30 replies to this topic

[kilgoretrout]

OK all you smarty-pants! What is known from experience, research, and hypothesizing about this stuff? Are the claims about this molecule fairly true?

Noticed it at while searching for things containing 1,3,dimethylamine, found it in the prouct Phenadrine... a combination of a highly absorbable form Tyrosine to regenerate catecholamines with 3 different stimulants working via varied biochemical pathways which looks pretty excellent to me.

As a fan in general of the phenethylamine ring and its countless varied and useful forms, this has me instantly obsessed with researching it... here's the initial info from a page on the pill...
http://www.nutraplan...0-capsules.html

N-Methyl-Beta-Methylphenylethylamine HCL

This is a truly unique and novel compound. Chances are you are familiar with the pathways of Beta-Phenylethylamine (PEA). You may also be familiar with N-Methyl-Beta-Phenylethylamine HCL. Yet, do not confuse N-Methyl-Beta-Phenylethylamine HCL with our much more potent agent, N-Methyl-Beta-Methylphenylethylamine HCL with several methyl groups that render it super stable and remorselessly effective. This novel agent works! That simple!

A remarkable compound, even in its pure form, Beta-Phenylethylamine (PEA), a catecholamine precursor and nutrient found in chocolate, is known to be a very clean stimulant with the remarkable ability to achieve central-nervous-system stimulation without producing nervousness or the jittery feeling associated with other stimulants. Like norepinephrine, the body's most potent endogenous fat-burning hormone, PEA acts on alpha-receptors in the brain, triggering the release of the "feel-good" hormone, dopamine (3,4-dihydroxy-phenethylamine) in neural cells. PEA is also responsible for chocolate's effect on mood, sense of satiety, reduced food cravings, mild euphoria, as well as increased metabolic rate (by modulating thyroid function). Also known as a neuromodulator, PEA promotes mental alertness, focus and concentration. By regulating catecholamines such as epinephrine (adrenaline) and norepinephrine (noradrenaline) that act on hormone-sensitive lipase, the rate-limiting enzyme in the mobilization of fatty tissue from storage cites, PEA elevates the metabolic rate, ultimately leading to increased fat burning. Unfortunately, PEA is rapidly metabolised in the body by type B monoamine oxidase and has a limited ability to cross the blood-brain barrier, thus preventing it from unleashing its full effects. The challenge was to obtain a form of PEA with a type B monoamine-oxidase inhibitor property. N-Methyl-Beta-Phenylethylamine HCL is an N-Methyl derivative of Beta-Phenylethylamine. This methylated form of PEA is dramatically more potent than pure PEA, and takes PEA's CNS stimulation and fat-burning several notches higher. While we could have used this compound, we decided to aim still higher. Now enters N-Methyl-Beta-Methylphenylethylamine HCL. This novel and carefully engineered unique agent represents the most potent form of PEA ever developed. It is not an N-Methyl derivative of N-Methyl-Beta-Phenylethylamine HCL, rather an N-Methyl derivative of methylated Beta-Phenylethylamine HCL! It is like "double methylation"! Technically speaking, we astronomically boosted the pharmacokinetic value of PEA! This "double methylated" form unites the finest properties of PEA such as easily crossing the blood-brain barrier, intensifying fat-burning due to optimised beta-receptor agonism while demonstrating unprecedented stability to B monoamine oxidation, implying a longer-lasting and more intensive overall action.

Edited by kilgoretrout, 20 July 2009 - 03:38 AM.

[StrangeAeons]

sounds like a lot of sales crap to me. And what are "alpha" receptors? Are they referring to CNS alpha andrenergic activity? I would be extremely cautious. Show me some literature on the stuff, not the marketing.

[VespeneGas]

sounds like you're on a stim reviewing a stim. I was expecting ncbi.nlm.nih.gov stuff. Please be cautious ingesting novel stimulants due to the risk of death.

My curiosity, however, is piqued.

Edit: followed the link, you copypasta'd the advertisement directly to imminst. This right after you criticized revgen's 'questionable' marketing practices. Fail.

Edited by VespeneGas, 20 July 2009 - 06:43 AM.

[kilgoretrout]

sounds like you're on a stim reviewing a stim. I was expecting ncbi.nlm.nih.gov stuff. Please be cautious ingesting novel stimulants due to the risk of death.

My curiosity, however, is piqued.

Edit: followed the link, you copypasta'd the advertisement directly to imminst. This right after you criticized revgen's 'questionable' marketing practices. Fail.

