis (OA) of the knee.
Methods

Seventy-five OA patients were included in the study. The patients received either 100 mg (n = 25) or 250 mg (n = 25) of 5-Loxin® daily or a placebo (n = 25) for 90 days. Each patient was evaluated for pain and physical functions by using the standard tools (visual analog scale, Lequesne's Functional Index, and Western Ontario and McMaster Universities Osteoarthritis Index) at the baseline (day 0), and at days 7, 30, 60 and 90. Additionally, the cartilage degrading enzyme matrix metalloproteinase-3 was also evaluated in synovial fluid from OA patients. Measurement of a battery of biochemical parameters in serum and haematological parameters, and urine analysis were performed to evaluate the safety of 5-Loxin® in OA patients.
Results

Seventy patients completed the study. At the end of the study, both doses of 5-Loxin® conferred clinically and statistically significant improvements in pain scores and physical function scores in OA patients. Interestingly, significant improvements in pain score and functional ability were recorded in the treatment group supplemented with 250 mg 5-Loxin® as early as 7 days after the start of treatment. Corroborating the improvements in pain scores in treatment groups, we also noted significant reduction in synovial fluid matrix metalloproteinase-3. In comparison with placebo, the safety parameters were almost unchanged in the treatment groups.
Conclusions

5-Loxin® reduces pain and improves physical functioning significantly in OA patients; and it is safe for human consumption. 5-Loxin® may exert its beneficial effects by controlling inflammatory responses through reducing proinflammatory modulators, and it may improve joint health by reducing the enzymatic degradation of cartilage in OA patients. (Clinical trial registration number: ISRCTN05212803.)
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#5 Stokestack Re: Resveratrol - Joint Pain

Posted 03 September 2008 - 06:04 AM

I have some experience to share.

I took 500 mg Biotivia for about two months. During that time, I had continual patellar tendonitis.

Near the end, I noticed strange sharp occasional pains in one Achilles tendon. This typically occurred when shifting my foot position while sitting in a meeting. I hadn't made any connection between any of this and the resveratrol until reading some marketing FUD from a low-dose vendor, which claimed that resveratrol chelated copper and threatened the integrity of tendons by interfering with collagen production.

Another bad development for me was the return of plantar fasciitis, which I've had for many many years but had largely subsided. In fact, it is now punctuated with stabbing pains that I never experienced even at its worst.

I didn't change or increase any activity that would account for these symptoms.

I also experience increased snapping and popping of hand joints, but I can't say I would have been alarmed by this without the other symptoms.

After making the Achilles connection, I immediately stopped resveratrol and started taking copper and other "regular" vitamins. The knee pain has essentially disappeared after a few weeks. The Achilles soreness remains, although I don't notice the sharp stabs. The plantar fasciitis is unchanged and bad. I have some odd occasional shoulder pain, but I had some similar experience before.

My recommendation is: Don't mess with resveratrol. Many (perhaps even most) are simply not observant or objective about their own bodies and senses. I wasn't looking for a scapegoat or problems; it was only after they appeared that I made the connection. People doing studies to prove the commercial value of this compound aren't going to step up with suspected problems.

And don't discount cognitive dissonance and people's willingness to delude themselves. They want this stuff to work and many people have invested a lot of time and hope in it. They do not want to believe that it's harming them.

The lack of FDA oversight here doesn't help. But even that wouldn't guarantee safety. Look at the way Cipro and other quinolones were prescribed with no warnings about the way they can destroy connective tissue. A friend of mine had his Achilles tendon rupture after taking Cipro eight years ago, and a little research revealed that this was a common side effect. This can wreck an active person's life. Yet it wasn't until a couple of MONTHS ago and a lawsuit that the FDA finally forced them to put a black-box warning on this crap.

And there are still no warnings on corticosteroid medications like Nasonex, Flonase, asthma inhalers, creams... about the eye damage they can cause (central serous retinopathy). This stuff is handed out like candy, but most people's vision is so bad that they don't notice and report the resulting degradation. So you don't hear about it.

I knew about these things, and felt that the overwhelmingly positive findings about resveratrol made it worth trying. Now I wonder why.
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#6 notox Re: Resveratrol - Joint Pain

  • Location:Berlin

Posted 04 September 2008 - 04:50 AM

Just found the following, hope that enough resveratrol enters the synovial fluid
to be effective:

The antioxidant resveratrol protects against chondrocyte apoptosis via effects on mitochondrial polarization and ATP production.Dave M, Attur M, Palmer G, Al-Mussawir HE, Kennish L, Patel J, Abramson SB.
New York University Hospital for Joint Diseases, New York, New York.

