ALCAR dosage

I want to start taking ALCAR to improve energy levels and alertness along with 300-600 mg ALA. I want to take 1.5 grams per day of a powder (not capsules) and I really would prefer to take it just once, in the morning, instead of spreading it out into doses throughout the day. Should I just buck up and take it throughout the day or is it fine to take it in one dollop in the morning? If all I'll get is a sore stomach, that's fine with me. and is it fine to take the ALA at the same time?

I want to start taking ALCAR to improve energy levels and alertness along with 300-600 mg ALA. I want to take 1.5 grams per day of a powder (not capsules) and I really would prefer to take it just once, in the morning, instead of spreading it out into doses throughout the day. Should I just buck up and take it throughout the day or is it fine to take it in one dollop in the morning? If all I'll get is a sore stomach, that's fine with me. and is it fine to take the ALA at the same time?

I take a half gram (capsule) in the morning and a half before dinner. I love the effect that it has on energy and endurance, and even mood, for that matter. All this and it's not speedy. I don't think it has to be spread out in dribs and drabs, if that's what you mean, but personally I would split the dose. If you take a compound like this all at once, you are going to have peaks and troughs in your blood levels. A sore stomach is evidence that something is wrong, and shouldn't be willingly accepted. There is a large body of internet lore that says you have to take ALA with ALCAR. This is based on very high dosage regimes in Ames' early work on ALCAR, and turns out not to be a problem at low doses. I have stopped taking ALA, personally.

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Ditto what niner said about ALCAR; I take 750 mg in the morning, but might start dividing the dose. I've also stopped taking ALA.

I want to start taking ALCAR to improve energy levels and alertness along with 300-600 mg ALA. I want to take 1.5 grams per day of a powder (not capsules) and I really would prefer to take it just once, in the morning, instead of spreading it out into doses throughout the day. Should I just buck up and take it throughout the day or is it fine to take it in one dollop in the morning? If all I'll get is a sore stomach, that's fine with me. and is it fine to take the ALA at the same time?

I remember seeing a couple articles, referencing published research (some time ago so I don't have refs handy) that said the positive effects on mood/wakefulness/etc. really do not take effect until you take 2000mg at once. So that is what I use when I use it, on an empty stomach of course, and it does seem unquestionably anti-fatigue and wakefulness-promoting at this dose.

Thanks for the input here! Why the negativity about ALA, though? I know this is simply anecdotal evidence and therefor suspect, but I know two people who absolutely hated ALCAR before they added in ALA. One said it made him feel increasingly ill and strung-out over the course of a month until he added the ALA in. Even if I dropped ALCAR (because of the price - I'm working on a shoestring budget here, even if I order in bulk) I would keep ALA.

I remember seeing a couple articles, referencing published research (some time ago so I don't have refs handy) that said the positive effects on mood/wakefulness/etc. really do not take effect until you take 2000mg at once. So that is what I use when I use it, on an empty stomach of course, and it does seem unquestionably anti-fatigue and wakefulness-promoting at this dose.

This is exactly what I want...I've spent the last year doing nothing but taking care of a sick relative and working what amounts to hours of data entry on the side, I am completely fatigued mentally and physically. Anything else you take that improves your energy and functioning?

Thanks for the input here! Why the negativity about ALA, though? I know this is simply anecdotal evidence and therefor suspect, but I know two people who absolutely hated ALCAR before they added in ALA. One said it made him feel increasingly ill and strung-out over the course of a month until he added the ALA in. Even if I dropped ALCAR (because of the price - I'm working on a shoestring budget here, even if I order in bulk) I would keep ALA.

That sounds exactly like a placebo effect, based on a lingering concern that ALCAR is bad for you if you don't have ALA. The placebo effect is extremely powerful. My negativity on ALA is twofold. For one thing, I found that it was causing my blood pressure to be too low, and that doesn't feel good. The other thing was some disturbing research that reproted that even temporary use of ALA would permanently prevent rodents from benefiting from CR. I'd still like to see it confirmed, but it suggests some possible epigenetic effects that I'd rather not mess with. Further, I found that removing antioxidants around workouts led to a significant strength breakthrough. I am pretty much off the "antioxidant" bandwagon.

I remember seeing a couple articles, referencing published research (some time ago so I don't have refs handy) that said the positive effects on mood/wakefulness/etc. really do not take effect until you take 2000mg at once. So that is what I use when I use it, on an empty stomach of course, and it does seem unquestionably anti-fatigue and wakefulness-promoting at this dose.