"Fail."??? Fail what? What in the world is that incredibly bitchy and arrogant remark supposed to mean?

"sounds like you're on a stim"? How, precisely, does the post sound like that? What a load of crap. I really doubt you were "expecting ncbi.nlm.nih.gov stuff." Obviously the only reason for your post is to bitch about me.

Big difference - I'm not president of a company selling expensive bottles of the substance, hoping to increase my sales and income via posting to a discussion group full of people known to already be fascinated by the sort of claims the product makes; just an interested potential user seeing if anyone knows anything about it.

I say right up front that I heard about it on a web page for a commercial supplement "PRODUCT", dont I? And the link makes sure that is clear.

Anyway, yea, there is no actual science or research to be found. It sure does sound like marketing fluff...of course it does, its came out of a advertisemet for the product, like I said. That's exactly why I posted it... to see if anyone here with biochemistry knowledge would like to refute or at least dissect it a little.

I mean it all sounds plausable, but what the hell do I know, I'm a software engineer, not a chemistry professor.

Edited by kilgoretrout, 20 July 2009 - 03:09 PM.

[StrangeAeons]

The only thing a Google search turns up is more ads and a thread on M&M

The most relevant part is a reference to Alexander Shulgin, the king of PEA's and other psychoactive compounds.

Definitely not a new compound. Shulgin actually speculated that it would be of little use since the beta carbon does little to increase its bioavailability. Adding a methyl to the alpha carbon, however (as in amphetamine), decreases its molecular amphipathism (increased BBB transduction), and decreases its ability to be oxidized.

On the other hand, another poster questions the source of this comment. Not owning his literature, I have no reference for this; but if you were going to find mention of this stim, PIHKAL and TIHKAL would be the places to look.

[kilgoretrout]

The only thing a Google search turns up is more ads and a thread on M&M

The most relevant part is a reference to Alexander Shulgin, the king of PEA's and other psychoactive compounds.


On the other hand, another poster questions the source of this comment. Not owning his literature, I have no reference for this; but if you were going to find mention of this stim, PIHKAL and TIHKAL would be the places to look.

Thanks Mr. Strange. Yea I already came up with that M&M thread as well and was disappointed, but not surprised, at the lack of a real technical critique.

It's definitely not it PIHKAL or TIHKAL, at least not listed under this chemical name, or that would have turned up in google., 100% guranteed.

The post by IronFist in that M&M thread gave me a glimmer of hope some technical discussion and analysis of that marketing technobabble was about to get underway, but then fizzled. I guess this speculation by Shulgin that is refered to is somewhere buried deep in PIHKAL, as he is musing about adding or subtracting this or that to his beautiful childrens' genetic codes. But how that would relate to this is over my head.

Well, let's see, since it is back a little in the M&M thread, in order to possibly get something started, I'll reproduce it here... perhaps one of our resident smarty-pants (I use the term in only reverence and adoration, I assure you :-) can tell if this makes any technical sense, such as it is:

Posted by "IronFist" in http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=35163 :
Definitely not a new compound. Shulgin actually speculated that it would be of little use since the beta carbon does little to increase its bioavailability. Adding a methyl to the alpha carbon, however (as in amphetamine), decreases its molecular amphipathism (increased BBB transduction), and decreases its ability to be oxidized

Edited by kilgoretrout, 20 July 2009 - 04:05 PM.

[pheonix]

Illegal, positional isomer of alpha-ethyl phenethylamine and methamphetamine. That you have also not changed any functional group (still a secondary amine) in it despite structural rearrangement clearly falls under the grounds of persecution of a positional isomer.

If someone is selling this stuff, I would recommend they contact a lawyer immediately as they could be facing years to life in a federal prison for the sales of such a compound for human consumption or otherwise (the penalties are the same as selling methamphetamine itself).

Unless specifically excepted or unless listed in another schedule, any material, compound, mixture, or preparation which contains any quantity of the following substances having a stimulant effect on the central nervous system:
...
(2) Methamphetamine, its salts, isomers, and salts of its isomers
1105
...

Methamphetamine (Schedule II)

5 - 49 gms pure or 50 - 499 gms mixture

First Offense:

Not less than 5 yrs, and not more than 40 yrs. If death or serious injury, not less than 20 or more than life. Fine of not more than $2 million if an individual, $5 million if not an individual

Second Offense: Not less than 10 yrs, and not more than life. If death or serious injury, life imprisonment. Fine of not more than $4 million if an individual, $10 million if not an individual

50 gms or more pure or 500 gms or more mixture

First Offense:

Not less than 10 yrs, and not more than life. If death or serious injury, not less than 20 or more than life. Fine of not more than $4 million if an individual, $10 million if not an individual.

