12 replies to this topic

[abolitionist]

When humans have a choice in front of their noses : to use biotechnology to reverse aging and avoid death - they will just as they have always done historically.

Until that time, they will continue to rationalize about that which they feel powerless to prevent.

Humans are short term thinkers, and aren't likely to devote their time to something unless it pays off for them in the short term.

Therefore;

What we need is to focus on the technology, build it and the sheeple will come ;

* support competitive open source science aimed at specific short term and rewarding projects that contribute to the overall goal of ending aging

* eliminate the political barriers and focus on the hearts and minds of those who write laws that control research and funding for science as well as how it is implemented

* help to foster a culture of science and rationalism

We can't expect humans to be rational and not develope spiritual theories to comfort themselves until they have alternatives.

Technology is the key, not opinions.

Edited by abolitionist, 03 April 2009 - 06:30 PM.

[Ben Simon]

While I certainly agree that it is important to pursue technology to the best of our ability, I do not share your estimation of humankind.

If what you say is true then why are there any scientists working on the problem of aging at all? Why are there thousands of laypeople frequenting message boards like this one, voicing their support for aging research? Why does an initiative like imminst exist for that matter? Or the Mfoundation, or any other number of organisations with similar views?

If the human race is comprised merely of the 'sheeple' you so clearly think it is, why are you and I even engaged in this discussion? Shouldn't we be off drinking the cool aid somewhere?

I fail to see how mysanthropy can adequately provide the basis of policy for a movement with humanist aspirations. Yes, there are obstacles, but the lives we hope to extend are, in my opinion, posessed of greater substance and value than you seem to think.

[abolitionist]

While I certainly agree that it is important to pursue technology to the best of our ability, I do not share your estimation of humankind.

If what you say is true then why are there any scientists working on the problem of aging at all? Why are there thousands of laypeople frequenting message boards like this one, voicing their support for aging research? Why does an initiative like imminst exist for that matter? Or the Mfoundation, or any other number of organisations with similar views?

If the human race is comprised merely of the 'sheeple' you so clearly think it is, why are you and I even engaged in this discussion? Shouldn't we be off drinking the cool aid somewhere?

I fail to see how mysanthropy can adequately provide the basis of policy for a movement with humanist aspirations. Yes, there are obstacles, but the lives we hope to extend are, in my opinion, posessed of greater substance and value than you seem to think.

What percentage of the population do you think is actively engaged in supporting the use of biotechnology to end aging and suffering?

I just don't think that appealing to the intellect is very effective, look how popular the rationalizations known as religion are.

Better to simply make the technology happen through incremental steps whereby rewards are given to keep humans working towards the goal.

When the technology is there, they will all be fighting over it - but until then the masses will continue to rationalize and watch TV.

Thankfully there are rare exceptions among the populace and scientific community - like yourself.

[Brainbox]

I agree on the following practical issue:

It doesn't make sense to engage ourselves into large-scale lobbying within political and industrial institutions before any tangible results are produces by (LE) research. As a result, private financing is one of the key success factors in specific niche research like LE. And hence the existence of e.g. imminst and the M foundation to raise private funding which is essential to carry out the actions you propose.

[abolitionist]

I agree on the following practical issue:

It doesn't make sense to engage ourselves into large-scale lobbying within political and industrial institutions before any tangible results are produces by (LE) research. As a result, private financing is one of the key success factors in specific niche research like LE. And hence the existence of e.g. imminst and the M foundation to raise private funding which is essential to carry out the actions you propose.

Private funding is good, the M Prize is brilliant, but it's just not enough.

It is difficult to pitch to political institutions, I agree, and we should pitch a focus on specific aspects of aging rather than immortalism in that arena. For example : cognitive decline in the elderly which prevents them from working is a good target for governmental research funds.

Industry is much easier to pitch to, look at how much we spend on products trying to make us look younger.

