15 replies to this topic

[brokenportal]

The world wants indefinite healthy life extension. The concept is still so new though, that a lot of people dont know anything about it and probably havent given it any thought at all yet. These people a lot of us encounter that seem resistant to this, just havent heard about it yet. People want their lives. Give it time, meme like theres no tomorrow. Things are coming along. This will happen.

Im writing this because Im looking through the forums and I notice a trend of topics like, "people dont want to cure aging!" but they do. They definently do. The tides are turning.

[Luna]

Everyone wants to live ^^
No one wants hard work and sometimes living sounds like hard work :X

Many people don't want to be a problem and the concept of living long in many people's mind is a problem for other people (old and frail, need to be taken care of, population)

Ask them about staying young longer and improving the quality of their life instead of asking them if they want to live longer

Once you're 20 forever, you never want to quit!

[brokenportal]

Everyone wants to live ^^
No one wants hard work and sometimes living sounds like hard work :X

Many people don't want to be a problem and the concept of living long in many people's mind is a problem for other people (old and frail, need to be taken care of, population)

Ask them about staying young longer and improving the quality of their life instead of asking them if they want to live longer

Once you're 20 forever, you never want to quit!

Everybody loves hard work at times, because everybody loves the rewards they get at the end of it. Sometimes they like to take things as they come, sometimes they like to plan, we need more time for planning. People like to be able to take on the hard work tasks when they want to, rather than be forced to do it all at once. Hence, indefinite healthy life extension. Youll then be able to prepare for an archeological dig on another planet, rather than be forced to pack and save, and plan and arrange etc.. Youll be able to research how the universe got here and fly around and plan rather than be forced to think about it in a limited amount of time and possibly accidentally force yourself to come to a conclusion that isnt really accurate.

People wont, cant, think that old and frail people needing to be taken care of and population and stuff are a problem because theyre not. Once we inform them all, paint this picture, advertise this, get the word about the cause out fully, people wont think that. Sure, you will have some critics and some people resistant, but its like that with everything. The scope of this cause is so huge though, this is the next Era of humanity, that we will just bowl right over the critics and resistance once we pick up enough steam.

Ask them about staying young longer and improving quality, thats the same as asking them if they want to live longer. What I ask them is if they want to have indefinite healthy life extension.

[Luna]

But that sounds like a fantasy

[SiliconAnimation]

The scope of this cause is so huge though, this is the next Era of humanity, that we will just bowl right over the critics and resistance once we pick up enough steam.

That is precisely why it is more than indefinite life extension. The power to alter our course as living beings from that which we have been given by consciousless environmental factors is a very large question to handle. From this point, the idea is self-modification. How do we view ourselves in relation to the rest of the world? If at first we are given the power to grant longevity, what is next?

I think that what Immortalists and even Transhumanists face is a sort of phenomena that might be expressed as a second advent of self-awareness. Rather than when one looks into the mirror and sees the body they have been assigned by chance, and discerns their conscious relationship with it through hand-eye coordination and later into the complex network of society, one looks first at the world around them because this is the new source from which awareness must come. The change in the technology we operate from comes from the developments around us, not necessarily from within any longer.

The roles we are given in life are no longer granted by predominantly environmental factors, they come from societal factors. *Shock* suddenly, there are unknown elements within everything. The physics of the environment is an easy and tame situation to model in one's mind. The physics of society and meme construction is something of dreams.

Unfortunately there are many out there who seek to take advantage of this second awareness and sleeve this unknown world into packages labeled with memetics which are either outdated or riddled with useless world sentiments. Which is why I think you will find resistance to the suggestion of Immortality/Transhumanism firstly, and secondly because of the uncertainty factor of self-modification as a capability of societal physics rather than environmental.

Identifying new fundamentals about life, where previously more easily identifiable (food, shelter, virtues identified by Plato *which generally carry into today*, etc) which will be consistent during the singularity are essential. I don't think the nature of human behavior will favor the idea of serving a bunch of Optimus Primes (some of which are modeled after the minds of people who sought this powerful state of being so vigorously) and living eternally under a Grandfather Law, even if some choose cybernetic enhancement.

The question I'm about to ask I see as inherently a matter of two societal paradigms and the relationship between two technological paths: collectivism and individualism (that is values which are manifest through a single vessel within a larger society, or values which are manifest through multiple vessels as a whole (respectively)), biology and technology (the first of which was a development of the consciousless environment, to which we have no ruler but the inherent rights of men/women; the second which is a development of a conscious environment, where we have seen infinitely more destructive developments than the largest of storms and droughts)

So I'd like to ask you, what is the value of an individual within our present and projected future society? More specifically, do you see a role for biological life in the future which (presumably) would welcome it's longevity?

[brokenportal]

But that sounds like a fantasy

Right, because of all of life and existence is a fantasy.