Second Offense: Not less than 20 yrs, and not more than life. If death or serious injury, life imprisonment. Fine of not more than $8 million if an individual, $20 million if not an individual.

2 or More Prior Offenses: Life imprisonment

Edited by pheonix, 20 July 2009 - 04:55 PM.

[kilgoretrout]

Illegal, positional isomer of alpha-ethyl phenethylamine and methamphetamine. That you have also not changed any functional group (still a secondary amine) in it despite structural rearrangement clearly falls under the grounds of persecution of a positional isomer.

If someone is selling this stuff, I would recommend they contact a lawyer immediately.

"Persecution"? English your 2nd language? Or a Freudian slip, perhaps.

It was mentioned right off the bat that this was found on a page advertising a supplement already for sale and on the shelves. For sale at many many places. I should have thought the DEA would have noticed by now, as it has been a couple years. So I guess you are saying the DEA are a bunch of dolts?

And if it really is "almost-meth" as you alledge, I would have thought word would have gotten around by now to the recreational drug using crowd (those horrible demons who want only pure evil infecting everthing everywhere, corrupting the morals of our youth!) would have sucked all of it off the shelves faster than they can make it, which does not seem to be happening. So something must be amiss in your understanding of either chemistry or the law or both.

And I should have thought that the lawyers for whoever makes "Phenadrine" capsules would have nixed this used of this molecule. Are you saying they are idiots, and should have their law degrees revoked, and APS their money back?

Do you really think they are putting "near-meth" in their pills.. AND SCREAMING IT ON THE LABEL, as well as their marketing material? Usually if this is being done, they claim some herbal magic and try to HIDE the illegal things they add to give it bang.

So, I challenge your assertion. The chemistry of the "analogue act" is more complex than it may seem on the surface, and in fact, there has been testimony of chemistry scholars in at least one federal court case about analogues that said the language in the analogue bill is insipidly vague and meaningless, and that it should be thrown out. A case that the government LOST (but is now in appeal) and where the jury agreed with the expert that the law is scientifically vague in its technical language and thus meaningless and uncononstitutional. If this molecule were an illegal analogue, I say it would not be present in the retail product of a significant company and still be for sale.

What is your background? How could you have gotten here and not understood from the post above that this was already in widely sold products totally above-board, as if someone pointed you at it simply due to matching of a substring on some watch-list? ("phenethylamine" perhaps?)

And what's the matter, how come you don't CALL A LAWYER YOURSELF if you are so up in arms about it? There are so many strange things about your post. I love how you take special care to be sure and reference the penalties and where, exactly, they will be served. Persecutorial er, pardon me, prosecutorial types just LOVE to go on and on about the horrible penalties, believing they are doing some great public service by "scaring the children away". Almost as if you were a narc of some kind assigned to monitor discussion groups like these, with just enough chemistry knowledge to be dangerous, who is really just a resentful anti-pleasure religious prig. Almost as if you are really just trying to scare people away from even discussing this compound.

Edited by kilgoretrout, 20 July 2009 - 05:03 PM.

[pheonix]

"Persecution"???

Do you read/write english very well? It was mentioned right off the bat that this was found on a page advertising a supplement already for sale and on the shelves. For sale at many many places. I should have thought the DEA would have noticed by now, as it has been a couple years. So I guess you are saying the DEA are a bunch of dolts?

And if it really is "almost-meth" as you alledge, I would have thought word would have gotten around by now to the recreational drug using crowd (those horrible demons who want only pure evil infecting everthing everywhere, corrupting the morals of our youth!)

I should have thought that the lawyers for whoever makes "Phenadrine" capsules would have nixed this used of this molecule. Are you saying they are idiots, and should have their law degrees revoked, and APS their money back?

Do you have any proof there are even lawyers involved? Have you called the companies?

Do you really think they are putting "near-meth" in their pills.. AND SCREAMING IT ON THE LABEL, as well as their marketing material? Usually if this is being done, they claim some herbal magic and try to HIDE the illegal things they add to give it bang.

