12 replies to this topic

[edward]

I have been doing a lot of thinking prompted by the recent research on dietary AGEs and methionine and lifespan vis a vis the modern version of the low carb paleo diet, which I have been eating for awhile now with great results with regards to body composition and energy levels.

I posted some of this in the AGE content of Whey protein thread but I thought it deserved its own thread.

The research indicates that dietary AGEs are a very big deal, see attachment and graph, and that excess methionine (basically all complete proteins) is not so good either see 1st link below. Dietary AGEs are formed by the cooking of fat and protein and the amount in the typical low carb and even low carb paleo diet is quite high, see link below to AGE content of foods.

Granted one could consume raw proteins (only at the level of body requirements) uncooked fats and get a better approximation of a true paleo diet that would be low in AGE. But now a days we have to cook our meat and from a shear practicality standpoint and using what happens in real life, a low carb paleo diet will be high in cooked fats and proteins.

Low carb paleo is great for getting ones weight down and ones bloodwork looking good but a lower fat, lower protein, higher carb (low glycemic) will do the same thing so long as you are restricting calories somewhat, even just 10%.

Basically, while I am still currently eating low carb paleo, I am seriously considering switching to a mostly raw, mostly plant based, zone 40 30 30, low glycemic, CR diet. The level of CR I have not yet decided.

dietary age not only cancels the effects of CR but the CRd mice with high dietary AGE lived shorter lives than the ad lib controls! see attachment

methionine
http://www.fightagin...ives/001637.php

age content of foods
http://andersonclan....umeric_list.htm

Attached Files

•  Calorierestriction__dietaryAGEs_Vlassara2008vvs.pdf   1.48MB   65 downloads

Edited by edward, 06 January 2009 - 12:00 AM.

[niner]

Edward, this is a very timely post. I used to pooh-pooh the concept of endogenous AGEs, until I started looking at the research, particularly that from the Vlasara lab. I've been trying to develop a diet that is feasible in the modern world, and have really been impressed by guys like you and Duke. It's frustrating when even things that I recently though were good for me turn out to be bad. (Nuts shot full of w-6's, Canola oil...) So I'm trying to eat on the low temperature side of the spectrum most of the time, and trying to exclude grains and vegetable oils, most of the time, keeping the carbs down, and finally trying not to be fanatical about it. I just want to thank you for doing the research and putting the data out there for the rest of us. Keep it up.

[Mind]

Based on my rudimentary understanding, raising your carb consumption will not be a huge negative on health as long as you are CR. If you are NOT going CR then I would think it would be a net negative. Also, being raw and paleo is tough in today's world, can be expensive too. My primary protein is wild jerky meat (dried at 95 degrees) and eggs, so I am able to get around some of the AGEs. But when I am working out, I do have more whey protein, yogurt, and cheese. I try to balance comfort/enjoyment with life extension and the chances that new therapies are on the horizon. After all if someone discovers a cheap, safe, effective, comprehensive AGE-breaking enzyme next month and it comes into widespread use in a year or two (a guy can be optimistic, right?) then the concern about AGEs in your diet is greatly diminished.

Edited by Mind, 06 January 2009 - 07:58 PM.

[stephen_b]

Carboxy-methyl-lysine, according to the paper that edward posted, is a common AGE whose level correlates with other protein or lipid AGEs. I'm concerned that excess lysine (an essential amino acid) in the diet might add fuel to the AGE fire (whey contains a bunch, for example).

StephenB

Edit:
From here:

However, one animal study found that chicks fed with L-lysine developed elevated cholesterol and triglyceride levels. For this reason, individuals with cardiovascular disease and those with elevated cholesterol and/or triglyceride levels should consult a healthcare practitioner before taking lysine supplements.

Edited by stephen_b, 06 January 2009 - 08:30 PM.

[Shepard]

Full circle, folks.

At least it keeps life interesting.