Rather than when one looks into the mirror and sees the body they have been assigned by chance, and discerns their conscious relationship with it through hand-eye coordination and later into the complex network of society, one looks first at the world around them because this is the new source from which awareness must come.

Unfortunately there are many out there who seek to take advantage of this second awareness and sleeve this unknown world into packages labeled with memetics which are either outdated or riddled with useless world sentiments.

Identifying new fundamentals about life, where previously more easily identifiable (food, shelter, virtues identified by Plato *which generally carry into today*, etc)

\

So I'd like to ask you, what is the value of an individual within our present and projected future society? More specifically, do you see a role for biological life in the future which (presumably) would welcome it's longevity?

Exactly. Another way I think about this is that people perceive themselves as living in different size containers. Some people are vain and live in their bodies. Some people are really freaked out about their houses living with a shot gun next to the door and rarely venturing out. Some people live in their neighborhood, caring for their neighbors, some in their towns, some are proud of the state or province or whatever they live in, some their country, some people are people of the world, and some people dream of space and the galaxy and they live accordingly.

But really, I think, we live in the universe and all of existence, in a continuom of time that is indefinite. Once people start living that way it seems we will be better off. We will be more expedient about unlocking all of our potential.

Edited by brokenportal, 22 April 2009 - 05:06 PM.

[John_Ventureville]

I think most of the world considers indefinite lifespan as a highly unrealistic pipe dream (at least for those living today). They saw a "war on cancer" that has gone on for nearly four decades and yet still many people each year die of the disease. And aging, a much more complicated thing, is viewed by the general public as being well beyond our current abilities to cure.

I do believe within 20-30 years this perception will change as biotech, nanotech and A.I. make inroads on our biological limitations.

John

[brokenportal]

I think most of the world considers indefinite lifespan as a highly unrealistic pipe dream (at least for those living today). They saw a "war on cancer" that has gone on for nearly four decades and yet still many people each year die of the disease. And aging, a much more complicated thing, is viewed by the general public as being well beyond our current abilities to cure.

I do believe within 20-30 years this perception will change as biotech, nanotech and A.I. make inroads on our biological limitations.

John

Part of our duty in informing the world of this cause is to show them that this isnt a pipe dream, that we can and should and are uniting for this. Its different than a war on cancer in the same way that something like say, a war on gang violence was different than fighting the nazis in ww2. They wanted them both, but the one served a grand unified purpose that enveloped all, and was a part of all. You didnt have to look for your brothers and sisters in arms because it was every single one of you. A unified cause is an incredibly powerful thing.

We will inform the world. Its only a matter of when. The faster we go now, the faster we can get there. Some of us have some mid range plans in development to plot out how we might get there, to informing the whole world.

[Teixeira]

Everyone wants to live ^^
No one wants hard work and sometimes living sounds like hard work :X

Many people don't want to be a problem and the concept of living long in many people's mind is a problem for other people (old and frail, need to be taken care of, population)

Ask them about staying young longer and improving the quality of their life instead of asking them if they want to live longer

Once you're 20 forever, you never want to quit!

Everybody loves hard work at times, because everybody loves the rewards they get at the end of it. Sometimes they like to take things as they come, sometimes they like to plan, we need more time for planning. People like to be able to take on the hard work tasks when they want to, rather than be forced to do it all at once. Hence, indefinite healthy life extension. Youll then be able to prepare for an archeological dig on another planet, rather than be forced to pack and save, and plan and arrange etc.. Youll be able to research how the universe got here and fly around and plan rather than be forced to think about it in a limited amount of time and possibly accidentally force yourself to come to a conclusion that isnt really accurate.

People wont, cant, think that old and frail people needing to be taken care of and population and stuff are a problem because theyre not. Once we inform them all, paint this picture, advertise this, get the word about the cause out fully, people wont think that. Sure, you will have some critics and some people resistant, but its like that with everything. The scope of this cause is so huge though, this is the next Era of humanity, that we will just bowl right over the critics and resistance once we pick up enough steam.

Ask them about staying young longer and improving quality, thats the same as asking them if they want to live longer. What I ask them is if they want to have indefinite healthy life extension.

Just "healthy"? You can get something far better than just healthy! Besides an immortal body needs and deserves more than that because those are conditions to be able to face immortality (it´s a long time you know, you need a perfect body to face that kind of time).

[brokenportal]

Just "healthy"? You can get something far better than just healthy! Besides an immortal body needs and deserves more than that because those are conditions to be able to face immortality (it´s a long time you know, you need a perfect body to face that kind of time).

Healthy will do the trick for now. We can potentially upload, add exoskeletons or whatever later if it comes about.