I challenge your assertion. The chemistry of the "analogue act" is more complex than it may seem on the surface, and in fact, there has been testimony of chemistry scholars IN COURT CASES about analogues that says the language in the analogue bill is insipidly vague and meaningless, and that it should be thrown out. Cases that the government has LOST and where the jury agreed with the expert that the law is scientifically vague in its technical language and thus meaningless and uncononstitutional.

This is not part of the Analogue Act, it's part of the original Controlled Substances Act.
You may read the DEA's recent redefinition of positional isomer here: http://www.scribd.co...omer-definition

What is your background? How could you have gotten here and not understood from the post above that this was already in widely sold products totally above-board, as if someone pointed you at it simply due to matching of a substring on some watch-list? ("phenethylamine" perhaps?)

I am a chemist.

And what's the matter, how come you don't CALL A LAWYER YOURSELF if you are so up in arms about it? There are so many strange things about your post. I love how you take special care to be sure and reference the penalties and where they will be served. Almost as if you were a narc of some kind assigned to monitor discussion groups like these, with just enough chemistry knowledge to be dangerous, who is really just a resentful anti-pleasure religious prig. Almost as if you are really just trying to scare people away from even discussing this compound.

Because I don't care. But I also don't manufacture and sell this stuff. I am not a LEO, either.

[kilgoretrout]

Oh that does it. Now you're actually pounding the table, posting the details of the federal drug statute penalites? No question you are some sort of cop, trying to scare people here away from discussing something that you personally do not feel they ought to be discussing.

Go stand outside corporate headquarters of NutraPlanet and/or APS and holler and wave your fist in the air. I or this board do not manufacture, sell, or advocate this molecule, and are just seeking information about it.

I am almost certain your claims are wrong, or someone would have turned in the places making & selling this stuf some time ago.

Edited by kilgoretrout, 20 July 2009 - 05:47 PM.

[kilgoretrout]

I am a chemist.
...
Because I don't care.

I don't believe you are a chemist, who can't spell and who takes the time to post frightening quotes from anti-drug law to a little supplement discussion board.

If you didn't care you would not have bothered sayng anything about it.

But hey, if you are right, thanks alot for spilling the beans!

Edited by kilgoretrout, 20 July 2009 - 06:04 PM.

[FunkOdyssey]

Please take it down a notch or two -- you're flipping out over nothing.

[zomfg]

Anger and ignorance mix in a wonderful manner in you, kilgore. I actually get a fight-or-flight response every time I read one of your posts, even though I'm not involved in the discussion. I feel as if I'm being yelled at through the screen.

Your delusional rant about phoenix being an agent of law enforcement is based on what, 5 lines of text, in none of which the poster advised against ingesting or purchasing the compound? The poster has explicitly said that he doesn't care about the legal status of the drug. You asked about it, and he answered.

Or were you looking for "omfg it gave me crisp mental focus with no side effects through its action at alpha receptors and stuff!!1" ?

Oh, and someone so keen to hammer relentlessly on one spelling error should probably keep the use of "assinine" and "viscitudes" to a minimum, lest we start questioning whether you're REALLY a software engineer.

[StrangeAeons]

I don't think it's very plausible that this substance is illegal while having been on the market so long, or at the very least I'm inclined to believe that even if it may technically meet certain legal criteria for a "positional isomer" that it likely has little to no illicit/recreational properties; if it did, word would get out, sales would spike, and eventually somebody would shut it down.
At the same time I think the reaction to that post was decidedly over the top and borderline paranoid. I don't think phoenix is a cop, and I won't explicitly contradict his claim that he is a chemist; even a chemist can absentmindedly mistake "persecution" for "prosecution". He isn't claiming to be an English Lit professor.

[kilgoretrout]

Anger and ignorance mix in a wonderful manner in you, kilgore. I actually get a fight-or-flight response every time I read one of your posts, even though I'm not involved in the discussion. I feel as if I'm being yelled at through the screen.

Your delusional rant about phoenix being an agent of law enforcement is based on what, 5 lines of text, in none of which the poster advised against ingesting or purchasing the compound? The poster has explicitly said that he doesn't care about the legal status of the drug. You asked about it, and he answered.

Or were you looking for "omfg it gave me crisp mental focus with no side effects through its action at alpha receptors and stuff!!1" ?

Oh, and someone so keen to hammer relentlessly on one spelling error should probably keep the use of "assinine" and "viscitudes" to a minimum, lest we start questioning whether you're REALLY a software engineer.

Ah, well, we are not always such good spellers while typing up a good rant. Other times there is time to run spell-check!