This is exactly what I want...I've spent the last year doing nothing but taking care of a sick relative and working what amounts to hours of data entry on the side, I am completely fatigued mentally and physically. Anything else you take that improves your energy and functioning?

Try to fit in some exercise. I would still start with a smaller dose, and see how that feels first.

You do not have to take them together but there are research showing improved effects from taking both.

"Most notably, we found that when combined, LA and ALC worked at 100 to 1000 fold lower concentrations than they did individually."
http://www3.intersci...748191/abstract

"Treatments with the combination of LA and ALC at concentrations of 0.1, 1 and 10 micromol/l for 24 h significantly increased mitochondrial mass, expression of mitochondrial DNA, mitochondrial complexes, oxygen consumption and fatty acid oxidation in 3T3L1 adipocytes... ...However, the treatments with LA or ALC alone at the same concentrations showed little effect on mitochondrial function and biogenesis."
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18026715

"ALCAR+LA also increased ambulatory activity in both young and old rats; moreover, the improvement was significantly greater (P = 0.03) in old versus young animals and also greater when compared with old rats fed ALCAR or LA alone... ....Feeding ALCAR in combination with LA increased metabolism and lowered oxidative stress more than either compound alone.
http://www.pnas.org/.../99/4/1870.full

There is enough evidence of synergy between ALA and ALCAR for me to persist with ALA.

Lately I have been only been taking Alcar Arginate, about 2 to 3 grams a day split into two doses, plus about 500mg of ALA, split into two. I'm going to switch to a combined alcar and arginate dose to hedge my bets as I don't notice any differences between the arginate and the normal ALCAR.

Is anyone going to do any studies on ALCAR Arginate, because the claims of NGF like effects seem pretty far fetched, but great if they could be proved?

You do not have to take them together but there are research showing improved effects from taking both.

"Most notably, we found that when combined, LA and ALC worked at 100 to 1000 fold lower concentrations than they did individually."
http://www3.intersci...748191/abstract

"Treatments with the combination of LA and ALC at concentrations of 0.1, 1 and 10 micromol/l for 24 h significantly increased mitochondrial mass, expression of mitochondrial DNA, mitochondrial complexes, oxygen consumption and fatty acid oxidation in 3T3L1 adipocytes... ...However, the treatments with LA or ALC alone at the same concentrations showed little effect on mitochondrial function and biogenesis."
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18026715

"ALCAR+LA also increased ambulatory activity in both young and old rats; moreover, the improvement was significantly greater (P = 0.03) in old versus young animals and also greater when compared with old rats fed ALCAR or LA alone... ....Feeding ALCAR in combination with LA increased metabolism and lowered oxidative stress more than either compound alone.
http://www.pnas.org/.../99/4/1870.full

What does this mean as far as the minimum effective dose in humans?

You do not have to take them together but there are research showing improved effects from taking both.

"Most notably, we found that when combined, LA and ALC worked at 100 to 1000 fold lower concentrations than they did individually."
http://www3.intersci...748191/abstract

"Treatments with the combination of LA and ALC at concentrations of 0.1, 1 and 10 micromol/l for 24 h significantly increased mitochondrial mass, expression of mitochondrial DNA, mitochondrial complexes, oxygen consumption and fatty acid oxidation in 3T3L1 adipocytes... ...However, the treatments with LA or ALC alone at the same concentrations showed little effect on mitochondrial function and biogenesis."
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18026715

"ALCAR+LA also increased ambulatory activity in both young and old rats; moreover, the improvement was significantly greater (P = 0.03) in old versus young animals and also greater when compared with old rats fed ALCAR or LA alone... ....Feeding ALCAR in combination with LA increased metabolism and lowered oxidative stress more than either compound alone.
http://www.pnas.org/.../99/4/1870.full

What does this mean as far as the minimum effective dose in humans?

Most human placebo-controlled studies have studied ala or carnitine alone. Lots of cell and animal studies on the combination but not many human. Here is one (500mg alcar + 200 mg ala) x 2:
http://www3.intersci...499177/abstract

Interesting because I have not seen that either alcar or lipoic acid alone improves blood pressure. So may be a true example of the very much overused word synergism.

"Most notably, we found that when combined, LA and ALC worked at 100 to 1000 fold lower concentrations than they did individually."
http://www3.intersci...748191/abstract

This one is "in a chronic rotenone-induced cellular model of PD", so the relevance to humans is unknown.