It's up to the immortalists in forums like these to be the visionary leaders, entrepreneurs, and scientists who will lead humanity to develope the necessary biotechnology.

[Ben Simon]

I agree on the following practical issue:

It doesn't make sense to engage ourselves into large-scale lobbying within political and industrial institutions before any tangible results are produces by (LE) research. As a result, private financing is one of the key success factors in specific niche research like LE. And hence the existence of e.g. imminst and the M foundation to raise private funding which is essential to carry out the actions you propose.

Exactly. Now is the time for very wealthy heroes.

And it's not to say that I don't have my frustrations with public opinion often enough. I do. I just think that we can do more by raising up our fellow man than by isolating ourselves and surrendering to cynicism. Take your religion example. You seem to see religion as evidence of mankind's innate lack of intellectual honesty, and there's no doubt you'd have plenty of evidence to support such a perspective. All the same, I see religion as evidence of mankind's innate curiosity, spiritual hunger, love of the good and each other (however conflicted) and aspirations for a better tomorrow. You never know... religion may yet have a part to play in ensuring a swift and peaceful transition to a world free from the debilitation and suffering of aging. It would be a shame to deny it that opportunity by virtue of our own isolationism. Remember, anything good can become entangled with dogma - even secularism.

The 'life extension issue' is still young. Give people time. Give them opportunity. They might surprise you yet.

Edited by ben, 05 April 2009 - 03:24 PM.

[abolitionist]

I agree on the following practical issue:

It doesn't make sense to engage ourselves into large-scale lobbying within political and industrial institutions before any tangible results are produces by (LE) research. As a result, private financing is one of the key success factors in specific niche research like LE. And hence the existence of e.g. imminst and the M foundation to raise private funding which is essential to carry out the actions you propose.

Exactly. Now is the time for very wealthy heroes.

And it's not to say that I don't have my frustrations with public opinion often enough. I do. I just think that we can do more by raising up our fellow man than by isolating ourselves and surrendering to cynicism. Take your religion example. You seem to see religion as evidence of mankind's innate lack of intellectual honesty, and there's no doubt you'd have plenty of evidence to support such a perspective. All the same, I see religion as evidence of mankind's innate curiosity, spiritual hunger, love of the good and each other (however conflicted) and aspirations for a better tomorrow. You never know... religion may yet have a part to play in ensuring a swift and peaceful transition to a world free from the debilitation and suffering of aging. It would be a shame to deny it that opportunity by virtue of our own isolationism. Remember, anything good can become entangled with dogma - even secularism.

The 'life extension issue' is still young. Give people time. Give them opportunity. They might surprise you yet.

history has well defined human nature

certainly we don't want to make public campaigns of 'people are stupid', but instead focus on opportunities and putting people to work using their human motivational factors instead of their sense of long term rationalism to guide them

it's easy to get people to do something for a paycheck or for fame

but hard to get the human race to end the destruction of their planet over the long term

hard to get them to stop rationalizing about death

religions at present are anti-longevity

I don't see appealing to their religion as a viable way to get them focus on biotechnology when religion espouses metaphysical solutions

[cryofan]

history has well defined human nature

certainly we don't want to make public campaigns of 'people are stupid', but instead focus on opportunities and putting people to work using their human motivational factors instead of their sense of long term rationalism to guide them

it's easy to get people to do something for a paycheck or for fame

but hard to get the human race to end the destruction of their planet over the long term

hard to get them to stop rationalizing about death

I very much agree with this, and will add that man does not seem to be evolved to be a particularly coldly-rational creature outside of certain, somewhat limited realms.

religions at present are anti-longevity

I don't see appealing to their religion as a viable way to get them focus on biotechnology when religion espouses metaphysical solutions

Well, that would certainly be a popular statement on objectivist/secularist/libertarian types of online forums, but it goes against/ignores the evidence from the christian bible, where jesus is portrayed as an immortalist. You can argue that the religion is not following its own bible. But there is certainly a lot in the bible that advocates for immortalism. THe bible says to raise the dead, and it tells us to do that. But I am not sure that it says to use "metaphysical solutions". The bible tells us to do lots of things, like worship god in a temple. These temples are not constructed via metaphysical solutions.

