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Piracetam weirdness


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#1 zeribar

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Posted 30 April 2009 - 11:39 PM


About two months ago I started experimenting with Piracetam, having read good things about it here. The results were very promising at first, but the promise was not fulfilled.

I ordered my Piracetam from Cognitive Nutrition (800mg capsules). The first day I took 3200mg (two pills, then another two after an hour or so, when I felt no effect). The results were amazing. I had to read some academic stuff for a class, and I found myself energized and interested to a degree that was almost unfamiliar to me. This lasted for most of the day. The following few days I repeated the dosage with similar effects, although the intensity began to taper off pretty quickly. Still, I was much more energetic, sharp, and sociable than I usually am (I tend to be lazy and somewhat apathetic), so I was loving it. I didn't supplement with choline at first, but after a few days added DMAE and later Alpha-GPC (300-600mg a day). I have to say neither of these made any difference that I could see.

So far, so good. After about two weeks, though, came the catch: I started suffering from monstrous insomnia. I'd wake up every night around 4AM and not be able to sleep until morning. This happened every night for a week. (I've had insomnia in the past, but never as bad as this.) During the day the effects of the Piracetam were still there, but not nearly as much as at first, and not enough to compensate for my increasing sleep deprivation. After a week of this I had enough and dropped everything I was taking. This still wasn't enough to get me to sleep again, so I started taking 5-HTP, which does the job quite well.

So lately I figured, well, if 5-HTP helps me sleep, and Piracetam was pretty good apart from the insomnia, maybe I could take both and get the best of both worlds. But it doesn't work - I don't get the same effect from Piracetam anymore. I've tried several times with various dosages; mostly I felt no effect at all, except once when I took 2400mg (less than my old daily dose) with 300mg Alpha-GPC and got a rather undesirable feeling of spaciness, as if my brain was only half working or working in slow motion - not what you want in a cognitive enhancer at all.

So now I'm puzzled. Why is Piracetam so hit-or-miss? If I could consistently get the effect I got at first, that would be lovely, but if I have to run the risk of getting a weird spacey trip instead, not to mention raging insomnia, then no thanks. Varying the dosage or the Piracetam/choline ratio doesn't seem to help, since the same dose can have completely different effects or none at all. Maybe the initial effectiveness was just placebo, but then I can't see why it would go away after a few days or weeks - if Piracetam was effective because I believed it would be, surely it should have continued to be effective later, when I had even more reason to believe it would be?

Thoughts and suggestions?

#2 yowza

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Posted 01 May 2009 - 07:18 AM

I could be wrong but I don't think Piracetam works well with 5HTP.

One (out of a number) of Piracetam's mode of actions seems to work through improving cholinergic function in some way (see following link under "Mechanism of Action" heading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracetam). This is also why many people combine Piracetam with cholinergic supplements.


If your taking a good enough amount of 5HT to increase serotonin (or your serotonin producing cells in your brain are efficiently producing serotonin without a need for a high amount of 5HTP) then there is more serotonin being pumped out into the synaptic cleff (the area between a sending and receiving nueron). Once out in the synaptic cleff some of the serotonin will be re-uptaked (by the sending nueron) and some of the serotonin will bind to various type of serotonin based receptors (receiving nueron). Amongst the types of serotonin receptors in the brain, 1 of these types (the 5HT3 receptor) seems to have an antagonistic effect on acetylcholine when Serotonin binds to the 5ht3 receptor. Why the 5ht3 receptor has this function I don't know (I'm no expert). However, I'm guessing it's some sort of neuromodulatory role (the brain has tons of checks and balances all over the place).

With 5htp being the last step in the biochemical pathway towards producing serotonin (5HT), some metabolic steps are bypassed. 5htp is no drug (you obviously still need to convert it to serotonin assuming that you absorb the 5ht properly thru the intestine and it passes the blood brain barrier), however, assuming your body produces serotonin properly, you could still throw your serotonin balance up a bit higher than it normally would be (a good thing if someone has low serotonin). If you have more serotonin, at least some of it will bind to the 5ht3 receptor.