"Treatments with the combination of LA and ALC at concentrations of 0.1, 1 and 10 micromol/l for 24 h significantly increased mitochondrial mass, expression of mitochondrial DNA, mitochondrial complexes, oxygen consumption and fatty acid oxidation in 3T3L1 adipocytes... ...However, the treatments with LA or ALC alone at the same concentrations showed little effect on mitochondrial function and biogenesis."
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18026715

Another in vitro study. Is it evidence of synergy? I suppose, but it's very difficult to translate this to humans.

"ALCAR+LA also increased ambulatory activity in both young and old rats; moreover, the improvement was significantly greater (P = 0.03) in old versus young animals and also greater when compared with old rats fed ALCAR or LA alone... ....Feeding ALCAR in combination with LA increased metabolism and lowered oxidative stress more than either compound alone.
http://www.pnas.org/.../99/4/1870.full

At least these are animals, but here's the dosing regimen: acetyl-l-carnitine [ALCAR, 1.5% (wt/vol) in the drinking water] and/or ®-α-lipoic acid [LA, 0.5% (wt/wt) in the chow]. They were F344 rats. I think that translates to a pretty high dose in humans.

Antoher cell study showing superior effect with combination:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18284845

Another rat study with the same conclusion:
http://www.pnas.org/...4/2356.abstract

There are many more studies finding very intersesting effects from the combination but which do not study carnitine or lipoic acid alone. Some examples:
http://www.fasebj.or...ract/21/13/3756
http://www.sciencedi...3ff065823e456ac
http://www.sciencedi...3a6d012524e4420
http://www.sciencedi...9b5d89425b1b57f

A critical comment on the human hypertension study. Among other complaints:
"There were no significant effects on forearm flow-mediated vasodilatation or on biochemical markers of oxidative stress and inflammation, namely serum C-reactive protein or urinary F2-isoprostanes, or on total and low- density and high-density lipoprotein cholesterol, triglycerides, fasting glucose, or plasma insulin." "Most of the subjects were on antihypertensive therapy. Some classes of BP-lowering drugs may themselves have antioxidant effects (eg, angiotensin-converting enzyme inhibitors) and might have skewed the results. Also, withdrawing antihypertensive agents for 24 hours before measurement of endothelial function is ineffective, especially for those drugs whose receptor occupancy duration may be much longer than that.
https://www.lejacq.c...75.2007.06565.x

Edited by Blue, 19 August 2009 - 03:33 PM.

Again, I don't have study references to back this up, but this is based on my own experiments with various doses (sometimes depending on how much I had left!), and what I thought had long been accepted guidance for using ALCarnitine as an anti-fatigue agent:

- I started using it way before ALA was around, and as most recommendations suggest, less than 2g felt perhaps a little difference, but once the dose hits 2g or more, there is a very pronounced fatigue/sleepiness erasing effect going on... nothing speedy, just eliminating tiredness & fatigue

- Not worried about the need to take it with ALA... could this be advice suggested by makers of ALA? Even if it does promote some free-radical production via promoting increased metabolism in certain cells, I am pickled with so many other antioxidants and always have been (C, E, carotenoids, green tea, etc etc) that I am confident I am covered.

- When I started taking daily ALA, I did not notice any change in the effects of ALCarn when used.

So I would say:
- use 2g at a time for an almost certain effect you are looking for., try up to 4g if that does not work in escalating amounts. I am 99.99% confident it will not harm you in any way.
- sure, use ALA for added protection from hypothetical free-radical generation, or to potentially boost its effects; ALA is good for you in so many ways, you ought to be taking it regardless
- I don't see any reason to wait for some "definitive conclusions" to appear... they never do... both things are going to benefit you and will absolutely certainly not harm you, so use ALCarn at 2g for anti-fatigue, and ALA at recommended doses.

I want to start taking ALCAR to improve energy levels and alertness along with 300-600 mg ALA. I want to take 1.5 grams per day of a powder (not capsules) and I really would prefer to take it just once, in the morning, instead of spreading it out into doses throughout the day. Should I just buck up and take it throughout the day or is it fine to take it in one dollop in the morning? If all I'll get is a sore stomach, that's fine with me. and is it fine to take the ALA at the same time?