[abolitionist]

history has well defined human nature

certainly we don't want to make public campaigns of 'people are stupid', but instead focus on opportunities and putting people to work using their human motivational factors instead of their sense of long term rationalism to guide them

it's easy to get people to do something for a paycheck or for fame

but hard to get the human race to end the destruction of their planet over the long term

hard to get them to stop rationalizing about death

I very much agree with this, and will add that man does not seem to be evolved to be a particularly coldly-rational creature outside of certain, somewhat limited realms.

religions at present are anti-longevity

I don't see appealing to their religion as a viable way to get them focus on biotechnology when religion espouses metaphysical solutions

Well, that would certainly be a popular statement on objectivist/secularist/libertarian types of online forums, but it goes against/ignores the evidence from the christian bible, where jesus is portrayed as an immortalist. You can argue that the religion is not following its own bible. But there is certainly a lot in the bible that advocates for immortalism. THe bible says to raise the dead, and it tells us to do that. But I am not sure that it says to use "metaphysical solutions". The bible tells us to do lots of things, like worship god in a temple. These temples are not constructed via metaphysical solutions.

getting your soul into heaven is the goal of the Abrahamic religions, for Buddhism it's the cessation of self or nirvana

these are the metaphysical solutions that they prescribe, there's certainly no mention of biotechnology to eliminate the biological causes of death and suffering

If you can find a way to pitch immortalism to Christians, Buddhists, etc.. that would be great

I'd be very impressed if you could get the Catholic church to devote money to the MPrize

[abolitionist]

"Sean

That's enough for now. You really don't know enough about religions to be debating this on our site. The tone of your comments is also unnecessarily hostile.

Most religions do in fact advocate for access to healthcare, which I think qualifies as advocacy for biotechnology. That they have not yet adopted your abolitionist goals is a narrow definition.

Please focus on a more productive contribution to the IEET's mission."

-------------

this is a reply I recieved from James Hughes telling me in effect that wouldn't allow my comments to be posted on the IEET website

James is a unitarian church goer and Buddhist...

of course he has no way of knowing how much or how little I know about religion and is playing power trips

I don't know why he says my comments are hostile and I don't think he cares to tell me

That religions advocate access to health care is a far cry from them supporting immortalism and the abolition of involuntary suffering through science

does this mean in James' mind that the Catholic church is Transhumanist?

"narrow definition" come on James.

----------

He apparently doesn't think it's productive to post the admonitions that we should;

1. focus on manipulating the motivational factors and value systems of the religious in order to get them to support science

2. forget trying to convert them to Transhumanism

I can't think of any more practical or valuable advice to give to the Transhumanist community.

It's well established that man is not rational and that we are short sighted, selfish, and magical thinkers.

I'm no different, nor are the rest of us here in these forums.

So it's smart and practical to make the science happen rather than try to wake them up.

Because once the science exists, they won't need to rationalize and make believe with religion- but to get to that point, we have to advertise biotechnology as an extension of their value systems.

Even though, ultimately, all religions (with very few exceptions) are against a scientific solution to aging and death.

[brokenportal]

Exactly. Now is the time for very wealthy heroes.

And it's not to say that I don't have my frustrations with public opinion often enough. I do. I just think that we can do more by raising up our fellow man than by isolating ourselves and surrendering to cynicism. Take your religion example. You seem to see religion as evidence of mankind's innate lack of intellectual honesty, and there's no doubt you'd have plenty of evidence to support such a perspective. All the same, I see religion as evidence of mankind's innate curiosity, spiritual hunger, love of the good and each other (however conflicted) and aspirations for a better tomorrow. You never know... religion may yet have a part to play in ensuring a swift and peaceful transition to a world free from the debilitation and suffering of aging. It would be a shame to deny it that opportunity by virtue of our own isolationism. Remember, anything good can become entangled with dogma - even secularism.