Edited by yowza, 01 May 2009 - 07:24 AM.


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#3 tlm884

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Posted 01 May 2009 - 08:07 AM

I would drop the 5HTP and look at other things for insomnia such as magnesium or taurine. Possibly the occasional phenibut?

#4 zeribar

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Posted 02 May 2009 - 04:26 PM

Interesting about 5HTP counteracting Piracetam... I've never tried Taurine, but maybe I'll experiment with it in the future (since I only have a week or two's worth of 5HTP left anyway).

What about the drop-off/inconsistency of Piracetam's effects, though (even without 5HTP)? Has anyone else experienced this?

#5 yowza

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Posted 02 May 2009 - 11:20 PM

I can't really provide a specific reply to that but hopefully will be able to put things in perspective perhaps?


Piracetam, like most racetams, seem to have a roundabout mode of action usually described as "modulation" to signify the indirect mechanism in which it has an effect on something. The wiki link I posted above gives some idea that it's not just direct cholinergic modulation that behind the mechanism of piracetam. I just mentioned the cholinergic vs. serotonin thing since that seems to be the most glaringly obvious reason behind 5HTP's interference behind the effect of piracetam.

However, back to the main point (term "Modulation" being used to describe some of the specific impacts behind this compound). This is a far out/wacky theory that I'm just throwing out, but I'm thinking that the either the bloodflow to the brain or the electrophysiological state of the human brain could potentiate (or not potentiate) the effects of piracetam. Afterall, bloodflow and electrophysiology are 2 prominant factors that effect our state of brain activity on a daily basis so making this general assumption isn't too far out. Therefore, the conclusion could be to potentiate these 2 different venues (note this is just a simplistic outlook trying to figure out why human biochemistry/performance can vary on a day to day basis; this of course doesn't include actual anatomy, endocrine+nervous system functioning, ect.):

-exercise to increase bloodflow to the brain (not too mention becoming more metabolically sufficient), which of course leads to a greater electrical state
-otherwise, music or nuerofeedback training to potentiate electrophysiology, which leads to increased bloodflow

Potentiating individual variances could play a huge part in potentiating the response to a nootropic that works in a more roundabout way as opposed to causing direct disruptions/alterations (like some pharmaceutical drugs do).


Otherwise, besides the stuff mentioned above, digestion/absorption/transport can probably play a big factor in terms of one responds on a daily basis.

#6 Guacamolium

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Posted 02 May 2009 - 11:25 PM

Phenibut works great for sleep continuity - try that.

#7 zeribar

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Posted 03 May 2009 - 03:03 AM

This is a far out/wacky theory that I'm just throwing out, but I'm thinking that the either the bloodflow to the brain or the electrophysiological state of the human brain could potentiate (or not potentiate) the effects of piracetam. Afterall, bloodflow and electrophysiology are 2 prominant factors that effect our state of brain activity on a daily basis so making this general assumption isn't too far out. Therefore, the conclusion could be to potentiate these 2 different venues (note this is just a simplistic outlook trying to figure out why human biochemistry/performance can vary on a day to day basis; this of course doesn't include actual anatomy, endocrine+nervous system functioning, ect.):

-exercise to increase bloodflow to the brain (not too mention becoming more metabolically sufficient), which of course leads to a greater electrical state
-otherwise, music or nuerofeedback training to potentiate electrophysiology, which leads to increased bloodflow


Fascinating. Thanks, yowza! I'll keep all that in mind, when and if I try Piracetam again.

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#8 yowza

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Posted 03 May 2009 - 04:56 AM

Fascinating. Thanks, yowza! I'll keep all that in mind, when and if I try Piracetam again.


Anytime!

The roundabout ways that Piracetam works ("modulatory" aspect used to change biochemistry as opposed to a more direct mechanism) seems to suggest that there could be some up/down variance in terms of how one feels the nootropic effect due to certain parts of an individuals biochemistry that can change on a daily basis (such as electrical and bloodflow aspects).

This is why piracetam's so popular since you can potentiate the effect even further based on your state of mind.




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