Powder form is acidic and will eat away your teeth enamel (it also has very unpleasant sour, vinegary taste). The most important element is to pick a reputable manufacturer (such as Sigma Tau, alternate trademark Biosint, e.g. found in Dr's Best, Jarrow... and other more expensive brands). I have noticed dramatic difference in the effectiveness between Sigma Tau vs less expensive non-name (mostly Chinese) brands. I tried using it with ALA, but that gives me spaced out feeling (in fact, ALA in any form or combination), so I use ALCAR without ALA (2x500mg with 6-7 hours spacing, along with 1-2x50 mcg HupA). Instead of ALA I use Vit C, E, 50mcg selenium/day and cocoa powder, to deal with any potential excess in oxidative stress from ALCAR.

Again, I don't have study references to back this up, but this is based on my own experiments with various doses (sometimes depending on how much I had left!), and what I thought had long been accepted guidance for using ALCarnitine as an anti-fatigue agent:

...I am 99.99% confident it will not harm you in any way.

... and will absolutely certainly not harm you

Your own experiments (n=1, no controls) don't seem like they support these conclusions, particularly for other readers. Isn't this faith-based medicine?

Yeah, he's out of control. Excuse the pun.

Again, I don't have study references to back this up, but this is based on my own experiments with various doses (sometimes depending on how much I had left!), and what I thought had long been accepted guidance for using ALCarnitine as an anti-fatigue agent:

...I am 99.99% confident it will not harm you in any way.

... and will absolutely certainly not harm you

Your own experiments (n=1, no controls) don't seem like they support these conclusions, particularly for other readers. Isn't this faith-based medicine?

I haven't seen any data ever suggesting these supplements in these doses pose any sort of danger or have caused anyone any harm, have you?

There is a huge amount of experience with these substances that have been around for a VERY long time. (Why pretend you are unaware of that, except for an excuse to start an argument?) Very common recommendations as well as discussion of peoples' experiences with these things at these levels go back a very long time in many different forums.

Edit: Of-topic discussion about imminst sponsor policy can be continued here.

Edited by Brainbox, 20 August 2009 - 05:47 PM.
Of-topic remarks moved to another topic.

Yeah, he's out of control. Excuse the pun.

I believe I first read about ALC, and the guidance that about 2g was needed for full anti-fatigue effects, about its safety and benefits, in 1977's seminal "Life Extension: A Practical Scientific Approach" by Durk Pearson and Sandy Shaw, that pretty much STARTED the ENTIRE life-extension and nootropoic arenas.

So this is not exactly, ahem, radical new information.

Just wanted to put a specific date tag and original source for my remarks... and say how silly it is to suggest they constitute dangerous off-the-wall out-of-control "medical advice".

Edited by kilgoretrout, 20 August 2009 - 06:36 PM.

I haven't seen any data ever suggesting these supplements in these doses pose any sort of danger or have caused anyone any harm, have you?

There is a huge amount of experience with these substances that have been around for a VERY long time. (Why pretend you are unaware of that, except for an excuse to start an argument?) Very common recommendations as well as discussion of peoples' experiences with these things at these levels go back a very long time in many different forums.

I'm just saying that you don't have much of a basis to guarantee their safety. I'm not saying that these compounds will definitely hurt a person, I'm saying we don't know if they will or not. I'm an ALCAR user, like lots of us. I quit using ALA over concerns about epigenetic modification (at least that's what it sounded like) from a mouse study, and perhaps more importantly because I found that it was making me a little hypotensive. Also I don't want to take potent antioxidants around my workouts.

ALA and ALCAR, taken at the kinds of doses you're talking about, should be thought of as the powerful drugs that they are. You're right that there has been a lot of experience with these agents in humans. I think ALCAR has a very good safety profile, at least at low doses. ALA, I'm not as confident about.

2-4 grams of ALCAR would put me into an absolute stupor. I get overstimulated from anything over 500 mg.

Please be careful and take recommendations with a grain of salt, OP.

Thanks alot for your detailed personal perspective. Interesting and useful, once you put it that way. It's an actual dialogue now, which is great. (I too find quippy one liners tough to resist, though I also tend to be excessively verbose and can rarely stop at the one line... sorry about that.. please take me with a grain or 2 or 3 of salt!)

Any references to that study that bothered you?

Searching for ["epigenetic modification" acetyl carnitine] showed a couple results, but these were obviously not about ALC causing any sort of damage... rather they were about using ALC as an attempted TREATMENT for the genetic hyper-methylation that occurs in Fragile-X syndrome in human male subjects (which results in various forms of mental problems). The ALC did reduce the methylation, but to a marginal degree that was not seen as useful, if I am understanding it correctly.