OBJECTIVE: To determine the effects of the antioxidant resveratrol on the functions of human chondrocytes in osteoarthritis (OA). METHODS: Chondrocytes and cartilage explants were isolated from OA patients undergoing knee replacement surgery. Effects of resveratrol in the presence or absence of interleukin-1beta (IL-1beta) stimulation were assessed by measurement of prostaglandin E(2) (PGE(2)) and leukotriene B(4) (LTB(4)) synthesis, cyclooxygenase (COX) activity, matrix metalloproteinase (MMP) expression, and proteoglycan production. To explore the mechanisms of action of resveratrol, its effects on mitochondrial function and apoptosis were examined by assessing mitochondrial membrane potential, ATP levels, cytochrome c release, and annexin V staining. RESULTS: Resveratrol inhibited both spontaneous and IL-1beta-induced PGE(2) production by >20% (P < 0.05) and by 80% (P < 0.001), respectively; similarly, LTB(4) production was reduced by >50% (P < 0.05). The production of PGE(2) was inhibited via a 70-90% suppression of COX-2 expression and enzyme activity (P < 0.05). Resveratrol also promoted anabolic effects in OA explant cultures, by elevating proteoglycan synthesis and decreasing production of MMPs 1, 3, and 13. Pretreatment of OA chondrocytes with resveratrol blocked mitochondrial membrane depolarization, loss of mitochondrial biomass, and IL-1beta-induced ATP depletion. Similarly, IL-1beta-mediated induction of the apoptotic markers cytochrome c and annexin V was also inhibited by resveratrol. Exogenous addition of PGE(2) abolished the protective effects of resveratrol on mitochondrial membrane integrity, ATP levels, expression of apoptotic markers, and DNA fragmentation. CONCLUSION: Resveratrol protects against IL-1beta-induced catabolic effects and prevents chondrocyte apoptosis via its inhibition of mitochondrial membrane depolarization and ATP depletion. These beneficial effects of resveratrol are due, in part, to its capacity to inhibit COX-2-derived PGE(2) synthesis. Resveratrol may therefore protect against oxidant injury and apoptosis, which are main features of progressive OA.

PMID: 18759268 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
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#7 quarter Re: Resveratrol - Joint Pain

Posted 04 September 2008 - 11:24 AM

Thanks for the response notox! I'm glad you are doing great!


Does anyone else have any feedback they would like to share?


I have posted about this before but I thought you might like to hear my anecdote too. Over a year ago I experienced achilles tendon pain on both legs whilst supplementing with at least 500mgs daily of 50% resveratrol (Country Life brand). This pain dissipated and then disappeared when I stopped the res supplementation and has not returned since.

Points to note:

I had previously experienced and recovered from achilles tendon pain before Res supplementation but it was not as bad, didn't last as long and was only on one side, none the less achilles pain was not entirely unique to my time supplementing with Res.

I was taking a 50% res, possibly the contents of the other 50% were at play.

I am a competitive sprinter (just at club level) and thus my achilles tendons are subjected to an increased workload over the average person.

My gut feeling is that resveratrol did weaken my tendons to some extent so that they were unable to withstand my sprint training workload. Had I not been involved in athletics I may never have noticed - hence why many supplementees may never notice. I do believe I experienced some form of subtle stamina boost, this was my primary reason for beginning the res supplementation. The lure of this stamina boost tempts me to keep an interest in resveratrol in case the association I have made between the res supplementation and my tendon pain was purely coincidental or a result of the 50% purity.

I am considering the idea of a short burst of res supplementation at the very end of my competitive season, hopefully conferring the stamina benefits for a few races but not lasting long enough to see the tendon weaking problems before my post season break.
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#8 maxwatt Re: Resveratrol - Joint Pain

  • Location:New York

Posted 04 September 2008 - 12:43 PM

....
I am a competitive sprinter (just at club level) and thus my achilles tendons are subjected to an increased workload over the average person.

My gut feeling is that resveratrol did weaken my tendons to some extent so that they were unable to withstand my sprint training workload. Had I not been involved in athletics I may never have noticed - hence why many supplementees may never notice. I do believe I experienced some form of subtle stamina boost, this was my primary reason for beginning the res supplementation. The lure of this stamina boost tempts me to keep an interest in resveratrol in case the association I have made between the res supplementation and my tendon pain was purely coincidental or a result of the 50% purity.

I am considering the idea of a short burst of res supplementation at the very end of my competitive season, hopefully conferring the stamina benefits for a few races but not lasting long enough to see the tendon weaking problems before my post season break.