The 'life extension issue' is still young. Give people time. Give them opportunity. They might surprise you yet.

I agree. We need more people like you in on projects. Projects inspire more projects and become viral. Not only heroes of wealth, but heroes of thrift, innovation, dedication, participation, marketing, science, agi, etc...

Public opionion can be frustrating, true, but thats fine, its frustrating everywhere about most everything. Humanity has rallied through public opinion, in spite of public opinion for many different kinds of purposes to do all kinds of great things, and to combat all sorts of bad things.

I think it all boils down to this, if we meme them, they will come.

The more we meme, the higher the percentage of support in the world we will get. Since this cause makes sense, since people want health, we can be assured that we will end up with a larger percentage of support than any other good thing that has ever been undertaken in the history of humanity. I mean, think about that, this cause is unstoppable. When we meme them they will come.

I like your religion perspective. Its true, religion was a brilliant concept, a brilliant creation of man kinds imagination for its time. It qualmed death and it had the ability to instill morals into a world that was other wise a free for all in the same way that the world of wolves is. Another thing is that if its that easy to get that many people to beleive in the invisible man in the sky in order, in part, to help qualm the horrifying thoughts of impending death, then its going to be all the more easy to get them to support this cause.

People want something life size to fight for and be a part of. Religion was that, and now its becoming this cause.

Like you say, give them time. They will support this cause, I know it may surprise some, but it shouldnt. This is destiny, this is reality, this is the trend in the progress of humanity. This cant not happen.

Edited by brokenportal, 20 April 2009 - 06:03 PM.

[abolitionist]

Exactly. Now is the time for very wealthy heroes.

And it's not to say that I don't have my frustrations with public opinion often enough. I do. I just think that we can do more by raising up our fellow man than by isolating ourselves and surrendering to cynicism. Take your religion example. You seem to see religion as evidence of mankind's innate lack of intellectual honesty, and there's no doubt you'd have plenty of evidence to support such a perspective. All the same, I see religion as evidence of mankind's innate curiosity, spiritual hunger, love of the good and each other (however conflicted) and aspirations for a better tomorrow. You never know... religion may yet have a part to play in ensuring a swift and peaceful transition to a world free from the debilitation and suffering of aging. It would be a shame to deny it that opportunity by virtue of our own isolationism. Remember, anything good can become entangled with dogma - even secularism.

The 'life extension issue' is still young. Give people time. Give them opportunity. They might surprise you yet.

I agree. We need more people like you in on projects. Projects inspire more projects and become viral. Not only heroes of wealth, but heroes of thrift, innovation, dedication, participation, marketing, science, agi, etc...

Public opionion can be frustrating, true, but thats fine, its frustrating everywhere about most everything. Humanity has rallied through public opinion, in spite of public opinion for many different kinds of purposes to do all kinds of great things, and to combat all sorts of bad things.

I think it all boils down to this, if we meme them, they will come.

The more we meme, the higher the percentage of support in the world we will get. Since this cause makes sense, since people want health, we can be assured that we will end up with a larger percentage of support than any other good thing that has ever been undertaken in the history of humanity. I mean, think about that, this cause is unstoppable. When we meme them they will come.

I like your religion perspective. Its true, religion was a brilliant concept, a brilliant creation of man kinds imagination for its time. It qualmed death and it had the ability to instill morals into a world that was other wise a free for all in the same way that the world of wolves is. Another thing is that if its that easy to get that many people to beleive in the invisible man in the sky in order, in part, to help qualm the horrifying thoughts of impending death, then its going to be all the more easy to get them to support this cause.

People want something life size to fight for and be a part of. Religion was that, and now its becoming this cause.