A double-blind, placebo-controlled 2008 study was also revealed which showed benefits to ALC treatment of ADHD symptoms in fragile-X boys, actually concluding it "represents a safe alternative to the use of stimulant drugs for the treatment of ADHD in FXS children"

Wonderful!

It would be interesting to find out what the daily dose was. Because as the study was a year long, if the dose was 1-2 grams/day, is that enough of an endorsement for you to accept occasional use of 2g of ALC by adults for fatigue-reduction as "proven safe"?

See, its things like this that made me extremely confident in making my original remarks that it is almost totally certainly not going to cause someone harm. This is only the latest study. I am sure you could find quite a few long term studies over the past 30 years that used multi-gram levels of ALC over lengthy periods of time, in order to study this that and whatever, none of which has ever shown any damage as a result. If they had we would certainly know about it by now.


http://www.biomedexp...it_hyperactivit

2008: Torrioli M Giulia; Vernacotola Silvia; Peruzzi Laura; Tabolacci Elisabetta; Mila Montserrat; Militerni Roberto; Musumeci Sebastiano; Ramos Feliciano J; Frontera Marìa; Sorge Giovanni; Marzullo Elisabetta; Romeo Giusi; Vallee Louis; Veneselli Edvige; Cocchi Elena; Garbarino Eleonora; Moscato Umberto; Chiurazzi Pietro; D'Iddio Stefania; Calvani Menotti; Neri Giovanni

A double-blind, parallel, multicenter comparison of L-acetylcarnitine with placebo on the attention deficit hyperactivity disorder in fragile X syndrome boys.

American journal of medical genetics. Part A 2008;146(7):803-12.

Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) is a frequent behavioral problem in young boys with fragile X syndrome (FXS), and its treatment is critical for improving social ability. The short-term efficacy of stimulant medications like methylphenidate (MPH) is well established in children with ADHD. FXS boys treated with MPH have improved attention span and socialization skills; however their mood becomes unstable at higher doses. Therefore, alternative pharmacological treatment of ADHD symptoms is desirable. A recent study showed that carnitine has a beneficial effect on the hyperactive-impulsive behavior in boys with ADHD without side effects. Our previous placebo-controlled trial indicated that L-acetylcarnitine (LAC) reduces hyperactivity in FXS boys. The objective of this study was to determine the efficacy of LAC in a larger sample of FXS boys with ADHD. The study design was randomized, double blind placebo controlled, parallel, and multicenter (with eight centers involved in Italy, France, and Spain). Sixty-three FXS males with ADHD (aged 6-13 years) were enrolled; 7 patients dropped out, 56 completed the one-year treatment, and 51 were included in the statistical analysis. Both groups improved their behavior, showing that psychosocial intervention has a significant therapeutic effect. However, we observed a stronger reduction of hyperactivity and improvement of social behavior in patients treated with LAC, compared with the placebo group, as determined by the Conners' Global Index Parents and the Vineland Adaptive Behavior Scale. Our results show that LAC (20-50 mg/kg/day) represents a safe alternative to the use of stimulant drugs for the treatment of ADHD in FXS children.

Edited by kilgoretrout, 20 August 2009 - 08:46 PM.

The mouse study regarding LA and CR are discussed here:
http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=22205
http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=23646

Extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidence. Until much independent replication using the same and similar models extraordinary claims are more likely a mistake or have much simpler explanation due to some confounding factor. Claims that a substance will lock in the effects of a dietary pattern and make the following lifelong diet largely irrelevant is certainly extraordinary.

Some studies find that lipoic acid extends lifespan. Not sure we should ignore these studies and the ones finding beneficial effects from adding it to carnitine and instead believe the one above:
http://cat.inist.fr/...cpsidt=18469700
http://www.pnas.org/...1/35/12980.full

Regarding ordinary safety lipoic acid has been tested in placebo-controlled, multicenter, double-blind, human study for 7 months in a high dose of 600mgx3 without causing significant adverse reactions. Lots of widely popular supplements like resveratrol has nothing similar.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10480774

The mouse study regarding LA and CR are discussed here:
http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=22205
http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=23646

Extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidence. Until much independent replication using the same and similar models extraordinary claims are more likely a mistake or have much simpler explanation due to some confounding factor. Claims that a substance will lock in the effects of a dietary pattern and make the following lifelong diet largely irrelevant is certainly extraordinary.