[AgeVivo]

Based on my rudimentary understanding, raising your carb consumption will not be a huge negative on health as long as you are CR. If you are NOT going CR then I would think it would be a net negative. Also, being raw and paleo is tough in today's world, can be expensive too. My primary protein is wild jerky meat (dried at 95 degrees) and eggs, so I am able to get around some of the AGEs. But when I am working out, I do have more whey protein, yogurt, and cheese. I try to balance comfort/enjoyment with life extension and the chances that new therapies are on the horizon. After all if someone discovers a cheap, safe, effective, comprehensive AGE-breaking enzyme next month and it comes into widespread use in a year or two (a guy can be optimistic, right?) then the concern about AGEs in your diet is greatly diminished.

humm, not expert but it seems like yogurt and cheese increase risks of prostate cancer and egg white are full of methionine; much salad and vegetables, with a few carrots / potatoes in order not to look for sugar seems a good way to me to age slower.

[kenj]

Low carb paleo is great for getting ones weight down and ones bloodwork looking good but a lower fat, lower protein, higher carb (low glycemic) will do the same thing so long as you are restricting calories somewhat, even just 10%.

Basically, while I am still currently eating low carb paleo, I am seriously considering switching to a mostly raw, mostly plant based, zone 40 30 30, low glycemic, CR diet. The level of CR I have not yet decided.

Edward, I agree that this is the sensible, but hardcore diet (get ur healthmarkers in check before practising this!) to adapt if you wanna 'squeeze the most days' out of ur life.
Only you can't like run a marathon a week, but you'll probably walk more miles nevertheless in the long run................

EDIT: BTW, probably still low carbish though, if compared to the traditional western diet re: carb calories.

Edited by kenj, 07 January 2009 - 09:01 AM.

[JLL]

Are there any studies on differences in AGE production and absorption in humans vs. rats/mice? Humans have had a long time to adapt to eating foods cooked with fire, whereas rodents haven't.

[woly]

Do we have any idea how many endogenous AGEs are produced in response to ingesting some of these foods? Particularly the foods that contain low AGEs. Also i was wondering what people thought of perhaps implementing a fasting regimen while on a low carb diet as a comprimise? this would significantly reduce the amount of AGEs and methionine consumed while still enjoying the benefits of a low carb diet.

[niner]

Are there any studies on differences in AGE production and absorption in humans vs. rats/mice? Humans have had a long time to adapt to eating foods cooked with fire, whereas rodents haven't.

How long have we been using fire to cook food? 10,000 years? 50,000 years? I really don't know, but there is so little selection pressure from AGEs that it probably doesn't matter. AGEs don't have a significant impact on you until you are well past child-bearing age, so I doubt there has been much evolution at all to help us deal with them.

[niner]

Do we have any idea how many endogenous AGEs are produced in response to ingesting some of these foods? Particularly the foods that contain low AGEs.

Endogenous AGE production wouldn't be the same for everyone. If you have very good blood sugar control, then you could eat some pure sugar and probably not generate a huge level of AGEs, relative to an uncontrolled diabetic. However, it is certainly the case that there are two kinds of AGEs you should be thinking about. There should be a relationship between the glycemic load of a food and the amount of AGEs produced. The glycemic load can be at least roughly related to some sort of integrated increase in blood glucose. This in turn can be related in a crude way to the fraction of a specific part of hemoglobin that is glycoxidized; this is measured in the HbA1c test. HbA1c essentially tells you what your average glucose level has been over the past several months. Your AGE control strategy needs two tracks: Keep endogenous AGEs down by not going nuts with high glycemic foods, thus keeping the blood sugar low. Keep exogenous AGE consumption down by not eating high exogenous AGE foods.

[JLL]

Are there any studies on differences in AGE production and absorption in humans vs. rats/mice? Humans have had a long time to adapt to eating foods cooked with fire, whereas rodents haven't.

How long have we been using fire to cook food? 10,000 years? 50,000 years? I really don't know, but there is so little selection pressure from AGEs that it probably doesn't matter. AGEs don't have a significant impact on you until you are well past child-bearing age, so I doubt there has been much evolution at all to help us deal with them.

Much longer, some say:

http://web.archive.o...atures_fire.htm
http://www.beyondveg...terview2g.shtml

But of course, it's difficult to be sure.

[stephen_b]

If reduced dietary AGEs turn out to be the reason for increased lifespan seen in CR, as it looks like it may, it would be interesting to test the same groups of mice but to include AGE inhibitors/breakers in the experiment. Presumably AGE inhibitors would increase the lifespan of all groups until some further barrier to increased lifespan would come into play.

Interesting article here speculating about a link between glycation and mitochondrial damage, and discussing a study showing life extension in nematode worms by means of glycation reduction (PMID 18793186).

Stephen