Actually, I see now that I did make an error, but my edit window had lapsed. I thought he was saying someone should call a lawyer in order to file criminal prosecution charges against the makers of phenadrine. Which was incorrect.

He suggesed THEY call a lawyer because they are in his belief actually selling a scheduled drug unintentionally. and need someone to accurately determine that for them.

But I thought that he had decided it must be illegal speed, and was saying someone ought to call the cops on them, and was making some moralistic paternalistic posting to this group about horrible drug law penalties.

Naurally that led to a knee-jerk reaction that he ought to be roundly ridiculed.

So, sorry about that phoenix. But I still think you must be wrong about the substance. I am in agreement with StrangeAeon, that if it were in such direct violation of the CSA, it would have been taken off the market a long time ago.

It is so widely available, just google "Phenadrine" to see the thousands of places that sell it.

Edited by kilgoretrout, 20 July 2009 - 06:36 PM.

[pheonix]

This thread is amazing.

I'm just warning that the people selling this should be careful. If -- God forbid -- someone dies after ingesting this compound, which is reasonably probable if enough people begin consuming it, and their friends and family go on a legal tirade about how their friend/family member was killed by this drug (even if it wasn't the root cause of the death), the consequences could be dire for the manufacturer.

Whatever you put in your body is your own business. Whatever you sell to any given individual with internet access in public becomes the business of many persons.

Please excuse my improper usage of persecution (unless you're not a fan of the drug war, in which case I guess you could consider it proper).

Edited by pheonix, 20 July 2009 - 06:22 PM.

[StrangeAeons]

It's fair to say that there are enough other stimulants in this cocktail that if somebody were going to die it would be a product of cumulative cardiac stress from all the stims, and that person would likely have a sensitivity or preexisting condition. I don't know enough chemistry to say yea or nay to the stuff being illegal or matching up to its purported effects, but I can say that it is just a stimulant. There are plenty of other stimulants around, and that stimulants are decidedly not the most important class of supplements there is; they are entirely about short-term gain as are most bodybuilding supplements (albeit contingent upon which bodybuilder you ask).
In other words: it's not worth raising a huge fuss over. Just forget the stuff, forget the topic, forget all of it. It's not worth getting worked up over.

[kilgoretrout]

Whatever you sell to any given individual with internet access in public becomes the business of many persons.

Sorry, different topic altogether, but I must say:

Personal business transactions with or without the internet are EXTREMELY private affairs... they are most certainly NOT public business. Why do you think so much actual business is done on the net through encryption? Why are the specifics of people's bank accounts and business transactions considered to be among the most private data that exist, considered nearly sacrosanct, and are handled with EXTREME (and expensive) measures by businesses?

Most Americans would be horrified at the thought that government agents were secretly watching their private business and banking transactions without cause.

Edited by kilgoretrout, 20 July 2009 - 06:51 PM.

[kilgoretrout]

It's fair to say that there are enough other stimulants in this cocktail that if somebody were going to die it would be a product of cumulative cardiac stress from all the stims, and that person would likely have a sensitivity or preexisting condition. I don't know enough chemistry to say yea or nay to the stuff being illegal or matching up to its purported effects, but I can say that it is just a stimulant. There are plenty of other stimulants around, and that stimulants are decidedly not the most important class of supplements there is; they are entirely about short-term gain as are most bodybuilding supplements (albeit contingent upon which bodybuilder you ask).
In other words: it's not worth raising a huge fuss over. Just forget the stuff, forget the topic, forget all of it. It's not worth getting worked up over.

Hey, I was just trying to get some technical interpretation of the claims, and decide if there was merit in this molecule.

Stimulants may in fact well be "the most important class of supplements" for someone with ADD like myself. Clean stimulants with as little effect on the cardio system as possible can be essential in such cases, making the difference between a fractured, unfocused, confused existence...and one that is clear-headed and focused, where the possibility of happiness exists.

Caffeine is very ANTI-focus and jittery and peripheral, though I still like it in moderate doses. Prescription meds - well not only is it a collosal waste of time, as well as money, but I find having to visit a "professional psychiatrist" once a month to get his personal OK to be graciously permitted by him and the government to buy N, and not one more or one less, doses of some form of amphetamine to be a repulsive burden.

Hence the search for effective "outside the boundaries" compounds like this can be pretty important.

And I suppose at the end of the day, no matter how many words one has processed, the only way to really find out what something is like is to try it. So once I have I will post a review... though it sure would be nice to see what the pure thing is like without all that other stuff mixed in.