Some studies find that lipoic acid extends lifespan. Not sure we should ignore these studies and the ones finding beneficial effects from adding it to carnitine and instead believe the one above:
http://cat.inist.fr/...cpsidt=18469700
http://www.pnas.org/...1/35/12980.full

Regarding ordinary safety lipoic acid has been tested in placebo-controlled, multicenter, double-blind, human study for 7 months in a high dose of 600mgx3 without causing significant adverse reactions. Lots of widely popular supplements like resveratrol has nothing similar.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10480774

I thought the "extraordinary claim" was the guarantee of safety that kilgore was giving. I hope that the rat data turns out to be wrong. If I thought ALA was doing something great for me, maybe I'd be more inclined to ignore the rat data. It's good to see ALA used in a high dose regime with a decent (though not large) sample size, and at least not see any overt adverse effects. This is still not a guarantee of safety. You are correct that this more evidence than exists for resveratrol, though not wildly more, based on Sirtris' clinical trials. The thing is, I don't recall anyone claiming that resveratrol was guaranteed safe for everyone.

Found some more on safety:

A two year study.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10499773

"Its use and clinical investigation for managing diabetic neuropathy have been ongoing in Germany for more than 30 years. German clinical and post-marketing surveillance studies have revealed a highly favorable safety profile with few serious adverse side effects."
http://www.wnpharmac...oduct_306_2.pdf

If I thought ALA was doing something great for me, maybe I'd be more inclined to ignore the rat data.

Already linked to many rat studies finding beneficial effects. Cannot ignore those if not ignoring the CR + LA rat study.

See also:
http://lpi.oregonsta...r/othernuts/la/

If I thought ALA was doing something great for me, maybe I'd be more inclined to ignore the rat data.

Already linked to many rat studies finding beneficial effects. Cannot ignore those if not ignoring the CR + LA rat study.

Where? I see drosophila and C. elegans above, and if you don't mind, I think I'll ignore those. Regardless, it takes less to make me not take something than it takes to make me take it. The inability to prove a negative causes those to have entirely different standards of evidence. In other words, it's easy to demonstrate a hazard, very hard to prove safety.

If I thought ALA was doing something great for me, maybe I'd be more inclined to ignore the rat data.

Already linked to many rat studies finding beneficial effects. Cannot ignore those if not ignoring the CR + LA rat study.

Where? I see drosophila and C. elegans above, and if you don't mind, I think I'll ignore those. Regardless, it takes less to make me not take something than it takes to make me take it. The inability to prove a negative causes those to have entirely different standards of evidence. In other words, it's easy to demonstrate a hazard, very hard to prove safety.

One the first page I listed several examples. Probabilistically there is no difference between risks and rewards (although there certainly are many illogical ones in human psychology). Doing nothing is also an action.

Probabilistically there is no difference between risks and rewards (although there certainly are many illogical ones in human psychology). Doing nothing is also an action.

Now you are veering into a serious misunderstanding of what safety is all about. Most sane people rank damage to their health as more bad than an improvement would be good. Obviously, magnitudes of these effects matter greatly, but the worst case scenario is a hell of a lot more bad than the best case scenario is good. Honestly Blue, I think you argue here just to be contrary (which in fact you recently admitted in another thread). In the resveratrol thread, you were arguing for an extreme level of conservatism, and I thought that you were just conservative by nature. Now you are taking the anti-safety road. It's not consistent.

Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for SUPPLEMENTS (in thread) to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

Probabilistically there is no difference between risks and rewards (although there certainly are many illogical ones in human psychology). Doing nothing is also an action.

Now you are veering into a serious misunderstanding of what safety is all about. Most sane people rank damage to their health as more bad than an improvement would be good. Obviously, magnitudes of these effects matter greatly, but the worst case scenario is a hell of a lot more bad than the best case scenario is good. Honestly Blue, I think you argue here just to be contrary (which in fact you recently admitted in another thread). In the resveratrol thread, you were arguing for an extreme level of conservatism, and I thought that you were just conservative by nature. Now you are taking the anti-safety road. It's not consistent.

I could as well argue that advocating reseveratrol with one human study while rejectíng la with numerous human studies and decades of human use is inconsistent.

Resveratrol looks good against atherosclerosis in rats. But wait, here is a rabbit study finding bad effects from resveratroll:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....1?dopt=Abstract

Are humans more like rats or more like rabbits? Or not like either one? Does this apply to all the other resveratrol rat studies? Should we reject all resveratrol use because of this study?

If you are practicing CR then the objectionable rat study is irrelevant or rather on the contrary it finds evidence for taking la together with CR for added effect. On the other hand, if you do practice CR then it is very dubious that a CR mimetic like resveratrol will add anything.