[Teixeira]

Just "healthy"? You can get something far better than just healthy! Besides an immortal body needs and deserves more than that because those are conditions to be able to face immortality (it´s a long time you know, you need a perfect body to face that kind of time).

Healthy will do the trick for now. We can potentially upload, add exoskeletons or whatever later if it comes about.

The question is: is that possible? I´m talking about two possibilities: in the first one we achieve immortality step by step along the years; in the second one we get there in two seconds with all the "equipment" and "full extras"!! Just like that! What do you think about it?
Teixeira

[brokenportal]

The question is: is that possible? I´m talking about two possibilities: in the first one we achieve immortality step by step along the years; in the second one we get there in two seconds with all the "equipment" and "full extras"!! Just like that! What do you think about it?
Teixeira

Is it possible?

This reminds me of quotes like, "If Columbus had an advisory committee he would probably still be at the dock." "Neccessity is the mother of invention." "A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for."

Like Kennedy said in his Rice Stadium speech about going to the moon.
"Many years ago the great British explorer George Mallory, who was to die on Mount Everest, was asked why did he want to climb it. He said, 'Because it is there.' Well, space is there, and we're going to climb it, and the moon and the planets are there, and new hopes for knowledge and peace are there. And, therefore, as we set sail we ask God's blessing on the most hazardous and dangerous and greatest adventure on which man has ever embarked."

We choose to research our biologies to work to make our cells live on indefinitely because the opportunity is there. It doesnt have as much to do with "possible" or not as it has to do with other things. Whether its there or not, we're going there, and we intend to go there with everything this world has got.

"Most of the things worth doing in this world have been declared impossible before they were done." -Louis Brandeis

[Panther]

Portal,


I've asked around. From strangers to people closer. The consensus seems the same. Those who do not already have concepts on life-extension are receptive. Those with formed concepts built on the assumption that there is no possibility of avoiding death, they are most often resigned to die. They expect to die within the usual lifespan and so offer no resistance. They've.. lain down. They've plotted and planned the most comfortable method of death. Laissez-faire lives, but thoroughly understandable when one in unaware of other options. And unfortunately, most people are incapable of changing their minds quickly, no matter how evidently they may be wrong. So, again, information must be spread. But that's a tricky game. Information given must be exact to produce the desired results.



Silicon,


The world is mostly changed by individuals, not the masses. While those masses certainly have influence on the whole, they're rarely motivated to change the world. When life-extension becomes a visible possibility however, I imagine most people will catch on very quickly. People can't believe what they don't understand.

As to your second question, I do not understand it. You will have to clarify.

[Nimbus]

Just "healthy"? You can get something far better than just healthy! Besides an immortal body needs and deserves more than that because those are conditions to be able to face immortality (it´s a long time you know, you need a perfect body to face that kind of time).

Why? Just replace what wears out.

[brokenportal]

Thats right, spread the information and slowly and incrementally it will imbue the minds of the masses. They dont support this yet because they havent had the opportunity to think about it yet.

As for replacing what wears out, the Russia 2045 movement seeks to replace the biological body with a cyborg body. This notion has been wearing on me more and more over time, until I realize now, with all of the minute details to be worked out in projects like SENS and the evolutionary approach, why not just replace much of that biology with artificial parts? Popular Science has a great new article on artificial hearts for example. They use them in calfs and some humans. The technology for this kind of stuff is getting better and better. The more I think about it, the more an artificial body seems to be a major contender for developing indefinite life.

On the subject of hearts, these are continuous flow, no pulse. They say, "Just as human flight wasn't possible until people gave up the idea of imitating birds, permanently replacing the most vital of organs may not be possible without ridding our minds of the hearts telltale beat." I thought that was a great insight. It reminds me of WILT, where the notion of taking telomerase out and replacing cells with new stem cells, with fresh telomeres, seemed too radical to many. But like they are saying here, it seems that sometimes to get to the solutions we have to get outside of the box.

This stuff is all so new, we have to get on with informing them now so they can begin thinking about it. It's a struggle, but its one worth making.

[Mind]

I think this is the first time I viewed this thread and I must say bravo to SiliconAnimation on the eloquent post.

Silicon hit on one of the main points of resistance to indefinite life extension. We are not really talking about indefinite life extension in isolation but radical transformation of who we are as individuals and who we are as a species. If it was just the case of popping a pill and reversing all the ravages of aging, there would be widespread acceptance. Most people could grasp and deal with the societal changes that would come about from having everyone looking like they are young and in perfect health. Most human imaginations can grasp this. It only takes a little more thinking to realize that the same technology that will grant indefinite biological life extension, will also grant the possibility of transformation. Why remain a flesh-and-blood human when you could "upgrade". This is where most of society becomes resistant to the idea. Change is challenging. Change is difficult and disruptive. We cannot imagine where this transformation will lead. Many people would rather die than find out.