[yowza]

PEA vs. N-Methyl-Beta-Methylphenylethylamine HCL:
The regular dosage for PEA seems to vary...
There's no real official daily value established for PEA so the number seems to vary wildly from 100 up to 750 mg per day (of course this doesn't count the filler that a company may put in their product). I'm guessing that one would need to take 750 mg or more to get a noticeable effect.
Here's a few threads with some subjective reports on what some have noticed to be effective:
http://www.mindandmu...showtopic=34528
http://forum.bodybui...php?t=112425011

With that being said, can anyone find the relative portency of this double methylated variation of PEA vs. regular PEA?


Phenadrine:
This "Phenadrine" seems too heavily hyped to be true. I'm thinking that the product products ingrediants sound interesting though...

The problem with this supplement seems to be that like most heavily advertised proprietary combo pills it doesn't list the amounts of each ingrediant that's in it. Instead it simply says 750 mg of everything combined together. Seeing as how there's 60 pills per container, this makes me wonder how much of this "N-Methyl-Beta-Methylphenylethylamine HCL" is actually in each capsule.

On the container it says 1 serving=1 capsule. I wonder how many capsules you'll have to take to get a significant effect right after taking it (none of this wait a few months crap). I'm thinking the best approach to testing this ingrediant out would be to order it in a bulk powder so that it's easier to manage dosage and report back on the subjective effect.

Unfortunately, I couldn't find any nootropic company on the net that seems to be offering this ingrediant in a bulk product (if any one finds one feel free to post it). However, there are some chemical supply companies in which this can be purchased. One that I found while searching online is at:
http://www.yongyi-bi...tail.php?id=188

I filled out the form asking them for a quote on 225g, 500g (roughly 1 pound), and 1 kg. I also asked for a COA (certificate of analysis) that they may have as well. I'll get back to you on the price quote if I hear back from them. There are probably a bunch of other chemical supply companies out there as well with different variations of PEA. So far from what I've read on this thread, the "N-Methyl-Beta-Methylphenylethylamine HCL" variation of PEA seems to be the best. Who knows? Maybe there's even a better variation out there that can be synthesized...

Please note, that I'm not supporting anyone ordering any conrolled substances. I'm just saying that if anyone finds anything new feel free to post it so that we can look at it in more detail.

[Pike]

for those who don't know.... "amphetamine" is the abbreviated version of alpha-methylphenylethylamine... and meth is... well you guessed it, double methylated.


well, i guess the "new" stim doesn't seem so new anymore.

edit: i just noticed the part about it being bonded to an HCl salt, which i just thought to be hilarious. after reading that part, i know without a doubt that it's a bogus product.

Edited by Pike, 22 July 2009 - 02:12 AM.

[ajnast4r]

due to the risk of death.

lol!

[kilgoretrout]

PEA vs. N-Methyl-Beta-Methylphenylethylamine HCL:
The regular dosage for PEA seems to vary...
There's no real official daily value established for PEA so the number seems to vary wildly from 100 up to 750 mg per day (of course this doesn't count the filler that a company may put in their product). I'm guessing that one would need to take 750 mg or more to get a noticeable effect.

Thank you VERY much! This is the sort of response/discussion I was originally hoping for. Couple things:

First, isn't taking oral PEA completely useless? I do recall seeing it touted as one of the ingredients in chocolate that makes us feel good and become "addicted" to it, but from everything I've seen any and all bare PEA that you ingest is just totally destroyed by digestion. Yet I still see all kinds of supplements that include it. And it sounds like you think it might not be totally decimated, and some actually reach the bloodstream in that kind of dose? Does it cross the BBB?

Second, there are dozens of these preparations for sale - encapsulated, bottled, slickly labeled, and heavily advertised - by a variety of major supplement manufacturers, being resold by thousands of stores and online sites. Which is why I find it so hard to swollow the interpretation of their status as instantly illegal Schedule I amphetamine analogues. Are we to expect to wake up one day to news of hundreds of supplement executives store owners being dragged off to jail by the DEA?

For instance "Adderex-SR" which touts itself as a "neutraceutical" replacement/alternative to the ADD drug Adderall, containing:

• 1/6 Beta-Methylphenylethylamine Tartrate
• 1/6 N-Methyl-beta-Phenylethylamine Hcl
• 1/6 N-Benzyl-alpha-Phenylethylamine sulphate • 1/6 L-Lysine/N-Methyl-beta-Methylphenylethylamine Hcl
• 1/6 Alpha-Phenylethylamine Hcl
• 1/6 R-beta-Methylphenylethylamine Hcl

With lots of supportive blather at http://www.hitech-ph.../adderex-sr.htm which may all be BS so far as I know.