Like you say, give them time. They will support this cause, I know it may surprise some, but it shouldnt. This is destiny, this is reality, this is the trend in the progress of humanity. This cant not happen.

Like I've said seemingly a thousand times to the misunderstood tune of 'that's isolationist'

make the science happen and they will use it

but don't expect the masses to give up their rationalizations, that goes against human nature

instead work on their motivational factors and values in order to get them to help out in the desired ways

[brokenportal]

Exactly. Now is the time for very wealthy heroes.

And it's not to say that I don't have my frustrations with public opinion often enough. I do. I just think that we can do more by raising up our fellow man than by isolating ourselves and surrendering to cynicism. Take your religion example. You seem to see religion as evidence of mankind's innate lack of intellectual honesty, and there's no doubt you'd have plenty of evidence to support such a perspective. All the same, I see religion as evidence of mankind's innate curiosity, spiritual hunger, love of the good and each other (however conflicted) and aspirations for a better tomorrow. You never know... religion may yet have a part to play in ensuring a swift and peaceful transition to a world free from the debilitation and suffering of aging. It would be a shame to deny it that opportunity by virtue of our own isolationism. Remember, anything good can become entangled with dogma - even secularism.

The 'life extension issue' is still young. Give people time. Give them opportunity. They might surprise you yet.

I agree. We need more people like you in on projects. Projects inspire more projects and become viral. Not only heroes of wealth, but heroes of thrift, innovation, dedication, participation, marketing, science, agi, etc...

Public opionion can be frustrating, true, but thats fine, its frustrating everywhere about most everything. Humanity has rallied through public opinion, in spite of public opinion for many different kinds of purposes to do all kinds of great things, and to combat all sorts of bad things.

I think it all boils down to this, if we meme them, they will come.

The more we meme, the higher the percentage of support in the world we will get. Since this cause makes sense, since people want health, we can be assured that we will end up with a larger percentage of support than any other good thing that has ever been undertaken in the history of humanity. I mean, think about that, this cause is unstoppable. When we meme them they will come.

I like your religion perspective. Its true, religion was a brilliant concept, a brilliant creation of man kinds imagination for its time. It qualmed death and it had the ability to instill morals into a world that was other wise a free for all in the same way that the world of wolves is. Another thing is that if its that easy to get that many people to beleive in the invisible man in the sky in order, in part, to help qualm the horrifying thoughts of impending death, then its going to be all the more easy to get them to support this cause.

People want something life size to fight for and be a part of. Religion was that, and now its becoming this cause.

Like you say, give them time. They will support this cause, I know it may surprise some, but it shouldnt. This is destiny, this is reality, this is the trend in the progress of humanity. This cant not happen.

Like I've said seemingly a thousand times to the misunderstood tune of 'that's isolationist'

make the science happen and they will use it

but don't expect the masses to give up their rationalizations, that goes against human nature

instead work on their motivational factors and values in order to get them to help out in the desired ways

Right, that will work too. Thats a good powerful way to draw people in. Like the Mprize for example, from what I gather, the main point of it is to give million dollar incentives for people to get mouse lifespan breakthroughs to occur so that the headlines will pretty much force people to beleive that this cause is real and happening.

Besides that though, there are a lot of other strategies that work. For example funding undergrads spreads the meme, they may not even be for it, but they want the money and they will help do the work. Then things like finding philanthropists helps. When people give money to the cause then it lends it credibility and more want to do the same.

Spreading the word works great too. These methods over lap in purpose, but all work in different ways to different degrees for different purposes too. We cant get through to them all at once, and then once we do get through to most of them, many of them still wont support this or even think about it, thats true. All causes and concepts have critics though, that fine, but there are still plenty hundreds of thousands and millions and millions of people out there that dont know about this, that are going to be glad when they do know about this and are going to want to help.

A combination of all these strategies helps us build ever growing support.