I would consider supplementing resveratrol in the off-season, and perhaps during early season training, but stop at least three days to a week before an effort that would strain those Achilles tendons. The idea is to build up the mitochondria, both in number and size, with resveratrol, an effect that should persist well after supplementation ceases. The anti-inflammatory effects of resveratrol do not, I believe, last nearly as long as the cellular benefits to mitochondria. You could probably supplement during the season, but not for three days before a hard training effort, nor after, at least until any inflammation has subsided. If you use a training cycle schedule, it may be possible to work this in to it. Achilles tendon stretches might be a big help too.
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#9 sthira Re: Resveratrol - Joint Pain

Posted 04 September 2008 - 05:59 PM

My recommendation is: Don't mess with resveratrol. Many (perhaps even most) are simply not observant or objective about their own bodies and senses. I wasn't looking for a scapegoat or problems; it was only after they appeared that I made the connection. People doing studies to prove the commercial value of this compound aren't going to step up with suspected problems.


I have some anecdotal evidence to share, too, but mine is coming from the opposite direction. I've been taking about a gram a day of Anthony's P99 for about six months. I'm also an avid Iyengar yoga practioner, and I can say without hesitation that I've been able to move more easily into some of the more challenging yoga positions that I had not been able to acheive. My entire body feels looser, stronger, and more flexible. My joints and tendons feel more open and compliant. I ache less the next day. Do I give the credit to the resveratrol? Is it placebo? Is it that I've just gotten better at yoga? Or, maybe it's a combination of factors. I don't know. But I do know that my yoga practice has taken a huge step forward, and that step has coincided with resveratrol use.
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#10 aaron_e Re: Resveratrol - Joint Pain

  • Location:.

Posted 30 October 2009 - 02:59 AM

I have some experience to share.

I took 500 mg Biotivia for about two months. During that time, I had continual patellar tendonitis [and other joint pains ...]After making the Achilles connection, I immediately stopped resveratrol and started taking copper and other "regular" vitamins. The knee pain has essentially disappeared after a few weeks. [...]

My recommendation is: Don't mess with resveratrol.


emodin, which is found in the knotweed plant that commercial resveratrol is derived from, can cause tendon problems. maybe try a 99% RSV product?

Edited by Michael, 30 October 2009 - 02:30 PM.
Trim quotes

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#11 nowayout Re: Resveratrol - Joint Pain

  • Location:Earth

Posted 30 October 2009 - 12:20 PM

emodin, which is found in the knotweed plant that commercial resveratrol is derived from, can cause tendon problems. maybe try a 99% RSV product?


That was a plausible theory while it lasted, but it has since been superseded by new data.

There is a number of reports on these forums and elsewhere of joint pain from 99% resveratrol products.

Edited by viveutvivas, 30 October 2009 - 12:25 PM.

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#12 Anthony_Loera Re: Resveratrol - Joint Pain

  • Location:Miami Florida

Posted 30 October 2009 - 01:46 PM

New Data?

Science based or ... other?
Remember if your are genetically susceptible to gout, I don't believe you should take much of it...

A
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#13 nowayout Re: Resveratrol - Joint Pain

  • Location:Earth

Posted 30 October 2009 - 02:09 PM

New Data?

Science based or ... other?


Anecdotal, like almost everything else, positive or negative, regarding the use of resveratrol in healthy humans. :~ However, with regard to joint or tendon pain, the number of anecdotal accounts is large for resveratrol in general, and smaller, but growing, for high-purity resveratrol, which does suggest that it is probably the resveratrol that is responsible for the effect.

Remember if your are genetically susceptible to gout, I don't believe you should take much of it...


I didn't know that.

But I don't believe the majority of tendon symptoms from resveratrol could be remotely interpreted as gout-related.

I have seen reports of people suffering from certain autoimmune conditions claiming bad flareups coincident with resveratrol use. For all we know, in susceptible people resveratrol might even cause an autoimmune condition, which may be behind some of the joint pain cases, but I am speculating. Of course, if true, this is very bad, since autoimmune conditions are mostly incurable.

It should always be emphasized that it is very risky to take a supplement such as resveratrol that has a variety of unknown effects via (probably a host of) unknown mechanisms.

Edited by viveutvivas, 30 October 2009 - 02:33 PM.

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#14 maxwatt Re: Resveratrol - Joint Pain

  • Location:New York

Posted 30 October 2009 - 03:42 PM

FWIW, joint pain appears to be dosage related; a number of my correspondents have decreased their dosage and found that a dose of 1/4 to 1/2 of what they had been taking, did not cause the problem, but still provided whatever benefits they wanted. Intake of other polyphenols, eg grapefruit, pomegranate, or qercetin, were also reported to cause joint pain when combined with resveratrol.

Not a controlled clinical study, but something to consider.
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