There are many other such pills, from an array of makers.

Although you can find user reports of many of these type things claiming very potent effects, it could be the case that those are fake plants by the manufacturers, and that while looking good on paper these companies lawyers have done their jobs and in fact most of these things for whatever reason have nill effect in the body, which is why the DEA doesn't bother with them, and all the techno-babble is just a big steaming pile of marketing hokum.

Like I said, I guess the only way to tell is to fork over the $30-$60 for a bottle of one and see what it does.

[yowza]

Thank you VERY much! This is the sort of response/discussion I was originally hoping for. Couple things:

First, isn't taking oral PEA completely useless? I do recall seeing it touted as one of the ingredients in chocolate that makes us feel good and become "addicted" to it, but from everything I've seen any and all bare PEA that you ingest is just totally destroyed by digestion. Yet I still see all kinds of supplements that include it. And it sounds like you think it might not be totally decimated, and some actually reach the bloodstream in that kind of dose? Does it cross the BBB?

Second, there are dozens of these preparations for sale - encapsulated, bottled, slickly labeled, and heavily advertised - by a variety of major supplement manufacturers, being resold by thousands of stores and online sites. Which is why I find it so hard to swollow the interpretation of their status as instantly illegal Schedule I amphetamine analogues. Are we to expect to wake up one day to news of hundreds of supplement executives store owners being dragged off to jail by the DEA?

For instance "Adderex-SR" which touts itself as a "neutraceutical" replacement/alternative to the ADD drug Adderall, containing:

• 1/6 Beta-Methylphenylethylamine Tartrate
• 1/6 N-Methyl-beta-Phenylethylamine Hcl
• 1/6 N-Benzyl-alpha-Phenylethylamine sulphate • 1/6 L-Lysine/N-Methyl-beta-Methylphenylethylamine Hcl
• 1/6 Alpha-Phenylethylamine Hcl
• 1/6 R-beta-Methylphenylethylamine Hcl

With lots of supportive blather at http://www.hitech-ph.../adderex-sr.htm which may all be BS so far as I know.

There are many other such pills, from an array of makers.

Although you can find user reports of many of these type things claiming very potent effects, it could be the case that those are fake plants by the manufacturers, and that while looking good on paper these companies lawyers have done their jobs and in fact most of these things for whatever reason have nill effect in the body, which is why the DEA doesn't bother with them, and all the techno-babble is just a big steaming pile of marketing hokum.

Like I said, I guess the only way to tell is to fork over the $30-$60 for a bottle of one and see what it does.

Thank You!

The best way to tell would be a source to find the double methylated form of PEA or derivitives in bulk while anything that has the word alpha (amphetamine analogues) in it's chemical name perhaps?
The capsule forms (sold on the market) probably have miniscule amounts in their products to tell the effect of these chemicals. I don't know about adderex but it's funny that phenidrine doesn't list the amounts for each ingrediant.

That's why I posted the bulk supplier link for for the double methylated variation of beta PEA (although I'm not encouraging anybody to order from this without first ensuring that there's a proper COA). Those other chemicals in phenidrine or adderex can probably be bought seperately as well. This is kind of expensive for a supplement such as this but online noot companies should take note. Maybe that guy from Smartpowders or another online retailer who posts on these boards would want to set up puchase options to make things easier rather than ordering from a chem. supplier oneself.

As for PEA being an amp. that's all hogwash. PEA naturally occurs in the body and is a trace amine of dopamine kind of like how tryptamine is a trace amine of serotonin (for breif summary on trace amine see http://en.wikipedia....iki/Trace_amine). In terms of the dopamine pathway, you've got the precursors of phenylalanine-->tyrosine-->l-dopa-->dopamine. What PEA is, is a part (but not all of the structure of dopamine); PEA is synthesized in the body in a seperate pathway from phenylalanine it appears.

People like Dr. Knoll (guy who discovered Deprenyl) have studied "CAE" (catecholamine activity enhancer) for quite some time. They're trying to develop drugs (like BPAP or PPAP that unlike Deprenyl focus mainly on the CAE rather than MOAB inhibition effect). The target seems to develop a drug that'll work via a different mechanism than agonism or reuptake inhibition (rough kinds of interference) and more thru a CAE type of mechanism (work via an electrochemical impulse gradiant in reaction to internal or external influences rather than 1 flatlined effect of stimulation). It's interesting stuff to read up on.

[Pike]

PEA is just the "phetamine" portion of "amphetamine." i didn't say PEA is an amp. i'm saying that this "double methylated PEA" is remarkably close in structure to meth.

here, decide for yourself.
Methamphetamine = n-methyl-alpha-methylphenylethylamine
"double methylated PEA" = n-methyl-beta-methylphenylethylamine

IMO, BPAP and PPAP are quite remarkable compounds, but this double-methylated-pea stuff is bogus. also, bonding the PEA, an alkaloid, to an HCl salt (hydrochloric acid is the same kind of acid in your stomach) would only lead to increased excretion IMO.

[yowza]

PEA is just the "phetamine" portion of "amphetamine." i didn't say PEA is an amp. i'm saying that this "double methylated PEA" is remarkably close in structure to meth.

here, decide for yourself.
Methamphetamine = n-methyl-alpha-methylphenylethylamine
"double methylated PEA" = n-methyl-beta-methylphenylethylamine

Looking at it from a purely chemistry standpoint, the 2 seem remarkably similar. PEA is a naturally occuring biogenic amine (meaning an amine that is naturally produced in body) similar in structure to amphetamine. The 2 (amphetamine and PEA) look remarkably similar when comparing IUPAC nomenclature (chemical name in case anyone else is wondering), which you have done above However, I'm wondering if there are more profound differences that what it would seem simply checking the IUPAC names. I wonder what how things would compare if one were to check the specific structual differences, Smilie arrangement, basic chemical formula...?

PEA (being a trace amine of dopamine) is a basis for altering and creating many kinds of drugs. This herring to see someone making a double methylated variation of PEA. From just my general insight (take this with a shaker full of salt if you'd like), amphetamine based compounds have the alpha in their structure; something that causes this PEA like substance to be overbearing in the body causing widespread chemical disruption, which of course includes potent agonism, re-uptake inhibition, and increased release of certain transmitter chemicals. Like an Amphetamine, PEA can cause the release of dopamine and cause anxiouty in high amounts. There's electrical impulse stimulation from PEA but this doesn't seem to overpower the checks/balances in the body like Amphetamines. Unlike the widespread disruption that comes with the amphetamines the specific chemical variations to PEA (found in adderex and phenedrine proprietary supplements) seem mainly to just enhance PEA's ability to not get broken down as quickly and to cross into the brain easier. These supplements seem to function much like the PEA supplement and not really cause widespread chemical disruption.

IMO, BPAP and PPAP are quite remarkable compounds, but this double-methylated-pea stuff is bogus. also, bonding the PEA, an alkaloid, to an HCl salt (hydrochloric acid is the same kind of acid in your stomach) would only lead to increased excretion IMO.

I agree that the HCL part seems like a bad idea. I'm not sure why they'd put this in with it. Probably since HCL is added to a lot of vitamins and it's some sort of boneheaded idea that this will help with digestion for PEA.

In regards to BPAP and PPAP, have you or know anyone whose tried these specific compounds? They're difficult to measure and must be taken in micrograms (which means you'd need to know how to liquid dose it and not impulsively take too much). There are people out there that have tried this. It's supposedly preferable to Deprenyl but hasn't been put into development for release into the market at least here in the States. I've made some posts on this particular compound in the past... It's quite interesting.

[deeptrance]

4 years after this thread became dormant, I'm here to add a link to a very simple analysis of the compound in question:
http://hightowerphar...erivatives.html

It does sound like an interesting stimulant, certainly more interesting than PEA.

[Ultravioletbllc]

This type of childlike banter is so blahzay ...... You shouldn't be on longecity too plan Internet asshole IMHO

Play** until I get the iPad back expect the sp errors that's what a 3.5 " screen will do ya for

[deeptrance]

This type of childlike banter is so blahzay ...... You shouldn't be on longecity too plan Internet asshole IMHO

That makes no sense --- Who are you talking to and what are you talking about? What does "too plan Internet asshole" mean?

[Galantamine]

4 years after this thread became dormant, I'm here to add a link to a very simple analysis of the compound in question:
http://hightowerphar...erivatives.html

It does sound like an interesting stimulant, certainly more interesting than PEA.

Technically, that blog is about N-ethyl-beta-methyl-PEA, but I will be happy to write a blog about this particular compound. I'll update this thread when it is finished.